2021-2022 ROSTER TALK: [ARCHIVED]

[burekemde]

I just went to look at the numbers. FWIW this year Sabonis is 0.86 PPP on post ups (2.9 possessions), MT is 1.15 PPP (1.4 possession), KP is 0.92 PPP (4.5 possessions).

Sabonis was 0.84 PPP last year, KP was 0.98 PPP, MT was 0.93 PPP.

I meant the plays he makes at 06:24 in below video.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LRbpkWgjr3o

Sabonis does this all the time, at an elite level. At the moment Luka can only throw it up for a dunk or back to 3pt. With Sabonis he has an elite player that can get the ball in mid range after pick and roll, drive and score. Sabonis, has PG skills, almost as Jokic. He drives to the basket exceptionally well. He finishes around the rim with elite touch light years ahead of any of our bigs. His positioning is what makes it happen. And Luka thrives when players know how and where to position.

Luka-Sabonis would be the best one two punch in the league IMO, they would flat out dominate. Other than Jokic, I cant think of another big that could fit better in playing style.

Not only that, but Sabonis has near PG passing skills as well. I can defintitely envision Sabonis setting the screen to Luka, receiving the pass in mid range as in the above example, drive, (and if not score) passing it out to Brunson that drives to the basket and either scores or passes further.

Sabonis is the link that would make it glue all togehter. It would make a much more flowing offense capable of easy baskets at the rim. And since Kidd is asking for this, this is definitely the player to go after. Not another KP.

[Nowitzki Way]

Maxi/Moses/ThJ for Turner/Lamb would be the most appealing non-KP deal for me.  You can always have one of KP or Turner in the game protecting the rim.  

This is closest to a realistic deal with Indy that we'll see. Just not sure it moves the needle for us. I would hope that we have a secondary deal to send KP away.

[Mavs32]

Let me put it this way, I would guess 99% of this board would take that package for KP (maybe not Jym?).  If every fan would do it, its probably too good to be true.

So because it is a deal that people would do, it won't get done?  While understanding that 99.99999% of deals talked about or made up on the internet don't get done, your point of view just seems like being negative because its easier.  debate it on the basis of the assets in the deal.

as you said, Dallas would do it.
you didn't mention Indy so I assume you think they would do it.
you mentioned Charlotte but they are desperate for a center.  Now they might just skip Dallas and go straight for Turner or even Sabonis (although that will be expensive) but KP is better than Turner in a vacuum.

[Mavs03]

I'm a big fan of Sabonis.  This trade works under the NBA trade checker.

Dallas trades KP and 2025 1st round pick

Charlotte trades Hayward and 2022 1st round pick

Indiana trades Sabonis and Lamb
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Dallas would get Sabonis and Lamb.  Charlotte would get KP.  Indiana would get Hayward and 2 1st round picks (one from Charlotte and one from Dallas)

Is that a fair deal for all 3 teams involved?

[Mikelo]

Sabonis / Luka / Brunson putting together 3 guys who are effective with the ball in their hands, poor defenders, insufficient athleticism and 3 average shooters (at best ..) .. would be redundant and a bad idea in my opinion. ..I am not passionate about the idea of ​​bringing Turner / KP together, but I would prefer it to Sabonis..at least it would address some of our more obvious needs

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personally 0 interest in moving KP ... if not for a star wing..Ingram / Brown / Anunoby +

[mvossman]

This is closest to a realistic deal with Indy that we'll see. Just not sure it moves the needle for us. I would hope that we have a secondary deal to send KP away.

That would be a huge needle mover for me.  I love Maxi but Turner is a much better player.  I think both KP and Turner would be better as lone centers, but if we are insistent on "protecting" KP, I can't think of a better option than Turner.  He is already used to playing with another center the offensive versatility would be kind of awesome.  You would also stagger them so each has plenty of minutes as the lone center, and we would always have a rim protector on the court.  Turner would also make it much easier to move KP if it comes to that.

It probably doesn't matter because my guess is Indy will get a better offer than this.

[Nowitzki Way]

That would be a huge needle mover for me.  I love Maxi but Turner is a much better player.  I think both KP and Turner would be better as lone centers, but if we are insistent on "protecting" KP, I can't think of a better option than Turner.  He is already used to playing with another center the offensive versatility would be kind of awesome.  You would also stagger them so each has plenty of minutes as the lone center, and we would always have a rim protector on the court.  Turner would also make it much easier to move KP if it comes to that.

It probably doesn't matter because my guess is Indy will get a better offer than this.

I'd take Turner over Maxi any day. But i think we'd have a hard time replacing THJ's scoring off the bench. 

We make this trade and we're looking at a starting 5 of :  Luka, Brunson, DFS, KP, Turner     w/ a bench of Bullock, Powell, Lamb, Green, Frank

i think we'd need another move because that bench would be pretty weak.

[mvossman]

I'd take Turner over Maxi any day. But i think we'd have a hard time replacing THJ's scoring off the bench. 

We make this trade and we're looking at a starting 5 of :  Luka, Brunson, DFS, KP, Turner     w/ a bench of Bullock, Powell, Lamb, Green, Frank

i think we'd need another move because that bench would be pretty weak.

I agree to some extent, but that roster would not be managed with hockey lineup changes.  We would stagger both Luka/Brunson and KP/Turner so at any point you are going to have one of each.  It would probably generally be Luka/Turner and KP/Brunson.

[burekemde]

I'm a big fan of Sabonis.  This trade works under the NBA trade checker.

Dallas trades KP and 2025 1st round pick

Charlotte trades Hayward and 2022 1st round pick

Indiana trades Sabonis and Lamb
-----------------------------------------

Dallas would get Sabonis and Lamb.  Charlotte would get KP.  Indiana would get Hayward and 2 1st round picks (one from Charlotte and one from Dallas)

Is that a fair deal for all 3 teams involved?

This would be an amazing deal! It would define our franchise and would bring a completely new and unique scheme to the Mavs, one that coach Kidd desires and has been trying to install, based on increasing the moving the ball and increasing the flow on the offense. In order to move the ball, the players need to be able to (i) pass the ball, (ii) great positioning to be in the right place to receive the pass, (iii) penetrate with the ball in the paint in order to keep defenses moving and not stall the offensive flow, and finally (iv) shoot just well enough in order to keep defenses honest. Sabonis, Luka, Brunson fit all of these requirements and are excellent and rare examples of players that have all those skills. The requirement for the shooting is less for the one setting the screen in that offense. In order to have the entire offense play that scheme, redundancy is essential within these skills. In analogy as GS need redudancy in several 3pt shooter to execute their unique scheme.

I think Dallas is building something special with Luka and Brunson in the same lineup and this is what we need to build on. We should add the player that fits that scheme and build on this Luka-Brunson combo. Its obvious that success of Mavs will be defined how well the team builds around Luka and if the team keeps Luka. Its also essential to fit Kidds idea of ball sharing at the same time. Sabonis is the key for both. He is the one that will elevate Lukas game to new heights. And one that will enable Kidds style of offense. Win win IMO.

[haveitall]

This would be an amazing deal! It would define our franchise and would bring a completely new and unique scheme to the Mavs, one that coach Kidd desires and has been trying to install, based on increasing the moving the ball and increasing the flow on the offense. In order to move the ball, the players need to be able to (i) pass the ball, (ii) great positioning to be in the right place to receive the pass, (iii) penetrate with the ball in the paint in order to keep defenses moving and not stall the offensive flow, and finally (iv) shoot just well enough in order to keep defenses honest. Sabonis, Luka, Brunson fit all of these requirements and are excellent and rare examples of players that have all those skills. The requirement for the shooting is less for the one setting the screen in that offense. In order to have the entire offense play that scheme, redundancy is essential within these skills. In analogy as GS need redudancy in several 3pt shooter to execute their unique scheme.

I think Dallas is building something special with Luka and Brunson in the same lineup and this is what we need to build on. We should add the player that fits that scheme and build on this Luka-Brunson combo. Its obvious that success of Mavs will be defined how well the team builds around Luka and if the team keeps Luka. Its also essential to fit Kidds idea of ball sharing at the same time. Sabonis is the key for both. He is the one that will elevate Lukas game to new heights. And one that will enable Kidds style of offense. Win win IMO.

Is Sabonis that much better than KP? Maybe he shoots a higher percentage.  Does Carlisle think a reunion with KP is a great idea?  I doubt the answer is yes on both.

[burekemde]

Is Sabonis that much better than KP? Maybe he shoots a higher percentage.  Does Carlisle think a reunion with KP is a great idea?  I doubt the answer is yes on both.

Yes to first, no to second. Sabonis is the next Jokic already. There is not another big other than Jokic that can score under basket and with that intelligence, settings screens and passing skills. He would be a top 5 player in the league next to Luka, I have not a single doubt about it. His skills are light years ahead of KP's.

Great point. RC does not want KP. It would need to be a 3 way trade. How about KP to Philly, Simmons to Indy, and Sabonis to Mavs?

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That makes more sense. He is 1.31 PPP as the roll man, KP is 1.11, MT is 1.19 this year.

And for the record I am not the most familiar with his game, so I am just looking at the numbers blind, so to speak.

Thanks Kamm for looking up and correcting my terminology. I guess back to the basket as I used initially is a term used more when posting up, or? I think it is as a screening and roll man he is absolutely elite.

As a roll man, he is absolutely amazing (Sabonis). It is his incredible IQ for positioning that stands out and all around game. Under the basket, he is simply unstoppable with finishing, very similar to Jokics game.

IMO he is 10x times the player than KP.

[mvossman]

Yes to first, no to second. Sabonis is the next Jokic already. There is not another big other than Jokic that can score under basket and with that intelligence, settings screens and passing skills.  He would be a top 5 player in the league next to Luka, I have not a single doubt about it. His skills are light years ahead of KP's.

Great point. RC does not want KP. It would need to be a 3 way trade. How about KP to Philly, Simmons to Indy, and Sabonis to Mavs?

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Thanks Kamm for looking up and correcting my terminology. I guess back to the basket as I used initially is a term used more when posting up, or? I think it is as a screening and roll man he is absolutely elite.

As a roll man, he is absolutely amazing (Sabonis). It is his incredible IQ for positioning that stands out and all around game. Under the basket, he is simply unstoppable with finishing, very similar to Jokics game.

IMO he is 10x times the player than KP.

I don't think this is fair comparison with KP.  Sabonis is a way more skilled interior offensive player, but KP brings something completely different to the table.  A center that can protect the rim and space the floor has a lot of value in its own right.  

Sabonis is a great player, but he is a center that does not protect the rim.  You suggested he fits perfectly with what Kidd wants to do offensively, but I'm not he fits the bill defensively.  A Sabonis/Luka/Brunson group would be awesome offensively, but it would be tough to make that defense above average.  I think if you are trading for Sabonis, it probably makes sense to ship Brunson out.

[burekemde]

I don't think this is fair comparison with KP.  Sabonis is a way more skilled interior offensive player, but KP brings something completely different to the table.  A center that can protect the rim and space the floor has a lot of value in its own right.  

Sabonis is a great player, but he is a center that does not protect the rim.  You suggested he fits perfectly with what Kidd wants to do offensively, but I'm not he fits the bill defensively.  A Sabonis/Luka/Brunson group would be awesome offensively, but it would be tough to make that defense above average.  I think if you are trading for Sabonis, it probably makes sense to ship Brunson out.

You have definitely a point that Sabonis is better offensive than defensive player. That being said we have seen plenty of Luka and Brunson and it is working well on both ends. Sabonis is not an elite defender, but neither is Jokic, and he might not be elite but he is also not bad defender. I think the defensive minded players are Maxi and DFS. Maxi covers defensively what Sabonis does not. Sabonis and Maxi are an excellent fit. Maxi and KP are not in the same manner. Getting Sabonis, would turn Maxi into a better fit for the team as well.

I fully agree that KP brings skills that Sabonis does not, you have great points and we would miss out on these skills. These skills of KP are very hard to incorpoprate in the offense Kidds wants, we have seen it for long that it simply is too hard to integrate with Luka. Other teams would need more of those skills of KP. We need passing, elite low post finishing and driving with the way Luka can find the big men, sharing the ball, its a perfect offensive fit with Luka and Brunson. Im fully confident it would make this team considerably better, although for sure not in every single department. Most importantly, I think it would define a new scheme that our players fit within.It would make Luka better, it would make Maxi better, and it would make Sabonis also better. Most likely Brunson as well with the space for drives he would get. He is terrific once he gets a chance to enter the paint.

[cow]

No to Sabonis.  No to sending out FRPs.

[dirkfansince1998]

No to Sabonis.  No to sending out FRPs.

Is there an all in scenario where giving up the remaining first round picks is an option? Let´s say turning KP, matching salary and picks into Turner and Grant.
In a way it feels like the Mavs should take the next step this season and that involves a trade. Problem is that they already made a premature move that at least somewhat backfired. Because of that the Mavs margin for error is really small.

[Tikkun Olam]

You have definitely a point that Sabonis is better offensive than defensive player. That being said we have seen plenty of Luka and Brunson and it is working well on both ends. Sabonis is not an elite defender, but neither is Jokic, and he might not be elite but he is also not bad defender. I think the defensive minded players are Maxi and DFS. Maxi covers defensively what Sabonis does not. Sabonis and Maxi are an excellent fit. Maxi and KP are not in the same manner. Getting Sabonis, would turn Maxi into a better fit for the team as well.

I fully agree that KP brings skills that Sabonis does not, you have great points and we would miss out on these skills. These skills of KP are very hard to incorpoprate in the offense Kidds wants, we have seen it for long that it simply is too hard to integrate with Luka. Other teams would need more of those skills of KP. We need passing, elite low post finishing and driving with the way Luka can find the big men, sharing the ball, its a perfect offensive fit with Luka and Brunson. Im fully confident it would make this team considerably better, although for sure not in every single department. Most importantly, I think it would define a new scheme that our players fit within.It would make Luka better, it would make Maxi better, and it would make Sabonis also better.  Most likely Brunson as well with the space for drives he would get. He is terrific once he gets a chance to enter the paint.

[cow]

Is there an all in scenario where giving up the remaining first round picks is an option? Let´s say turning KP, matching salary and picks into Turner and Grant.
In a way it feels like the Mavs should take the next step this season and that involves a trade. Problem is that they already made a premature move that at least somewhat backfired. Because of that the Mavs margin for error is really small.

I think it would need to be a slam dunk so to speak.  That's not Turner in my eyes.  For marginal upgrades, it would be more tolerable if you could flip another asset for the first you'd use in the trade.    I'm not really sold on Sabonis (is he an empty calorie all-star) and you'd certainly have to overpay to get him here.  I'm kind of iffy on Grant too but if that includes THJ, it is more attractive.

[Tikkun Olam]

KP misses roughly 40% of the games . For me that significantly decreases his value When you add his availability issues with his salary those are huge red flags. If you are going to target Sabonis you're going to need more assets. Turner would be cheaper and maybe a better fit. I would love to unload THJ's contract. Two disgruntled players worth mentioning might be Julius Randle and John Collins. Randle's situation is getting ugly. If you are going to move KP, now is the time. He has played well and has not missed significant time due to injury. I would be careful not to disturb the chemistry. It is great right now, especially on defense.

[Mikelo]

I don't see Luka and Sabonis being such good fits..in fact I would say they are a bit redundant..I see some problems .. 1Sabonis cannot stretch the floor, one of Luka's best skills is generating a ton of 3 and Domantas is a below average shooter and is not respected in the perimeter = clogged paint for Luka 2 Luka is the Majorcan player in the league and quite bad playing outside of it .. Sabonis is only effective with Balon, add Brunson to the equation and we have a mess .. 3 Brunson / Luka / Sabonis on defense .. ??? That is a hole in the guard, wing and huge tire protection, we would be destroyed by any serious team .. In short .. I don't see how Sabonis complements himself with our young Superstar .. Elite scorer and playmaker and dubious defense..Reasonable resemblances I would say .. I think what we need is a strong forward, who can make 3..Anunoby / Gordon / Siakam / Isaak .... Kyle Anderson / Nance / Boucher

[TXBamanut]

I heard a stat on LOM yesterday, I think.

KP is one of 5 players in the league that average at least 20 points, 8 rebounds and 1 block.

The others...AD, Embiid, Giannis, and KAT.

And that's with him in a slump from 3 point.

It is amazing to me the "dump him for peanuts" crowd... Everyone on this board would trade for any of those guys and would expect to give KP, Brunson and a FRP and probably more to get any of those guys, and everyone here would probably go for some sort of trade package with KP + multiple assets for one of those guys.

I'm not even saying he's the same player, but I like the way the LOM guys put it.  It didn't mean your saying that he is one of those guys, but it shows what a unique player and skillset that he truly is AND careerwise, he's a better 3 point shooter than all of them except Karl Anthony "the greatest big man shooter in the history of the NBA" Towns.