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(06-23-2023, 01:58 PM)Chicagojk Wrote: I hate to say it, but the final-week tank turned out to be worth it.
I feel like I've seen a lot of comments to this effect from national media (especially the Ringer) where they act like Dallas tanking the last few games was some kind of egregious act. If there's anything about the Mavs tanking to dunk on it's that they (Kidd) were dumb enough to talk about it and get fined, but the actual tanking wasn't something isolated to the Mavs.
But other than that I agree with Hollinger's analysis of their night
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(06-23-2023, 02:10 PM)Jmaciscool Wrote: I feel like I've seen a lot of comments to this effect from national media (especially the Ringer) where they act like Dallas tanking the last few games was some kind of egregious act. If there's anything about the Mavs tanking to dunk on it's that they (Kidd) were dumb enough to talk about it and get fined, but the actual tanking wasn't something isolated to the Mavs.
But other than that I agree with Hollinger's analysis of their night I think the worst part is the awkwardness of how DAL went about it.
In like the 3rd-to-last game, Luka plays his normal first quarter, then never returns for the rest of the season? Even though he was moving and playing as normal, with no obvious injuries? It was like Cuban/Nico whispered in Kidd's ear after the first quarter, " Pssst, remember how we agreed to tank these last few games just this morning"?
But the results are beyond expectations.
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(06-23-2023, 02:07 PM)cow Wrote: I wish we could trade THJ for a useful big to assure Hardy gets into the top of the rotation.
I don't see THJ's minutes as being overly in Hardy's way.
Could be wrong, but I think they see Hardy as a ball-handler. Maybe not a future MAIN ball-handler, but not a movement catch and shoot guy like THJ. Kyrie Irving is the guy blocking Hardy, from my POV. And you know that Hardy will get lots of time behind Luka and Kyrie. Both of those dudes will miss some games.
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(06-23-2023, 02:54 PM)KillerLeft Wrote: I don't see THJ's minutes as being overly in Hardy's way.
Could be wrong, but I think they see Hardy as a ball-handler. Maybe not a future MAIN ball-handler, but not a movement catch and shoot guy like THJ. Kyrie Irving is the guy blocking Hardy, from my POV. And you know that Hardy will get lots of time behind Luka and Kyrie. Both of those dudes will miss some games.
Getting rid of THJ would necessitate Hardy taking on those minutes and scoring.
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(06-23-2023, 03:45 PM)cow Wrote: Getting rid of THJ would necessitate Hardy taking on those minutes and scoring.
Sure, but you can accomplish the same thing by removing Bullock, and compared to Bullock, THJ is actually a usable, valuable player.
And again, NEITHER of them are in Hardy's way, really. Irving is.
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(06-23-2023, 03:48 PM)KillerLeft Wrote: .,,THJ is actually a usable, valuable player.
Riiiiiight /Dr. Evil
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(06-23-2023, 02:54 PM)KillerLeft Wrote: I don't see THJ's minutes as being overly in Hardy's way.
Could be wrong, but I think they see Hardy as a ball-handler. Maybe not a future MAIN ball-handler, but not a movement catch and shoot guy like THJ. Kyrie Irving is the guy blocking Hardy, from my POV. And you know that Hardy will get lots of time behind Luka and Kyrie. Both of those dudes will miss some games.
I think if this is true we would have seen a lot less of McKinley Wright last year. I always saw that as "Hardy is a scorer and we don't trust him to run the offense". I would like for them to view him as a ball handler because I think second unit minutes of Hardy/Green backcourt is fun but that is not how I interpreted rotations last year. I absolutely think they view him as more of an off ball scorer which would mean that the 30 minutes and 12 shots a game that Hardaway is eating up is definitely in his way.
I have mentioned before that I would expect one of Hardaway or Bullock to remain on this roster next season and personally I've always leaned towards moving Hardaway and keeping Bullock for the exact reason that cow mentioned, to open up Hardy's role. There's legitimate reason to feel that Hardy was the better shot maker, spot up shooter and play maker than Hardaway was by the end of the season last year (although I assume this is a statement that you strongly disagree with), they need to rip of the bandaid and open up his role to full on 6th man IMO.
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06-23-2023, 04:27 PM
(This post was last modified: 06-23-2023, 04:34 PM by KillerLeft.)
(06-23-2023, 04:18 PM)StrandedOnBeauboisHill Wrote: I think if this is true we would have seen a lot less of McKinley Wright last year. I always saw that as "Hardy is a scorer and we don't trust him to run the offense". I would like for them to view him as a ball handler because I think second unit minutes of Hardy/Green backcourt is fun but that is not how I interpreted rotations last year.
Hard disagree (with you, at least, and them, I guess, if you're right about how they view him). I think there's a huge difference between "on-ball scorer" and "someone we can trust to run the offense." I think what pops with Hardy is his uncommonly high number of on-ball counters to defense and ability to get a variety of shots off after creative dribble moves. Sure, he could be an off-ball shooter, too, but that part doesn't excite me nearly as much.
Further, what they allow him to do as a rookie and how they envision carving a role out for him within the structure of the team in the immediate to long term future could be drastically different things.
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06-23-2023, 04:37 PM
(This post was last modified: 06-23-2023, 04:43 PM by StrandedOnBeauboisHill.)
(06-23-2023, 04:27 PM)KillerLeft Wrote: Hard disagree (with you, at least, and them, I guess, if you're right about how they view him). I think there's a huge difference between "on-ball scorer" and "someone we can trust to run the offense." I think what pops with Hardy is his uncommonly high number of on-ball counters to defense and ability to get a variety of shots off after creative dribble moves. Sure, he could be an off-ball shooter, too, but that wouldn't excite me in the least.
Further, what they allow him to do as a rookie and how they envision carving a role out for him within the structure of the team in the immediate to long term future could be drastically different things.
I think that his role is going to completely depend on who he is on the floor with honestly but...
There's no reason he can't offer a healthy balance of off ball shooting with the on ball creativity you're talking about. Putting him in the same sort of action as Hardaway today (flare screens, movement off the ball) would allow him to take his pick, he can catch and shoot or he can catch and attack. I would argue that having someone playing the role as Hardaway who can do more than simply take contested threes (which is fine, it's his game) would really make our offense much more dangerous. Hardaway doesn't do any on ball creation not because the offense doesn't ask him to, it's because he can't.
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(06-23-2023, 04:37 PM)StrandedOnBeauboisHill Wrote: I think that his role is going to completely depend on who he is on the floor with honestly but...
There's no reason he can't offer a healthy balance of off ball shooting with the on ball creativity you're talking about. Putting him in the same sort of action as Hardaway today (flare screens, movement off the ball) would allow him to take his pick, he can catch and shoot or he can catch and attack. I would argue that having someone playing the role as Hardaway who can do more than simply take contested threes (which is fine, it's his game) would really make our offense much more dangerous. Hardaway doesn't do any on ball creation not because the offense doesn't ask him to, it's because he can't.
I think there is room for both. Timmy is a quality rotational level player and was actually one of our better defenders last year (low bar) with a descending contract that is already neutral in value. For a talent starved team, I don't know why we would want to dump him unless we are getting real value back.
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My fear is that THJ and/or Bullock have to be moved for less in return salary wise because the Mavs are trying to make room to get Kyrie signed under the TAX/Apron 1...
Exactly the kind of move they took advantage of last night might come back and bite them in the assets.
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(06-23-2023, 07:08 PM)SkenfromLMF Wrote: My fear is that THJ and/or Bullock have to be moved for less in return salary wise because the Mavs are trying to make room to get Kyrie signed under the TAX/Apron 1...
Exactly the kind of move they took advantage of last night might come back and bite them in the assets.
I think you are way off on sequence, and potential ramifications.
They will figure out Kyrie 1st. Then they will work with the options that remain.
They may CHOOSE to trade players, but no reason to be backed into a corner.
I am making the leap to assume that the moves last night flowed from expertise added (Lindsey specifically) and Cuban (by multiple accounts) not being personally involved in the decisions (which has NOT been the case in prior years, making it particularly noticeable this year). And then trusting that similar expertise will be handling what happens from here.
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(06-23-2023, 08:13 PM)F Gump Wrote: I think you are way off on sequence, and potential ramifications.
They will figure out Kyrie 1st. Then they will work with the options that remain.
They may CHOOSE to trade players, but no reason to be backed into a corner.
You make an interesting point. I'm trying to come up with all these fancy ways of adding to the Bertans deal and we don't really know whether Kyrie is coming back. So, anything that takes on salary before he signs, removes flexibility should he bolt. I think they are still about $30mm-$31.5mm under depending on the Holmes TK if Irving leaves and they abandon the rest of the TE.
BTW, the figure above includes a S/W of Reggie's $5.4mm. If the team elects to keep him at his full amount and Reggie walks, take about $8mm off that figure. The decision on him is kind of interesting:
1. If they only pay his guarantee, they are either nervous about Irving or need the savings for something sizable once Irving signs.
2. If they guarantee him, it may mean they feel good about him staying. Of course, it could also mean they have a cap room team that would happily take him for a year.
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06-23-2023, 11:07 PM
(This post was last modified: 06-23-2023, 11:08 PM by cow.)
If Houston lands Brook Lopez, I wonder if the Bucks would have any interest in McGee.
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(06-23-2023, 11:07 PM)cow Wrote: If Houston lands Brook Lopez, I wonder if the Bucks would have any interest in McGee.
Fingers crossed they never watched Mavs games...
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(06-23-2023, 11:51 PM)Jmaciscool Wrote: Fingers crossed they never watched Mavs games...
They were the ones bidding against us.
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06-24-2023, 02:35 AM
(This post was last modified: 06-24-2023, 02:38 AM by F Gump.)
(06-23-2023, 10:25 PM)DanSchwartzgan Wrote: I'm trying to come up with all these fancy ways of adding to the Bertans deal and we don't really know whether Kyrie is coming back. So, anything that takes on salary before he signs, removes flexibility should he bolt.
The Kyrie signing is not as hard to plan as you are trying to make it. Fairly routine, actually. It's harder to describe on paper that it actually would be to implement.
1 " anything that takes on salary before he signs, removes flexibility should he bolt" -- Well, yeah. But that's just the new NBA normal - add a salary here, leaves less room for there. Not really a biggie.
2 On Kyrie, I would wager they already have a great idea of the number it will take. They are allowed to talk numbers on an extension. But the number can't be bigger than the max (approx 47.6M), so they can plan for worst case already.
3 So in the planning before then, you just figure where you are, worst case. RH with full TK, keep full salary for RB, Kyrie at the max, and then I show 160.6M. So to stay under Apron 1, you have about 11.4M and at least 3 players to add, who will each cost at least 2.02M. You have about 7.4M to play with, depending.
4 From there, it's just making choices while working the numbers. It's all in your control. Moving parts possible.
-- Keep a cushion? How much?
-- Have a 14 man roster? Or 15?
-- Bust Apron 1 cap? Or stay under?
-- Waive RB? Perhaps get his deadline moved into July?
-- Add to DB trade? By itself, there's room for another 7.48M in NET salary back to Dallas, but the Apron 1 margin is 7.4M or less (depends on salary size, and cushion desired). Bigger salary players are possible by adding more outgoing in the same DB trade, of course.
5 Before July 1, any move you consider gets weighed within your limits and other plans (incl Kyrie). When July 1 arrives, you simply START with Kyrie 1st, to determine if you have even more latitude.
6 If Kyrie will sign for Luka money (40.x), the trade opportunity gets bigger - but there's also a full TPE usage that can be weighed in comparison. Nico indicated they don't have a preferred choice between trade vs FA, but their goal is to find one more regular, whichever way gives them the best ready to win player.
As a general note, it would seem to me that the trade route - if they opt to go that way - could very well go through ATL. The Hawks have lots of choices, and an apparent desire to get off of some salary. Although my preferred add-on would be to take Gafford's 3 yr/40M off the WAS books, with McGee sent in return. Maybe the Wiz can add a pick for taking on all that money for them?
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(06-24-2023, 02:35 AM)F Gump Wrote: Although my preferred add-on would be to take Gafford's 3 yr/40M off the WAS books, with McGee sent in return. Maybe the Wiz can add a pick for taking on all that money for them?
I am not really a fan of this for several reasons.
1. Adding another nothing special center on a multiyear deal doesn't make a lot of sense, imho. Only, if Holmes is going somewhere else (I don't think Holmes has any value, or Sacramento wouldn't be paying to get rid of him).
2. Wizards will likely be the hardest tanking team in the league. They don't have any cap issues and have to pay someone. I just don't see them paying anything to get rid of contracts.
The player I like most on Wizards now is Morris. I think he would be perfect back-up PG, especially when either of Luka or Kyrie doesn't play. I think Mavs still need that third PG - I think Hardy can be great next to Luka or Irving, but will strugle as a single PG. But, Mavs don't have any smaller assets (his value is likely a couple of second rounders, lottery protected first at best).
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(06-24-2023, 08:35 AM)omahen Wrote: I am not really a fan of this for several reasons.
1. Adding another nothing special center on a multiyear deal doesn't make a lot of sense, imho. Only, if Holmes is going somewhere else (I don't think Holmes has any value, or Sacramento wouldn't be paying to get rid of him).
2. Wizards will likely be the hardest tanking team in the league. They don't have any cap issues and have to pay someone. I just don't see them paying anything to get rid of contracts.
The player I like most on Wizards now is Morris. I think he would be perfect back-up PG, especially when either of Luka or Kyrie doesn't play. I think Mavs still need that third PG - I think Hardy can be great next to Luka or Irving, but will strugle as a single PG. But, Mavs don't have any smaller assets (his value is likely a couple of second rounders, lottery protected first at best).
I'm not a fan of a Gafford plan either. Center two years from now is presumably covered. Even if that turns out to be wrong, we have to act like it is covered and give Lively developmental time. I happen to be a believer in Holmes, but I've been wrong before about big men. I mean, I was wrong last summer about Powell getting 'dramatically more minutes than people expected (oh wait, that actually happened). I was wrong about Wood's best role being bench big (wait, that was true also). Never mind (actually, I probably was wrong about Wood's best position being PF instead of C).
If we take on someone else from the outside, I'd like it to be more of a 4/5 with a short contract. Olynyk would be the (uninspiring) prototype. Either he or Maxi could get center minutes (in case Holmes doesn't work out). His ability to shoot makes him multi-positional. And, as Lively grows, either he or Holmes are easily phased out. I think you have to have contingencies for 1. Holmes not bouncing back, 2. Maxi's annual injury and 3. Lively not ready yet. Someone with Olynyk's profile checks those boxes.
Oh, and I'd like to do that in addition to adding a wing who can play either the 3 or the 4.
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