Trade & FA 2023-24: Stein-Ingram Trade Inevitable| LAL Want Lebron Back On Any Terms

[F Gump]

I do agree with you from GS’s standpoint.  They need to send out real salary and let Paul’s expiring help their LT situation next season.

I would assume TOR would want Kuminga, but it would take way more matching salary than that to match PS contract. If we limit it to "real salary" that means GS has to also include either Green or Wiggins, and pay them for many years, and I don't see TOR being interested in either.

[RGP1981]

Here is an idea that I think is clever and fits the NewPF and NewBackupC theory...

The deal is THJ/GWill/Hardy/Draft compensation for Avdija (23)/Gafford (25).

I think Gafford at $12mm is a decent combination of cost and skill behind Lively and you haven't paid him so much that you question Lively's status as #1.  

I suspect the trickier one for most here will be Avdija.  His D-Reb% is a surprising 20.8 for his career (J. Grant is 12).  And his Assist% is 12.6 for his career (and 19 for the current season).  He's recognized as a defender, can attack the rim off the dribble and is up to .347 from three (.438 from the corner, but the sample is small).  He also fits the mold of DJJ, Exum and Green in that he doesn't have to score to contribute (important on a team with Luka and Kyrie).  I also think he can play next to OMax when the time comes.

The clever part of this is THJ/Hardy is a match for Avdija/Gafford and Washington has a TPE that GWill (or Holmes) would fit into.  So, you are reducing salary next season ($29mm for Avdija/Gafford vs. $31mm for the outgoing) or you've created a TPE that you can use that is similar to the MLE but wouldn't hard cap you if you use it (I think) in case you can't keep DJJ.

The ball movement here would be incredible and the age of Avdija fits in well with Green, Lively and OMax for when Kyrie has aged out.  I would give up a lot to make that happen.

I mentioned Avdija a couple of pages ago too.

I feel like the lineup after the trade you have suggested will be needing a movement shooter though, especially after getting rid of THJ and Hardy. My pick for that role would be Quentin Grimes.

- Kyrie, Grimes, Luka, Avdija, Lively

And although Kyrie has been great, is the better offensive player and plays smart on defense... I think Dejounte Murray would be an even better fit instead of Kyrie. For these reasons:

- Defense... DM plays great defense. This allows the team to use an SG who can shoot and defend (like Grimes), or at times even an SG that can shoot but is a weakness on defense (like THJ or Hardy)... rather than use an SG who is purely defense but can't shoot (like Josh Green). It's not so easy finding All-NBA defensive players who can also shoot at 38-40% from deep.

- Length... DM 6'5", Kyrie 6'2". Dejounte is more switchable on defense. Opposing teams will only be looking to switch on Luka, rather than Luka + Kyrie.

- Salary... 2024-25 DM $24.8m, Kyrie $40m.

- Offense... although Kyrie is easily more skillful, their impact is not too different when comparing their numbers (apart from free throws).

DM vs Kyrie:
PPG: 21 vs 23.5
FG%: 46% vs 47%
FG3%: 38% vs 42%
FT%: 80% vs 89%
eFG%: 53% vs 55%
USG%: 24.5% vs 28.3%

- Availability: DM get injured less than Kyrie and plays more games. He is more likely to be available in the playoffs.

- Timeline: DM is 27 years old, Kyrie is almost 32. I'm seeing this as a superb opportunity to put together a whole core that is on the same timeline as Luka.

G: Dejounte (27yo) / Exum (28yo)
G: Grimes (24yo) / new SG (who? Another shooter like Grimes is preferable)
F: Luka (25yo) / new SF (who? DJJ is fine for now)
F: Avdija (23yo) / O-Max (22yo)
C: Lively (20yo) / Sims (25yo)

It will need to be fleshed out more... but this is the kind of core that could have Top 10 ORtg and Top 10 DRtg.

[ItsGoTime]

In all honesty, I kinda like the brainchild that had us picking up Murray for Kyrie. A trade that should work IMO (I know LAL thoughts on Reaves).

To LAL: Kyrie/Morris
To Atl: Reaves/Vincent/Rui/LAL FRP
To Dal: Murray/Capela/all LAL SRPs left

We finish out the season with that group, then go into the offseason ready to get Lauri Markannen using all our available picks and THJ.

Luka/Murray/DJJ/Lauri/Cap or Lively (whoever beats the other out)
Exum/Hardy/Green/OMax/Lively or Cap

THAT’S the team that gels into a contender for years!

[Scott41theMavs]

In all honesty, I kinda like the brainchild that had us picking up Murray for Kyrie. A trade that should work IMO (I know LAL thoughts on Reaves).

To LAL: Kyrie/Morris
To Atl: Reaves/Vincent/Rui/LAL FRP
To Dal: Murray/Capela/all LAL SRPs left

We finish out the season with that group, then go into the offseason ready to get Lauri Markannen using all our available picks and THJ.

Luka/Murray/DJJ/Lauri/Cap or Lively (whoever beats the other out)
Exum/Hardy/Green/OMax/Lively or Cap

THAT’S the team that gels into a contender for years!

Too destructive to the locker room, and as others have pointed out, you'd have to re-teach defense to Murray.

[F Gump]

I would rather have Kyrie than these other ideas. Kyrie is way better than he's being given credit for, and the drop off would be way greater than you realize.

[RGP1981]

Too destructive to the locker room, and as others have pointed out, you'd have to re-teach defense to Murray.

Where are you getting this from??

And Dejounte is an excellent defender.

This link shows his defensive plays from this season.

The combination of players also matters. Currently, Dejounte has to cover for Trae Young, and Grimes has to cover for Brunson. But how good would Dejounte and Grimes be together? I feel that a back-court pairing of Dejounte and Grimes gives the Mavs two 6'5" players who are both great defenders, but still make plays (Dejounte), and a movement shooter (Grimes).

This link shows Grime's defensive plays from this season.

[ItsGoTime]

Too destructive to the locker room, and as others have pointed out, you'd have to re-teach defense to Murray.

Who in that group is destroying the lockerroom? Also, looks to me like no one wants to play defense with Trae on the team. Re-teach a Pop taught defender? Nah, re-motivate him, sure!

[Winter]

I would rather have Kyrie than these other ideas. Kyrie is way better than he's being given credit for, and the drop off would be way greater than you realize.

Not only this, but there's no good reason to trade Kyrie, and I can think of several reasons not to.

Given what the Mavs have invested in him - the scheme, the relationship to Doncic, his apparently positive impact on younger players, and the relatively short time you've been working him into rotation soup makes me think the Mavs would need to have a clear indication that he wasn't working out here. I don't think you have that. 

I frequently wonder about his long-term health, but pushing a trade for a questionable upgrade just at the moment you're finding out how the optimum Kyrie is going to look is just not very smart I don't think.

[StrandedOnBeauboisHill]

Who in that group is destroying the lockerroom? Also, looks to me like no one wants to play defense with Trae on the team. Re-teach a Pop taught defender? Nah, re-motivate him, sure!

You should go watch his All The Smoke interview.  Dejounte Murray seems like a headcase who lacks a ton of self awareness.  For all the clamoring about Kyrie before he got here, he's clearly a good locker room presence.  I have pretty big doubts about Murray fitting in.

[StrandedOnBeauboisHill]

https://airalamo.com/posts/dejounte-murray-airs-lengthy-list-san-antonio-spurs-grievances-all-the-smoke-podcast


He just really comes off as someone who is owed everything.  I don't want him around this team.

[RGP1981]

https://airalamo.com/posts/dejounte-murray-airs-lengthy-list-san-antonio-spurs-grievances-all-the-smoke-podcast


He just really comes off as someone who is owed everything.  I don't want him around this team.

Ironically, that sounds an awful lot like what someone could have said to describe Kyrie, prior to him joining the Mavs.... but Kyrie has been great in his time at the Mavs. So I will take my chances on Dejounte as well.

[Scott41theMavs]

Who in that group is destroying the lockerroom? Also, looks to me like no one wants to play defense with Trae on the team. Re-teach a Pop taught defender? Nah, re-motivate him, sure!

It's the subtraction of Kyrie that would be destructive. Imagine early last year. No Brunson, no Kyrie, zero leadership. 

Kyrie and GWill are the locker room leaders this year, and we are (rightfully) here on the board trying to off-load GWill.

[StrandedOnBeauboisHill]

Ironically, that sounds an awful lot like what someone could have said to describe Kyrie, prior to him joining the Mavs.... but Kyrie has been great in his time at the Mavs. So I will take my chances on Dejounte as well.

The one thing regarding all of the controversy around Kyrie is that there was never a single thing that he's done that called out teammates or had teammates call out him.  Every issue with Kyrie was directed toward the Nets front office and then all of the off court stuff.  You will never find an interview with Kyrie where he talks down about someone like coach Pop or Tony Parker.

I think the other side of this is what F Gump said.  Kyrie is just a MUCH better player than Murray so I don't really understand what we're doing here anyway.  We have a great fit between Luka and Kyrie, how many times do reset a star pairing together?  That is just going to force us to start building chemistry from the beginning again.

[ItsGoTime]

https://airalamo.com/posts/dejounte-murray-airs-lengthy-list-san-antonio-spurs-grievances-all-the-smoke-podcast


He just really comes off as someone who is owed everything.  I don't want him around this team.

I mean owed everything doesn’t extend his contract for 4 years $114M. Owed everything does what Siakam is doing right now.

[RGP1981]

The one thing regarding all of the controversy around Kyrie is that there was never a single thing that he's done that called out teammates or had teammates call out him.  Every issue with Kyrie was directed toward the Nets front office and then all of the off court stuff.  You will never find an interview with Kyrie where he talks down about someone like coach Pop or Tony Parker.

I think the other side of this is what F Gump said.  Kyrie is just a MUCH better player than Murray so I don't really understand what we're doing here anyway.  We have a great fit between Luka and Kyrie, how many times do reset a star pairing together?  That is just going to force us to start building chemistry from the beginning again.

There are two sides to every coin. I can find you interviews where he talks down about Lebron... and he left the Celtics because he had trouble with their young core. Anyway, I like Kyrie and always felt that he was unfairly hounded by fans and media in the past. He seems like a great team-mate. I am open to giving Dejounte a fair chance too, is my only point there.

I think you or F Gump are not speaking in full sentences when you says things like "Kyrie is the MUCH better player". Kyrie is the "much better player on offense". There, now that's a complete sentence. On the other hand, Dejounte is a MUCH better player on defense. Then, there is the question of fit. Due to Kyrie and Luka, there is a need for an extra-defensive guard and forward next to each of them, which handicaps the moves that the team can look to make because those players may not have other things the team needs. Those extra-defensive players might also continue to be a handicap once Kyrie is done, if he is not replaced like-for-like.

Also, while I agree that Kyrie that is simply better on offense... where is it showing in their respective stats?

Dejounte vs Kyrie, 2023-24:
PPG: 21 vs 23.5
FG%: 46% vs 47%
FG3%: 38% vs 42%
FT%: 80% vs 89%
eFG%: 53% vs 55%
USG%: 24.5% vs 28.3%

Apart from free-throws, the differences are mostly marginal.

Then there is games and minutes played. Kyrie has only played 670 minutes in 21 games. Dejounte has played 1212 minutes in 35 games. Although injuries can hit anyone at any time, who is more likely to be available through the whole playoffs?

As for maintaining chemistry over time... don't forget that Kyrie is 32 years old. The Mavs will have 2-3 more seasons after this one is over to win something with him. Then that will be done. With the core I am wanting there could be a 6-7 year window.

G: Dejounte (27yo) / Exum (28yo) or?
G: Grimes (24yo) / new SG (who? Another shooter who can defend, like Grimes, is preferable)
F: Luka (25yo) / new SF (who? DJJ is fine for now)
F: Avdija (23yo) or? / O-Max (22yo) or?
C: Lively (20yo) / Sims (25yo) or?

[ItsGoTime]

The one thing regarding all of the controversy around Kyrie is that there was never a single thing that he's done that called out teammates or had teammates call out him.  Every issue with Kyrie was directed toward the Nets front office and then all of the off court stuff.  You will never find an interview with Kyrie where he talks down about someone like coach Pop or Tony Parker.

I think the other side of this is what F Gump said.  Kyrie is just a MUCH better player than Murray so I don't really understand what we're doing here anyway.  We have a great fit between Luka and Kyrie, how many times do reset a star pairing together?  That is just going to force us to start building chemistry from the beginning again.

Kyrie doesn’t need a coach, remember?

I am not anti Kyrie. I am pro getting a long term fit to get this team to contend for many years. If the path I layed out actually happened there is no doubt in my mind that most of you poo pooing the idea would be talking it up this time next year.

[mvossman]

The one thing regarding all of the controversy around Kyrie is that there was never a single thing that he's done that called out teammates or had teammates call out him.  Every issue with Kyrie was directed toward the Nets front office and then all of the off court stuff.  You will never find an interview with Kyrie where he talks down about someone like coach Pop or Tony Parker.

I think the other side of this is what F Gump said.  Kyrie is just a MUCH better player than Murray so I don't really understand what we're doing here anyway.  We have a great fit between Luka and Kyrie, how many times do reset a star pairing together?  That is just going to force us to start building chemistry from the beginning again.

This is all true, and I don't really see the Mavs moving from Kyrie unless a great opportunity came up that they can't pass up.  

The argument for swapping out Kyrie for Murray does make some sense though.  We have an urgency right now, almost entirely due to Kyrie.  He is about to turn 32 and has a history of missing a lot of games (including big ones).  How much longer can we count on him being elite.  Most of the arguments for win now moves that may play havoc with our future are tied to Kyrie timeline.  We also have the issue that every move we make needs to focus on defense in order to fit with the Luka/Kyrie combo.  

Murray may not be the right answer, either due to attitude concerns or an inability to be a high level defender again, but the idea does make some sense.  If there was a way to replace Kyrie with a younger, more defensive oriented player who could still do a lot the same things offensively (although not at the same elite level) and was more likely to be on the court in general, it would be tempting to do it.

[Winter]

I think the earliest Kyrie would be traded would be summer. More likely after that.

I can't in my wildest dreams imagine a trade for him during this season.

[DanSchwartzgan]

One thing to add to all of this...I'm not sure the team is nearly as picky as many of us.  In the last year or so we've heard interest in or heard they actually made offers for:

J. Collins
Ayton
Capela
Naz R.
Thybulle
PJ Washington
J. Grant
Siakam

And probably some others that have slipped my mind.  The addition of GWill doesn't seem to have stopped the rumor mill regarding players with size.

It may be that Dallas just wants to add talent and the specifics of the deal are more important than the specifics of the player.  Thybulle is a little smaller than the rest and the need for Capela/Ayton has probably been reduced or eliminated given their salaries.  That leaves Collins (old news), Naz R., PJ, Grant and Siakam.  All are more about scoring than D (which means you probably can't eliminate someone like Kuzma from the list).

We aren't exactly hurting for scoring, which tells me we aren't hunting an O for D trade.  We are hunting a smaller scoring for bigger scoring trade.  

PS:  talk of trading Kyrie right now is a waste of everyone's time outside of a theoretical discussion of value.  It isn't going to happen.


Edit: And now Jake Fisher is reporting that Dallas is actively talking with several teams and is shopping THJ/Holmes.

[RoyTarpleysGhost]

Orlando was the one team we all agreed could use THJ. Didn’t we hear Orlando was looking to move Wendell Carter?

How about THJ for WCJ?

Edit: He's not really a lob threat and shot blocker prototype though. So I’m gonna poopoo my own idea.

Edit2: he has developed a three point shot so he could be the new Maxi