Trade & FA 2024-25:

[KillerLeft]

In regards to Thybulle, I also pointed out that he takes more attempts than DJJ (even after DJJ raised his attempts by 50% here).  Thybulle actually shoots more often than all of DJJ, Green and Exum, and I would expect that to increase if he were playing with Luka (although I do realize that part of that is because he doesn't do much else offensively).

Well now, THAT is information I hadn't caught up with yet. Thanks! 

That does move the needle some, actually.

[DanSchwartzgan]

The idea of using Green to clear space OR to be a trade chip has been well discussed here, and probably will continue to be. But we have to factor in that THJ is gone for sure, so if Green is outgoing, then it's both THJ and Green outgoing, and in the big scheme of things, it doesn't matter which you do 1st (THJ or Green) or which one yields a player and which one yields room -- either way you end up with the ability to sign DJJ and add another player with a salary total between the 2 of about 28.6M.

A couple of ways in which it might matter….thus my reason for exploring it further.

Green is slightly easier to move in June which would allow you to deal with Jones immediately.  I don’t trade Green for air and I don’t do it at all unless I’ve got the second deal (THJ for improvement) lined up already or I’m executing it simultaneously.

THJ outgoing gets you a higher paid player in a < 100% trade match.

[SleepingHero]

@RealGM
Warriors Plan On Letting Kevon Looney's Full $8M Salary For 24-25 Guarantee

[SleepingHero]

@RealGM
Warriors Want To Pursue Trade Market Before Engaging Klay Thompson On Contract

[SleepingHero]

Well now, THAT is information I hadn't caught up with yet. Thanks! 

That does move the needle some, actually.

[DanSchwartzgan]

No they can't make the trade now, with a delayed execution date. They can agree in principle, but no one can commit to a deal until it's legal. And it has to be submitted to NBA and be approved, CBA-legal at the point it's submitted.

"Announcing" a trade is weird. It can (and often does) get leaked, rather than anything being said by the team to the public. And in the older days, announcing something before it was legal was strictly forbidden, with penalties. I think they've relaxed those rules to some degree, although I really don't have a good feel anymore on what can or can't be done.

None of our draft night moves last June were executed until July because OKC didn’t have room for Bertans until the 23/24 NBA year.  But, we knew all of the moves very soon after the picks were made.

[mvossman]

Well now, THAT is information I hadn't caught up with yet. Thanks! 

That does move the needle some, actually.

The other thing I noticed (and I had to check this twice to be sure) but he averaged almost 3 steals per 36 and over a block.  In fact for his career, he is averaging 4 bocks + steals per 36.  Thats kind of crazy.

EDIT: That is higher than Caruso, JJJ and Chet. It may be highest in the league.

[Mavs2021]

Anyone ever heard that one before from reddit via realgm: Cuban lost basketball control when he signed Curry with out telling anyone. That forced the front office to change Jones Jr’s deal from 3 to 1 year.

[KillerLeft]

Anyone ever heard that one before from reddit via realgm: Cuban lost basketball control when he signed Curry with out telling anyone. That forced the front office to change Jones Jr’s deal from 3 to 1 year.

Haven't come across this nugget, and no idea if it's true. 

Sadly, with Cuban and the way this franchise has been run over the years, it's not as far-fetched as it should be.

[DanSchwartzgan]

Here's a tweak to some of the ideas above that might solve ALL the needs (if you can figure out who goes in the empty slot). The specific moves don't have to be these exact ones - they can be done in any number of ways. Using the ideas above:

1 Swap Green for pick 26 (WAS) which you plan to use. (You may or may not piggy-back another player on this to come to DAL.)
2 Trade THJ-Lawson for Thybulle. (You may or may not piggy-back another player on this to come to DAL.)
3 Don't resign Morris.

Now you have 12 players with 2 open roster slots, and about 19.5M for DJJ and 1 more player salary (via trade, or BAE). SIDE NOTE: I think DJJ would be overpaid at 12.9M MLE, and would hope to see him signed more in the 10.5-11M range. But that's just details.

Can you find an offensive player that works in that scenario?

This is why I raised the idea of Green to the TPE in Washington.  His salary in June fits, but it doesn’t in July.  So, this has to be done in two parts since THybulle can’t be traded here in June.

Portland has four picks in this draft and none in 2025.  Maybe it is THJ/protected 2025 for Thybulle/#34 (executed in July like we did a year ago) and you fill an open slot with the salary of that second rounder from Portland.

[KillerLeft]

This is why I raised the idea of Green to the TPE in Washington.  His salary in June fits, but it doesn’t in July.  So, this has to be done in two parts since THybulle can’t be traded here in June.

Portland has four picks in this draft and none in 2025.  Maybe it is THJ/protected 2025 for Thybulle/#34 (executed in July like we did a year ago) and you fill an open slot with the salary of that second rounder from Portland.

Like the way you're thinking, but don't like including 2025 in that deal. If they're interested in Hardaway at all, getting off of the Thybulle contract (for which they have Dallas to blame) has got to be at least part of the motivation, so I'm hopeful they can find a way to do the deal at a lower cost.

[DanSchwartzgan]

Like the way you're thinking, but don't like including 2025 in that deal. If they're interested in Hardaway at all, getting off of the Thybulle contract (for which they have Dallas to blame) has got to be at least part of the motivation, so I'm hopeful they can find a way to do the deal at a lower cost.

Getting off the Thybulle contract?  If his O has improved as much as some here are saying, I think he will certainly cost something.

In fact, if he shoots better than DJJ and defends as good as DJJ, why are we trading Josh to create room for DJJ?  Just deal THJ/pick for Thybulle/pick and call it a day.  PJ/Maxi/OMax are your bigger wing defenders and Thybulle/Green/Exum are your smaller wing defenders.  It puts some pressure on Hardy, but it is time for him to sh$t or get off the pot anyway.

[mvossman]

Like the way you're thinking, but don't like including 2025 in that deal. If they're interested in Hardaway at all, getting off of the Thybulle contract (for which they have Dallas to blame) has got to be at least part of the motivation, so I'm hopeful they can find a way to do the deal at a lower cost.

Yeah, we would be doing each other a favor.  I would be fine with sending a second or two, but not the first.

[KillerLeft]

Getting off the Thybulle contract?  If his O has improved as much as some here are saying, I think he will certainly cost something.

In fact, if he shoots better than DJJ and defends as good as DJJ, why are we trading Josh to create room for DJJ?  Just deal THJ/pick for Thybulle/pick and call it a day.  PJ/Maxi/OMax are your bigger wing defenders and Thybulle/Green/Exum are your smaller wing defenders.  It puts some pressure on Hardy, but it is time for him to sh$t or get off the pot anyway.

Idk, man. Not sure I see it that way. 

If they matched the Dallas offer only to entertain trading him the next year (after shutting things down to tank midway through the season, to 2021's point), I think buyer's remorse is likely part of the equation here...unless you're suggesting Portland actually thinks Hardaway makes them a better team, which is possible. 

I don't really buy the idea that they matched the offer just to extract some small toll from Dallas a year later. I find it much more likely that they matched because they had a vision for how Thybulle would help them and are now wanting to be rid of the contract after seeing him for another year. Could be wrong. 

I can get behind the idea of adding a sweetener, but I think Gump's notion of something smaller (he mentioned Lawson, not sure if that's enough, but I'd probably include a 2nd and not ask for a pick back) is much more in line with reality. I am out if the cost is a 2025 first, even if you're right.

[KillerLeft]

Yeah, we would be doing each other a favor.  I would be fine with sending a second or two, but not the first.

This is the way I see it, too. 

IF these two teams are really talking, and IF this is really what they're talking about, I assume it's sort of "you guys wanted him, and it turns out we shouldn't have" type of stuff. That isn't necessarily a slight on Thybulle, btw, it's just that Portland might have realized they're farther away from contention than they believed a year ago. Turning that contract into Hardaway and getting it off of their books might be enticing for any number of reasons. 

We're all just speculating. It's clear I'm on the low end of the Thybulle excitement spectrum around here, but even factoring that in I think including a first round pick for him, given how few Dallas has available, would be pretty irresponsible.

[KillerLeft]

Here's a question maybe one of you Thybulle truthers can help me with, and I'm hoping to hear from someone who watches and appreciates him as a player, not just some type of stats-based argument:

Setting aside the obvious elephant in the room (his offense), if Thybulle is SO impactful as a defender, why doesn't anyone ever talk about him? I mean, think about all the talk there is from analysts, everyone from the idiot-Steven A level all the way to guys like Redick, about guys like Dillon Brooks, Lu Dort, Marcus Smart, Jrue Holiday, etc...why does Thybulle NEVER seem to get brought up in those conversations? He's not overly young or unknown. Hell, he doesn't even get mentioned as much as Ntilikina used to be.

I mean that question genuinely, not in some sarcastic, leading way. I'm really interested in hearing from an actual fan of him as a player, not someone who's just a fan of him through advanced stats. Sometimes, there are people in both of those camps, so I don't mean to imply anything uncool, just to clarify the type of analysis I'm interested in learning on this topic. I mean, even his own national team made him play behind Josh Green last summer. I get that the rules make international play even MORE offensive leaning than the NBA, but, still. I wonder if this isn't a case of "greener grass over there" when it comes to Thybulle's defense. I buy that he's a good defender, just not sure I can get to where some people's opinions of his D seem to live.

[DanSchwartzgan]

Idk, man. Not sure I see it that way. 

If they matched the Dallas offer only to entertain trading him the next year. 

I can get behind the idea of adding a sweetener, but I'd probably include a 2nd and not ask for a pick back) is much more in line with reality. I am out if the cost is a 2025 first, even if you're right.

So, teams shut down their bad players to tank?  Then why are we talking about him if a team like Portland wants to get off of him.  What am I missing here?

People need to think more creatively about the 2025 first.  Portland doesn’t have one and has four picks this year including two seconds.  There are ways to make our 2025 a fake first.  Make it lottery protected or top 20 protected or whatever you want and back it up with a conversion to our second in 2025.  I’m not sure the difference in #24-#27 a year from now is all that different than #34 now.  In Nico I trust

[BigDirk41]

Here's a question maybe one of you Thybulle truthers can help me with, and I'm hoping to hear from someone who watches and appreciates him as a player, not just some type of stats-based argument:

Setting aside the obvious elephant in the room (his offense), if Thybulle is SO impactful as a defender, why doesn't anyone ever talk about him? I mean, think about all the talk there is from analysts, everyone from the idiot-Steven A level all the way to guys like Redick, about guys like Dillon Brooks, Lu Dort, Marcus Smart, Jrue Holiday, etc...why does Thybulle NEVER seem to get brought up in those conversations? He's not overly young or unknown. Hell, he doesn't even get mentioned as much as Ntilikina used to be.

I mean that question genuinely, not in some sarcastic, leading way. I'm really interested in hearing from an actual fan of him as a player, not someone who's just a fan of him through advanced stats. Sometimes, there are people in both of those camps, so I don't mean to imply anything uncool, just to clarify the type of analysis I'm interested in learning on this topic. I mean, even his own national team made him play behind Josh Green last summer. I get that the rules make international play even MORE offensive leaning than the NBA, but, still. I wonder if this isn't a case of "greener grass over there" when it comes to Thybulle's defense. I buy that he's a good defender, just not sure I can get to where some people's opinions of his D seem to live.

He was all NBA defense 2nd team in 21&22 when playing on a contender. Not sure if that's enough for you, but it's a sign his defense is respected and top notch.

https://www.nba.com/sixers/matisse-thybu...-team-2022

[dirkfansince1998]

Here's a question maybe one of you Thybulle truthers can help me with, and I'm hoping to hear from someone who watches and appreciates him as a player, not just some type of stats-based argument:

Setting aside the obvious elephant in the room (his offense), if Thybulle is SO impactful as a defender, why doesn't anyone ever talk about him? I mean, think about all the talk there is from analysts, everyone from the idiot-Steven A level all the way to guys like Redick, about guys like Dillon Brooks, Lu Dort, Marcus Smart, Jrue Holiday, etc...why does Thybulle NEVER seem to get brought up in those conversations? He's not overly young or unknown. Hell, he doesn't even get mentioned as much as Ntilikina used to be.

I mean that question genuinely, not in some sarcastic, leading way. I'm really interested in hearing from an actual fan of him as a player, not someone who's just a fan of him through advanced stats. Sometimes, there are people in both of those camps, so I don't mean to imply anything uncool, just to clarify the type of analysis I'm interested in learning on this topic. I mean, even his own national team made him play behind Josh Green last summer. I get that the rules make international play even MORE offensive leaning than the NBA, but, still. I wonder if this isn't a case of "greener grass over there" when it comes to Thybulle's defense. I buy that he's a good defender, just not sure I can get to where some people's opinions of his D seem to live.

He made two all-defense teams in the past so media/players/fans clearly recognized his impact. Problem is that come playoff time things in Philly fall apart and everyone not named Embiid ends up in the scapegoat conversation (this year it is Tobias Harris turn). Thybulle played a minor role in all of this but in the end Philly traded him instead of extending/resigning him at the end of his rookie contract.
He ended up on a tanking team in Portland. Not the kind of place where defensive minded role players earn individual accolades. And to make things worse he isn't getting a lot of minutes because a) Blazers are trying to develop younger guys b) his minutes hurt the tank. They actually shut him down in mid march. He did not play in the last 15 games of the season.

[KillerLeft]

So, teams shut down their bad players to tank?  Then why are we talking about him if a team like Portland wants to get off of him.  What am I missing here?

No, but when they decide to tank they do prioritize the younger players for whom they can envision a future role. 

And, I think just the fact that they were in a position to decide to tank after matching on Thybulle and giving out that latest Grant contract, even after it was clear Lillard wouldn't be with them (things a lot of national guys killed them for, btw) strongly suggests that the season didn't go as planned for them, imo. It's up to each of us to draw what conclusions about Thybulle and Grant we wish, but to date, I have seen nothing from Thybulle that makes me anything less than grateful Portland matched last summer. I'm less worried about it this time around because I believe he'd be coming into a situation with a much more established pecking order and probably wouldn't be given time to audition for quite as huge of a role (though your assertion that he might be better than Jones has me a little on edge - I hope he's not being viewed as an "instead of Jones" option). 

I get that a similar argument can be and basically has been made about Grant, but personally, I don't think the players are even just one tier apart in quality. Still, it's all just our own bias/criteria/opinions. 

I guess we're not going to agree, but I'm not worried about it. I wouldn't include a first round pick for Thybulle, personally. Even heavily protected, that would hurt, imho. Who knew it would take this long to be done with that awful Porzingis trade?