2021-2022 ROSTER TALK: [ARCHIVED]

[loki]

See, Burke offends me the least of all those players. I think it's because he has NBA skill in some really important areas. Like it or not, the dude can flat out score. 

Pinson, who I wouldn't mind keeping around somehow, is not remotely on Burke's level as a player. 

The Boban point is simple: even when the team NEEDS help at HIS position, playing him wasn't even a thought. Why? BECAUSE HE CAN'T BE PLAYED. That, to me, is NOT the situation with Burke at all. That's the difference. 

If your overall point is that the Mavs have too many players in this type of role, I can get behind that, maybe. But, I'll just never agree that Burke is somehow the poster child for this point.

---

Well, if he's overpaid, then it's certainly not by much. If moving him is something they want to do, it will be pretty easy to accomplish.

I completely agree that Burke is the better player. I've also resigned myself to the fact that Pinson and Boban are probably going to be here for team chemistry. That's the main reason I've focused on Burke/Brown as salary dump candidates.

[dirkfansince1998]

Some thoughts.


I don´t think this is the offseason for a big splash. And I agree with @"ItsGoTime" that the Mavs will probably have a hard time to repeat their WCF run. With a big payroll and still one future pick down this is a good opportunity to set up the roster for Luka´s second contract. Draft offers the opportunity to add cheap contracts. Tax player MLE is another option.

Requires some creativity but I would actually be in favor of a trade that adds another late 1st. Maybe using the TPE to absorb some salary (for example Danny Green for #23, Favors for #30). Or simply sending out guys like Burke and Brown + the necessary cash to waive them.

Collecting 2-3 players (draft + MLE) that will be on cheap contracts in the next few years.

Setting the Mavs up for the next summer. With Powell and Kleber expiring. Finally all picks available for trade. Dinwiddie (1y left), THJ (2y left) and Bertans (2y left) as salary matches for a potential trade.

[KillerLeft]

I completely agree that Burke is the better player. I've also resigned myself to the fact that Pinson and Boban are probably going to be here for team chemistry. That's the main reason I've focused on Burke/Brown as salary dump candidates.

Ok, that's fair. 

I just respond the opposite way, that's all. 

What offends me is that we're forced to take as a given that so many guys who can't play are needed for chemistry. It's not the idea that "chemistry is important" that offends me - don't get me wrong. I was disappointed when Barea wasn't brought back, and I think that season proved that letting him go was a mistake. Also, it should be noted that the Heat, widely regarded as a franchise run the ideal way, keeps paying Haslem to sit on the bench. There's a reason for that - a good one. 

I don't think Pinson or Boban offer what Haslem/Barea offer, personally. I'd be ok with one or the other, I suppose, but it seems to me that if we want to get upset over someone who's overpaid and doesn't play, Boban is the natural target. That's all I'm saying. 

I actually believe (people are free to disagree, of course) that Burke should have seen the court in that GSW series before it was decided. I think he might've helped. Am I going to be upset if/when he's not on the team next year? Noooooo. But, have I circled him on the roster, thinking "they've got to dump him, somehow?" Absolutely not. 

However, every day that passes with Boban on this team makes me a little more frustrated as a Mavs fan.

[dirkfansince1998]

The Boban point is simple: even when the team NEEDS help at HIS position, playing him wasn't even a thought. Why? BECAUSE HE CAN'T BE PLAYED. That, to me, is NOT the situation with Burke at all. That's the difference. 

I think both can´t be played. I posted Burke´s numbers. If you want to talk about scoring skills Boban is the one that offers them. Not Burke.
I think Boban is the better player but with Kidd´s switch heavy scheme he cannot stay on the floor on defense. We have seen that he can give teams useful minutes in a different scheme and role. Burke on the other hand isn´t facing fit issues. Simply think that he isn´t good enough to make an NBA roster.

[KillerLeft]

I think both can´t be played. I posted Burke´s numbers. If you want to talk about scoring skills Boban is the one that offers them. Not Burke.

Ooof. Hard disagree there. I just don't think we're ever going to see eye to eye on this one. Shocking, because I agree with 98% of what you write around here, but on this one, you and I are Palestine vs. Israel.

Not the end of the world.

[Kammrath]

I don´t think this is the offseason for a big splash. And I agree with @ItsGoTime that the Mavs will probably have a hard time to repeat their WCF run. With a big payroll and still one future pick down this is a good opportunity to set up the roster for Luka´s second contract. Draft offers the opportunity to add cheap contracts. Tax player MLE is another option.

Requires some creativity but I would actually be in favor of a trade that adds another late 1st. Maybe using the TPE to absorb some salary (for example Danny Green for #23, Favors for #30). Or simply sending out guys like Burke and Brown + the necessary cash to waive them.

Collecting 2-3 players (draft + MLE) that will be on cheap contracts in the next few years.

Setting the Mavs up for the next summer. With Powell and Kleber expiring. Finally all picks available for trade. Dinwiddie (1y left), THJ (2y left) and Bertans (2y left) as salary matches for a potential trade.

Very much on board with this. 

I will be disappointed if the Mavs do not add a rookie this year. This draft has talent all the way into the 2nd round, just have to figure out who is the guy.

Give me a TPMLE center like Nurkic and one or two rookies and possibly a simple trade for another center and I am good to go.

[KillerLeft]

Give me a TPMLE center like Nurkic and one or two rookies and possibly a simple trade for another center and I am good to go.

So, you think adding TWO more rotation centers is warranted? I'm just trying to understand you here. 

Does that mean you want to replace Powell AND move Kleber to a different position?

[dirkfansince1998]

Ooof. Hard disagree there. I just don't think we're ever going to see eye to eye on this one. Shocking, because I agree with 98% of what you write around here, but on this one, you and I are Palestine vs. Israel.

Not the end of the world.

My crusade is coming to an end. WCS is gone. Terry is gone. Only part of the wasted 2020 MLE that remains is Burke.

[Mavs2021]

Very much on board with this. 

I will be disappointed if the Mavs do not add a rookie this year. This draft has talent all the way into the 2nd round, just have to figure out who is the guy.

Give me a TPMLE center like Nurkic and one or two rookies and possibly a simple trade for another center and I am good to go.

The scary part is that most people are on board with this approach, but you know that now is the time for Cuban to finally get Danny Green´s shattered body for the 26th pick and maybe we can sign VAJ for the 3rd time with the TP-MLE or he can split it with Robin Hood.

Fight him to the death Nico, he´ll try something like this.

[Jommybone]

Burke's overpay by a few dollars is mostly irrelevant, because it's so tiny of an overpay. He's making barely over the minimum.

Waiving him doesn't erase his salary, you still pay him, and then you also pay for a replacement. If you have someone who wants Burke in trade, and you have another "just in case" offense-creator who wants to come sign for the minimum, that saves a sliver, but it's a lot of work to get there without going backwards.

Burke is at 3.3 next year. The minimum for a rookie is about 1. Because of the tax, the difference is multiplied, no? We are now firmly in your territory, certainly not mine. But is it really just a tiny difference?

[dirkfansince1998]

The scary part is that most people are on board with this approach, but you know that now is the time for Cuban to finally get Danny Green´s shattered body for the 26th pick and maybe we can sign VAJ for the 3rd time with the TP-MLE or he can split it with Robin Hood.

Fight him to the death Nico, he´ll try something like this.

https://gfycat.com/flawlessqualifiediraniangroundjay

[Kammrath]

So, you think adding TWO more rotation centers is warranted? I'm just trying to understand you here. 

Does that mean you want to replace Powell AND move Kleber to a different position?

There are multiple ways I might want a two centers this offseason....

1) If Boban is outgoing. Do not think that is likely however.

2) If Chriss is included in a simple trade.

3) If DP is included in a simple trade.


I would prefer to have MK be a "big wing" and only an emergency center. 

Luka/SD
JB/THJ/FN
RB/JG
DFS/MK
???/DP/???

I would prefer two other centers alongside DP and I do not count Boban. I also do not count Chriss at this point, though DAL might have plans for him to be a rotation guy this coming season.

[dirkfansince1998]

There are multiple ways I might want a two centers this offseason....

1) If Boban is outgoing. Do not think that is likely however.

2) If Chriss is included in a simple trade.

3) If DP is included in a simple trade.


I would prefer to have MK be a "big wing" and only an emergency center. 

Luka/SD
JB/THJ/FN
RB/JG
DFS/MK
???/DP/???

I would prefer two other centers alongside DP and I do not count Boban. I also do not count Chriss at this point, though DAL might have plans for him to be a rotation guy this coming season.

Personally I would prefer two big wings and one center. But I don´t think we disagree. I remember that you mentioned Liddell as a potential small ball five. That´s the kind of player that I am looking at. Maybe one PF/C hybrid. One PF/SF hybrid. And one center.

[F Gump]

2. I don't see much need for another backup. Luka, Brunson, Dinwiddie, Ntilikina can all take minutes at the 1. All of those guys plus Hardaway, Green, Brown, and Pinson can take minutes at the 2. Depending on who they draft you might be able to add another name to that list. I'm really struggling to see the downside of losing a guy who appears in half the games for 10 minutes. 

 

I would also prioritize upgrading the top end of the roster rather than "upgrading Burke". However, that doesn't mean that the bottom half of the roster is somehow untouchable. I certainly expect them to try landing an upgrade at center through trade, but I think they are going to have a hard time pulling it off. If no major deal happens, it seems unavoidable that guys like Burke and Brown will be on the chopping block.

*"I don't see much need for another backup. Luka, Brunson, Dinwiddie, Ntilikina can all take minutes at the 1. All of those guys plus Hardaway, Green, Brown, and Pinson can take minutes at the 2." ..... That's not the way the Mavs want to run their O. They want to have two on the floor who can create offense.

Luka, JB, SD -- that trio is perfect. Play 2, sit 1.

But if one of those 3 is out, they end up struggling unless they have another player to use to create offense. That has been Burke. They wouldn't expect it to be Franky, Green, THJ, Brown, or Pinson (they would like for Franky or Green to be able to be that guy, but tried last year and it didn't work; they don't have the skills, at least not yet).

That doesn't mean Burke has to be that extra guy. But he's already here, and no one else can do it. His contract is guaranteed so he won't be waived. It's mot much over the minimum. I don't think they would expend effort or assets to make a change.

*"that doesn't mean that the bottom half of the roster is somehow untouchable." ...Who said it was? Certainly not me. But I think guys who have a proven ability to fill a certain need (like Burke) are more likely to be kept than those who do neither. The fact that Burke is your insurance policy for THREE players makes him (or someone like him) important to have.

[Kammrath]

Personally I would prefer two big wings and one center. But I don´t think even disagree. I remember that you mentioned Liddell as a potential small ball five. That´s the kind of player that I am looking at. Maybe one PF/C hybrid. One PF/SF hybrid. And one center.

Yes exactly. I am not really suggesting guys who can ONLY play center, but guys who can be "big men" in today's NBA. That might include a guy like Nurkic and another hybrid big (like Liddell).

[F Gump]

Burke is at 3.3 next year. The minimum for a rookie is about 1. Because of the tax, the difference is multiplied, no? We are now firmly in your territory, certainly not mine. But is it really just a tiny difference?

Burke can't be paid any less than his minimum, which is about 2.3 or so. If the Mavs replace Burke with Dragic, for example, Dragic's minimum is about 2.9M. They certainly won't want an untested, can-barely-play rookie to be the sub when any of Luka, JB, or SD needs a day off, so anyone they signed for the minimum to take that job will be getting paid in the same range. If you sign a guy off the street to replace Burke, you have to find a team who wants Burke as part of the exercise. To me, Burke basically falls in the "not that broke, don't fix it" category.

[burekemde]

Mavs need a wing like Hunter from Hawks. A great defender, that can also play on offense, and not only shoot 3s, he has an evolving mid range game and feel for scoring around the rim. Has has potential to elevate his game next to Luka.

Essentially, we need more bbIQ, and two way players, cant get too stationary shooting 3s, but need players that can score in different ways and can also defend.

[F Gump]

There are multiple ways I might want a two centers this offseason....

1) If Boban is outgoing. Do not think that is likely however.

2) If Chriss is included in a simple trade.

3) If DP is included in a simple trade.


I would prefer to have MK be a "big wing" and only an emergency center. 

Luka/SD
JB/THJ/FN
RB/JG
DFS/MK
???/DP/???

I would prefer two other centers alongside DP and I do not count Boban. I also do not count Chriss at this point, though DAL might have plans for him to be a rotation guy this coming season.

Not sure how you are counting guys, but I would expect the Mavs to shoot for 4 centers counting Bobi.
Maxi - DP replacement - Chriss (or some other deep backup to use if 1 of the main 2 is not available) - Bobi

FWIW, I see also 4 lead guards (Luka JB SD Burke), and 6 wings (including Pinson).

The 15th slot would be for pick 26., and not part of the 4/6/4 depth chart for planning, wherever he falls.

Having 2 mascots really makes the numbers hard.

[SleepingHero]

Now, Boban? A center who can't get on the court, even when it's obvious the team needs help at center? That's a different story. Give HIS roster spot to a "young guy" big, sure.

I've said it before and I'll say it again; I feel like you're MASSIVELY undervaluing Boban's presence as a locker room guy. 

Burke I find likewise can't be played just as much as Boban. He's an inefficient PG that can't pass and can't defend. He has the ability to get hot on any given night sure, but with Diniwiddie here and with the emergence of JB, Burke is redundant at best. AND he doesn't even have the benefit of being an integral locker room guy. 

That's why I am so ready to jettison him off vs. Boban who's culture/chemistry actually does matter.

EDIT: Just saw your post to df1998. Since I believe we both have the same view,  I think you can also say you and I couldn't be on more opposite ends. But like as you say, we don't have to agree on everything.

[mvossman]

There are multiple ways I might want a two centers this offseason....

1) If Boban is outgoing. Do not think that is likely however.

2) If Chriss is included in a simple trade.

3) If DP is included in a simple trade.


I would prefer to have MK be a "big wing" and only an emergency center. 

Luka/SD
JB/THJ/FN
RB/JG
DFS/MK
???/DP/???

I would prefer two other centers alongside DP and I do not count Boban. I also do not count Chriss at this point, though DAL might have plans for him to be a rotation guy this coming season.

I don't really see Chriss being a useful NBA player, but even less so at the 4 unless you are pairing him with somebody like Maxi (in which case he is effectively the 5).

Maxi was by far our best center in the playoffs.  I know you are a huge proponent of rim running bigs, but the reality is this offense can be particularly effective in 5 out and Maxi is arguably his most effective as a small ball 5.  If we are keeping Powell and Maxi, I would argue we only need one more center (preferably a starter) and potentially another 4.