Trade & FA 2023-24: HOU Targeting Mikal Bridges again!| Mitchell is LAL #1 Target

[Scott41theMavs]

Isn't Harris's desirability almost entirely linked to his contract? It's not like he can't play.

I've hated the idea of him, on that awful max deal he's had forever. But he is a solid starter, so if he's paid like that (or even paid LESS than that price range), it seems like he would be a plus.

I see him as the mirror opposite of PJW (and perhaps a case study in how NBA pricing works). The value in TH is that he gives you solid (but not great) scoring on a fairly consistent basis, and he's not awful on defense. So you get some fairly reliable help on one end, and hope he also makes plays on defense so that he's approaching two-way.

In comparison, I think I could fairly write a PJW evaluation with the same words I used for TH, but just switch ends of the floor. 
"The value in TH PJW is that he gives you solid (but not great) scoring defense on a fairly consistent basis, and he's not awful on defense offense. So you get some fairly reliable help on one end, and hope he also makes plays on defense offense so that he's approaching two-way." I think the value for them is about the same, just with different pluses and minuses.

I think that's a fair comp, and that it also demonstrates how salary skews greatly to offense. The point being, since anyone halfway decent on offense gets the max anyhow, you are better to pay about the same (the max) for someone like Luka and Kyrie, and then you can fill in around them with players whose price tag is modest because you don't need offense to be their strength.

That having been said, would love to have TH too, if he was priced like PJW or less (although I don't see any way to acquire him). But I think he'll go for way more money than I would want to pay, because teams like to pay big for players who can score.

Love your contributions to the board, F Gump, and always look forward to reading your stuff. In this case, however, methinks you are grossly underrating PJ's defense. He's been golden for the Mavs.

[F Gump]

Love your contributions to the board, F Gump, and always look forward to reading your stuff. In this case, however, methinks you are grossly underrating PJ's defense. He's been golden for the Mavs.

How so? I just wrote a whole post saying I would rather have what PJW brings to the table (a lot of defense, and oft-sporadic offense) over what Harris offers. I certainly didn't have any intention to disparage PJW in the comparison, but rather to show how PJW's excellence gets discounted as to payroll because it's primarily defense (with offense sometimes), rather than the opposite. 

BTW, I had no idea PJW was this impactful. It didn't really show in CHA. Not sure the NBA in general saw it either, if we look at how he wasn't pursued in free agency. The diff may also flow from him now being in a place where what he does well (defend and rebound) is what is needed, and his offense (or its issues) isn't a barrier to him being a real contributor.

Thanks for the kind words!

[KillerLeft]

Isn't Harris's desirability almost entirely linked to his contract? It's not like he can't play.

I've hated the idea of him, on that awful max deal he's had forever. But he is a solid starter, so if he's paid like other solid starters (or even paid LESS than their typical price range) rather than at that bloated max level, it seems like he would be a plus.

I see him as the mirror opposite of PJW (and perhaps a case study in how NBA pricing works). The value in TH is that he gives you solid (but not great) scoring on a fairly consistent basis, and he's not awful on defense. So you get some fairly reliable help on one end, and hope he also makes plays on defense so that he's approaching two-way.

In comparison, I think I could fairly write a PJW evaluation with the same words I used for TH, but just switch ends of the floor. 
"The value in TH PJW is that he gives you solid (but not great) scoring defense on a fairly consistent basis, and he's not awful on defense offense. So you get some fairly reliable help on one end, and hope he also makes plays on defense offense so that he's approaching two-way." I think the value for them is about the same, just with different pluses and minuses.

I think that's a fair comp, and that it also demonstrates how salary skews greatly to offense. The point being, since anyone halfway decent on offense gets the max anyhow, you are better to pay about the same (the max) for someone like Luka and Kyrie, and then you can fill in around them with players whose price tag is modest because you don't need offense to be their strength.

That having been said, would love to have TH too, if he was priced like PJW or less (although I don't see any way to acquire him). But I think he'll go for way more money than I would want to pay, because teams like to pay big for players who can score.

I agree (to a point) with your point regarding contract and ensuing expectations. 

I don't agree with your assessment of the players you're comparing. I have been following both of them pretty closely for a while, and though I'll admit that Washington's early fit in this offense hasn't been the easiest of transitions, I have a much, much higher opinion of him, offensively, than Harris. 

For one thing, Washington was higher on his team's offensive food chain in Charlotte than Harris has even been. I've seen him have 30-40 games where he seemed unstoppable, and I feel he still qualifies as a young, improving player. In addition to that, he did an interview when he got here in which he basically said that Kidd's defenisve system and terminology was exactly the same as what he's used to from Charlotte, but that the offense was drastically different. Plus, it's obvious that he's having to play off the ball much more here (and will likely continue to need to do that) than he did in Charlotte, which, as we've learned, is more difficult of an adjustment for these guys than we realize. I expect that a full training camp with him on the team will result both in a greater comfort level from him with his off-ball responsibilities in the flow of the general offense, AND an increase in his actual, tangible involvement in certain actions.

Example: he's a GREAT passer (how that has escaped the masses around here, I don't get). Every game features 1-3 really impressive assists from situations where he is the outlet from a trap, moves the defense and finds the correct guy who has the advantage. This is something that no other Mavs "defensive role player" - not Kleber, not DFS, not Lively, not DJJ, none of them - showed up understanding right out of the jump. I honestly believe we'll see more from him (next year, after a training camp) as the screener/outlet on the short roll, and I'm expecting that to look GREAT. Heck, if Lively can be any sort of threat as a corner shooter (just enough to plausibly hold a defender), then we could see him (Lively) start to sneak into the dunker's spot, not unlike Aaron Gordon does right now for Denver. I'm not kidding, Washington is going to open new possibilities for this OFFENSE, if they let him. I also think he's going to shoot better as time goes on, personally. 

With Harris, there are just too many games (the majority of them, frankly) where you literally forget he's out there. I know watching Washington go 0/7 from 3 isn't fun, but he moves the ball in intelligent ways, gets offensive put backs, makes occasional smart back cuts, and has a general and obvious desire to impact the game on that end, despite not being part of the plan yet, or even fully comfortable with his role at times. To me, Harris has always seemed like he's hiding out there (similar to how Green feels here at times).

I take Washington over Harris 10/10 times without a moment's hesitation, and I honestly think a lot of folks around here are going to wish they didn't judge him (offensively) so harshly on a small sample size after an in-season deadline trade. Those almost never result in the best version of a team. If you think back to all the great TDL deals we've seen the Mavs make: Van Exel, Butler/Haywood, etc...it was always evident that the team was better off afterwards, but the NEXT SEASON is always when the team really, really improves.

[Mavs2021]

Isn't Harris's desirability almost entirely linked to his contract? It's not like he can't play.

I've hated the idea of him, on that awful max deal he's had forever. But he is a solid starter, so if he's paid like other solid starters (or even paid LESS than their typical price range) rather than at that bloated max level, it seems like he would be a plus.

I see him as the mirror opposite of PJW (and perhaps a case study in how NBA pricing works). The value in TH is that he gives you solid (but not great) scoring on a fairly consistent basis, and he's not awful on defense. So you get some fairly reliable help on one end, and hope he also makes plays on defense so that he's approaching two-way.

In comparison, I think I could fairly write a PJW evaluation with the same words I used for TH, but just switch ends of the floor. 
"The value in TH PJW is that he gives you solid (but not great) scoring defense on a fairly consistent basis, and he's not awful on defense offense. So you get some fairly reliable help on one end, and hope he also makes plays on defense offense so that he's approaching two-way." I think the value for them is about the same, just with different pluses and minuses.

I think that's a fair comp, and that it also demonstrates how salary skews greatly to offense. The point being, since anyone halfway decent on offense gets the max anyhow, you are better to pay about the same (the max) for someone like Luka and Kyrie, and then you can fill in around them with players whose price tag is modest because you don't need offense to be their strength.

That having been said, would love to have TH too, if he was priced like PJW or less (although I don't see any way to acquire him). But I think he'll go for way more money than I would want to pay, because teams like to pay big for players who can score.

Îf PJW gives you solid defense, I would like to know what great defense is to you. I´d assume shooting a guy dead at halfcourt.

[SleepingHero]

@TheDunkCentral
There are ‘increasingly loud whispers’ that Jimmy Butler’s future might not be in Miami, per
@johnhollinger


“Jimmy Butler is extension-eligible, but between his declining play this season and the constant absences, there are increasingly loud whispers that his future might not be in Miami. The Heat openly talking about Bam Adebayo as the keeper of the #HeatCulture flame and not mentioning Butler as much is another notable point.”

[SleepingHero]

@esidery
The Pelicans are not expected to offer Brandon Ingram a contract extension this offseason.

Ingram is eligible to sign a four-year, $208 million deal, but New Orleans will be going in another direction.

Trey Murphy III is also eligible for a rookie-scale extension expected to pay him $20-25 million annually.

All signs point towards New Orleans prioritizing Murphy over Ingram as their wing of the future.

New Orleans will have Ingram’s $36 million salary and valuable draft capital to attempt to pair another star alongside Zion Williamson.

[SleepingHero]

@esidery
Rival executives believe Jimmy Butler is the Sixers’ contingency plan, if they fail to sign Paul George in free agency, per
@TheSteinLine
(https://marcstein.substack.com/p/nba-coa...trade-talk).

Philadelphia would have enough cap space to absorb Butler’s salary in a deal revolving around draft picks.

[SleepingHero]

@TheDunkCentral
NBA executive links Devin Booker to the Spurs and Thunder

[SleepingHero]

[DallasMaverick]

I think he’ll have problems finding a long-term close-to-max deal. Too old, too fragile.

Well played, Clips.

[omahen]

@TheDunkCentral
NBA executive links Devin Booker to the Spurs and Thunder

Didn't Booker just said he wants to be in Phoenix forever. Also the owner seems to continue with the all-in approach. I think things would have to go terribly wrong in Phoenix to change course this summer. Booker also just signed his new deal and is locked for four more years. Phoenix owner just doesn't look like a guy that would have any interest in a long and painful rebuild. Perhaps  things go bad next season, if they totally fail again. Things failing again is very likely, though.

[Mavs2021]

Didn't Booker just said he wants to be in Phoenix forever. Also the owner seems to continue with the all-in approach. I think things would have to go terribly wrong in Phoenix to change course this summer. Booker also just signed his new deal and is locked for four more years. Phoenix owner just doesn't look like a guy that would have any interest in a long and painful rebuild. Perhaps  things go bad next season, if they totally fail again. Things failing again is very likely, though.

Damn. Beal makes 150M the next three years. Even Durant is locked in two more years. They are going nowhere literally and figuratively. They just have to upgrade their roster through free agency and hope to hit 1-2 triples. They have no other choice. 36 year old Durant and 32 year old Beal as a 1-2 punch would not even get you in the play-offs. I think they´d be a 9-10 seed at best and lose in the play-in. So agree 100%. No major changes coming.

[omahen]

I think he’ll have problems finding a long-term close-to-max deal. Too old, too fragile.

Well played, Clips.

Agree. The series against Dallas showed that George is a very good player, but he is far from being capable of carrying the team as the lead guy. He can shoot, he is good on defense, but his creation ability at his age is very limited. DJJ hounded him whole series and he just didn't have an answer. Luka for example was not shooting well, but he still had a very strong impact on the team. I don't think I could say that about George. He only had impact a couple of games with unsustainable hot shooting, hitting some extremely tough shots. But, that is not consistent. 

At this stage of career he is probably an elite 3-D wing. He can shoot, he can create some, he can play defense. But, those guys rarely get max deals, especially at the age where his impact is far more likely to be lower with each year than higher or even at same level. Perhaps a team like Philly could see him as a missing piece and overpay for his services for a couple of years window with their star in the prime. He would be an excellent fit next to Maxey and Embiid, as long as he can stay healthy. 

It is very unlikely that Clippers are getting anywhere with this core. They had plenty of opportunities and never delivered. If George walks for nothing, what can they do? Cash in on Leonard, Powell, Zubac and Mann (all 27 or older) and start what will be probably a long and painful rebuild? None of those guys is likely to bring a supertalented young star in the making, that could allow a quick rebuild. Zero talented youngsters on the team. 

It will be an interesting summer.

[omahen]

Damn. Beal makes 150M the next three years. Even Durant is locked in two more years. They are going nowhere literally and figuratively. They just have to upgrade their roster through free agency and hope to hit 1-2 triples. They have no other choice. 36 year old Durant and 32 year old Beal as a 1-2 punch would not even get you in the play-offs. I think they´d be a 9-10 seed at best and lose in the play-in. So agree 100%. No major changes coming.

Rebuild is out of the question. But, Beal and Booker basically play the same position and Booker is the only asset they have. They would get a superstar return for him. Would it be possible to get better fitting pieces around Durant and Beal by trading him? San Antonio doesn't have anything. How about OKC? Dort and Giddey would be good fits next to Durant and Beal. In addition, they would likely get a ton of other assets too. I would consider it, if the offer would really be great.

[SleepingHero]

@TheDunkCentral
There is mutual interest between the Magic and Klay Thompson, per
@ShamsCharania

[DallasMaverick]

@TheDunkCentral
There is mutual interest between the Magic and Klay Thompson, per
@ShamsCharania

...or at least, his agent says so.

[DallasMaverick]

Agree. The series against Dallas showed that George is a very good player, but he is far from being capable of carrying the team as the lead guy. He can shoot, he is good on defense, but his creation ability at his age is very limited. DJJ hounded him whole series and he just didn't have an answer. Luka for example was not shooting well, but he still had a very strong impact on the team. I don't think I could say that about George. He only had impact a couple of games with unsustainable hot shooting, hitting some extremely tough shots. But, that is not consistent. 

At this stage of career he is probably an elite 3-D wing. He can shoot, he can create some, he can play defense. But, those guys rarely get max deals, especially at the age where his impact is far more likely to be lower with each year than higher or even at same level. Perhaps a team like Philly could see him as a missing piece and overpay for his services for a couple of years window with their star in the prime. He would be an excellent fit next to Maxey and Embiid, as long as he can stay healthy. 

It is very unlikely that Clippers are getting anywhere with this core. They had plenty of opportunities and never delivered. If George walks for nothing, what can they do? Cash in on Leonard, Powell, Zubac and Mann (all 27 or older) and start what will be probably a long and painful rebuild? None of those guys is likely to bring a supertalented young star in the making, that could allow a quick rebuild. Zero talented youngsters on the team. 

It will be an interesting summer.

I'll bet they are really regretting that Kawhi extension right now, as well.

Very difficult to rebuild around that kind of payroll roadblock.

In the current NBA, it just really hurts to have non-performing payroll.  Can't swing and miss.

[KillerLeft]

I'll bet they are really regretting that Kawhi extension right now, as well.

Very difficult to rebuild around that kind of payroll roadblock.

In the current NBA, it just really hurts to have non-performing payroll.  Can't swing and miss.

Unpopular opinion, but I bet they’re not regretting it.

We, general NBA fans, are worn out waiting for the Clippers to realize the promise of this era, so I imagine their fan base is even more frustrated. 

BUT, as ludicrous as it might seem, if they simply bring back George and Harden, and maybe get off of Westbrook and Tucker somehow, they’re guaranteed stretches of dominant play where they look like top shelf contenders, and by the end of the season, people will be taking them seriously again. If they’re finally healthy at the right time, who knows?

Will that best case scenario happen? Probably not. We know it, they know it. But, they’ll win 50, and it’s not like they have a path to anything better. It’s their only play, imho.

[DallasMaverick]

Unpopular opinion, but I bet they’re not regretting it.

We, general NBA fans, are worn out waiting for the Clippers to realize the promise of this era, so I imagine their fan base is even more frustrated. 

BUT, as ludicrous as it might seem, if they simply bring back George and Harden, and maybe get off of Westbrook and Tucker somehow, they’re guaranteed stretches of dominant play where they look like top shelf contenders, and by the end of the season, people will be taking them seriously again. If they’re finally healthy at the right time, who knows?

Will that best case scenario happen? Probably not. We know it, they know it. But, they’ll win 50, and it’s not like they have a path to anything better. It’s their only play, imho.

Do you think both Harden and George will be Clippers next season?  If so, at what price for each of them?

[DallasMaverick]

Unpopular opinion, but I bet they’re not regretting it.

We, general NBA fans, are worn out waiting for the Clippers to realize the promise of this era, so I imagine their fan base is even more frustrated. 

BUT, as ludicrous as it might seem, if they simply bring back George and Harden, and maybe get off of Westbrook and Tucker somehow, they’re guaranteed stretches of dominant play where they look like top shelf contenders, and by the end of the season, people will be taking them seriously again. If they’re finally healthy at the right time, who knows?

Will that best case scenario happen? Probably not. We know it, they know it. But, they’ll win 50, and it’s not like they have a path to anything better. It’s their only play, imho.

Looks like he's planning to be back.

Russell Westbrook posted this on his Instagram story tonight about him & the Clippers’ 2023-24 season… & also about rumors written about him:

“I am often the topic of conversation by so many “sources” and sports news outlets. I felt inclined to share my actual thoughts and words following this season. Understand that anything you read about what I’ve said or haven’t said has likely been fabricated. I’ve never had any trouble sharing my thoughts or ideas on anything, and I choose to keep my thoughts to myself in most cases.

I’d like to share some of my actual thoughts to clipper nation and all of my fans. It’s a difficult time for a lot of people due to certain expectations that have been placed on them. Therefore, it’s understandable that there is pressure to plant stories or point the finger for what many would classify as a disappointing end to our season.

I for one enjoyed my year, and worked hard to bring the energy, and provide a spark for our team with each opportunity I was given. I felt that I was and remain more than willing to take on new roles, and make certain sacrifices in hope that it would make our team better. T hoped for a different outcome, but I also enjoyed being in the trenches with my teammates this year who have all been supportive of me throughout the season. I hope to come back better, stronger, and remain eager to take on any role that continues to put us in the best position to win next season!”