MAVS NEWS:

[KillerLeft]

Next year may be a surprise, but I have a hard time imagining two 33-year olds and a 19-year old competing for the top spot in the west. Especially when you look at Houston, San Antonio, and OKC. 

Irving hasn't even played 60 games in a season since the 2019-20 season. Davis has just done it once in that time frame

No argument. 

But, look at it a different way: What odds would you give me that Kyrie/AD are the literal two best players Flagg ever has a chance to play with here in Dallas, no matter how long he plays here? 

You can call it optimistic on my part to wonder if that team can be good enough, but I'd say it's more optimistic to think replacing that amount of talent is a simple matter of time or resources. Meanwhile, slight failure on staying the course might mean a couple of 50-win seasons and maybe a conference finals berth, which should help Flagg prepare for the next nucleus, in theory. Slight failure in the other direction, and we don't get a single second of meaningful basketball around here until he's halfway through his second contract, if he's even still here. 

Just saying, the worry can cut both ways. I think they should A) hire a good to great GM and B) do what he thinks, given all the info available. That could end up with the team headed in a variety of directions, but what I'm pushing back against with Mvossman, specifically, is that I don't feel the need to hope for anything just because I think they'll screw up less than they might if a different direction is chosen. They'll either be a good front office or they won't. If they're not, they'll find a way to blow it.

[KillerLeft]

Especially when you look at Houston, San Antonio, and OKC.  

And just to point out how differently all this can be viewed, the team I bet on to win the West THIS SEASON isn't even on your list, and I still feel pretty good about my chances. 

This stuff can look so different so quickly.

[Winter]

No argument. 

But, look at it a different way: What odds would you give me that Kyrie/AD are the literal two best players Flagg ever has a chance to play with here in Dallas, no matter how long he plays here? 

You can call it optimistic on my part to wonder if that team can be good enough, but I'd say it's more optimistic to think replacing that amount of talent is a simple matter of time or resources. Meanwhile, slight failure on staying the course might mean a couple of 50-win seasons and maybe a conference finals berth, which should help Flagg prepare for the next nucleus, in theory. Slight failure in the other direction, and we don't get a single second of meaningful basketball around here until he's halfway through his second contract, if he's even still here. 

Just saying, the worry can cut both ways. I think they should A) hire a good to great GM and B) do what he thinks, given all the info available. That could end up with the team headed in a variety of directions, but what I'm pushing back against with Mvossman, specifically, is that I don't feel the need to hope for anything just because I think they'll screw up less than they might if a different direction is chosen. They'll either be a good front office or they won't. If they're not, they'll find a way to blow it.

You know, I am pretty happy Flagg gets to play with AD and Kyrie. That's pretty special no matter what the Mavs record is.

I don't believe there's 50-win season with this group, so you're right... I'm more pessimistic. Maybe if there were two other Mavs players who could shoot lights out from the perimeter, maybe if AD and Kyrie had healthy seasons, and Coop shot league average in 3s, they might get to 50 wins, but I kind of doubt it.

I'm for shuffling the deck with younger players now. That's what excites me personally. Seeing younger players develop alongside Flagg gives me more of a boost than the current makeup of this team. 

I don't really know why I have trouble cheering for Anthony Davis, but I'm pretty sure it's rooted in that trade. It's like a taste in my mouth I can't get rid of.

[Jakeospikez]

I hear you. I tried to account for that early on, but I'm just not feeling it.  

He's not this guy anymore... and never will be. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dkcF9oJG0_c



The two-timeline thing just feels weird when you watch him getting older and juxtapose Flagg's play in the same game.

I don't think that really shows much. Luka is in his prime right now and you can go look at his rookie highlights and see a completely different player flying all over the place. They both bulked up a lot and play differently. AD is still a great player. Who knows for how much longer but the sports science/nutrition is a bit better these days. KD still is dominant at 37 but he may be one of the outliers since his game ages so well. AD will always carry the injury prone tag with him though.

[mvossman]

No argument. 

But, look at it a different way: What odds would you give me that Kyrie/AD are the literal two best players Flagg ever has a chance to play with here in Dallas, no matter how long he plays here? 

You can call it optimistic on my part to wonder if that team can be good enough, but I'd say it's more optimistic to think replacing that amount of talent is a simple matter of time or resources. Meanwhile, slight failure on staying the course might mean a couple of 50-win seasons and maybe a conference finals berth, which should help Flagg prepare for the next nucleus, in theory. Slight failure in the other direction, and we don't get a single second of meaningful basketball around here until he's halfway through his second contract, if he's even still here. 

Just saying, the worry can cut both ways. I think they should A) hire a good to great GM and B) do what he thinks, given all the info available. That could end up with the team headed in a variety of directions, but what I'm pushing back against with Mvossman, specifically, is that I don't feel the need to hope for anything just because I think they'll screw up less than they might if a different direction is chosen. They'll either be a good front office or they won't. If they're not, they'll find a way to blow it.

A couple of 50 win seasons and a finals birth is not a slight failure, its the ceiling.  The more likely scenario is injuries keep you on the mediocre train for years.

The single best way for this team to speed up the reset process is in the upcoming draft.  The best way to improve those draft odds is to fire sale all of the older vets (AD, Klay, Dlo, etc) at the TDL.

You have made comments in the past that we can't start a rebuild until we have access to our own firsts.  By then Flagg will be in his prime and those firsts will be limited in value.  Not sure why getting a couple firsts in AD trade would be any less valuable than the Mavs firsts?

There are ways to get quality complementary pieces without assets.  DJJ and Naji were both cheap on the open market.  Grimes was salary dump and some second rounders.  They also have legit assets in PJ, Gafford and Naji.  There are plenty of options.

If Flagg turns out to be the superstar we need him to be, it won't be that hard to build a team around him rather quickly that should be making the playoffs every season.  I certainly don't think they will have to wait 6 years for meaningful games, especially if they get a lottery pick in the coming draft and a couple of assets from AD.

[F Gump]

 Is it possible this organization will not navigate that situation correctly and greatly delay the long term in a short sighted grab at the short term?  I think the answer is yes.  

Having a fire sale with Luka (running away from presumed disaster ahead, and being desperate to make a trade no matter what) is what landed the Mavs where they are. Please, not again. There is no rush, and they need to wait until the market for AD and others is STRONG before they let talent go. For now, they are only getting junk offers, and that won't change until teams believe the Mavs are not in a hurry to move players for whatever they can get.

Acting quickly - just to act quickly - is a recipe for more bad moves.

And getting changes over with, in a hurry, doesn't help avoid the potential for horrendous mistakes. If the new MBT cannot navigate the right moves (as you want to assume), then you are forcing the ones you have declared to be incompetent to increase their impact by actively being the ones to make more moves. And then you will have to be tasking these incompetents to move forward and build a winner, using their incompetence to do it. 

The ONLY wise way to move forward is to get a MAJOR talent running the show, as well as severely minimizing any opportunity for huge blunders before he arrives.

[mvossman]

Having a fire sale with Luka (running away from presumed disaster ahead, and being desperate to make a trade no matter what) is what landed the Mavs where they are. Please, not again. There is no rush, and they need to wait until the market for AD and others is STRONG before they let talent go. For now, they are only getting junk offers, and that won't change until teams believe the Mavs are not in a hurry to move players for whatever they can get.

Acting quickly - just to act quickly - is a recipe for more bad moves.

And getting changes over with, in a hurry, doesn't help avoid the potential for horrendous mistakes. If the new MBT cannot navigate the right moves (as you want to assume), then you are forcing the ones you have declared to be incompetent to increase their impact by actively being the ones to make more moves. And then you will have to be tasking these incompetents to move forward and build a winner, using their incompetence to do it. 

The ONLY wise way to move forward is to get a MAJOR talent running the show, as well as severely minimizing any opportunity for huge blunders before he arrives.

I feel like there is a lot of talking over each other.  At no point have I ever argued that the process should be to "act quickly just to act quickly".  In fact I have not made any argument regarding process at all.  I have simply stated what I hope happens, that they get quality offers for these guys (particularly AD) at some point by the TDL and that they take them.  

For those of you hoping they sit on their hands until they hire a GM/end of season, I think you will likely get your wish.  I think its potentially a missed opportunity, but I have little hope of it playing out differently.

[F Gump]

I feel like there is a lot of talking over each other.  At no point have I ever argued that the process should be to "act quickly just to act quickly".  In fact I have not made any argument regarding process at all.  I have simply stated what I hope happens, that they get quality offers for these guys (particularly AD) at some point by the TDL and that they take them.  

For those of you hoping they sit on their hands until they hire a GM/end of season, I think you will likely get your wish.  I think its potentially a missed opportunity, but I have little hope of it playing out differently.

If I'm not addressing what you are truly saying, then I think your message is contradictory. 

There's some logic missing, when you want the Mavs to act even if they haven't hired the expert, and your rationale is that you fear ~~~~ (*what, exactly*) ~~~ that waiting until they have an expert means they will end up making stupid inexpert moves as a result of doing them with an expert? C'mon, that's really backwards. 

What sort of "opportunity" would they be missing, to force the unskilled to make deals, force deals, find a deal, deal-to-have-a-deal, (I know you object to all those descriptions, yet it's really what you are saying, when we get to the bottom line), rather than reserve potential roster-bending trade decisions (and the overall direction of the roster building) for the hands of someone with expertise and experience?

More than that, I don't get the rush. OF ALL TIMES, this is when 29 other GM's are going to make junk offers and try to rape the Mavs like Pelinka did. The Mavs FO reeks of desperation. and of weakness, and stupidity too. This is when you MUST sit, you must wait, show no hurry, show not even the slightest interest in these Mavs Talent for Someone's Junk ideas, and be willing to yawn past the TDL and keep going. With all due respect, the idea that the Mavs NEED to make a deal right away to sell off  top talent is the very reason they need to do nothing. (And the lack of a GM makes it easy for Dumont to say no.)

[FireNicoHarrison]

I prefer let street clothes expires than trade him for junk.

This FO needs to regain his credibility after Luka "gift for the league". No more stupid move. Respect to the fans please

[Chicagojk]

The further we get away, the crazier the plan of having Kyrie as your only offensive creator, PJ at the small forward, AD at PF and a roster that lacks shooting really shows.   There were so many errors.   Were there other voices in the organization pushing back (not even talking about the Luka trade), but the whole fit of the team?    Take away PJ and add a point guard and what does this roster look like now?

[Smitty]

I couldn’t watch the game last night but see the comments that Kidd went with AD at the 4 in the 4th quarter and also pregame or postgame (not sure which) went out of his way to say he’ll get AD at the 4 a lot more.

IF that’s truly the case then I don’t see a way forward with Davis on the roster. He is an elite Big and a below average Wing at this point in his career. I don’t know how a GM or HC could think otherwise. And I don’t blame Davis at all. The player is going to believe he’s elite at whatever, it’s the FO and coaching staffs job to put each player in a position to succeed. Davis at the 4, with another non-shooter at 5 and a non-shooter in Flagg is a recipe for losing!

[Winter]

I couldn’t watch the game last night but see the comments that Kidd went with AD at the 4 in the 4th quarter and also pregame or postgame (not sure which) went out of his way to say he’ll get AD at the 4 a lot more.

IF that’s truly the case then I don’t see a way forward with Davis on the roster. He is an elite Big and a below average Wing at this point in his career. I don’t know how a GM or HC could think otherwise. And I don’t blame Davis at all. The player is going to believe he’s elite at whatever, it’s the FO and coaching staffs job to put each player in a position to succeed. Davis at the 4, with another non-shooter at 5 and a non-shooter in Flagg is a recipe for losing!

That AD switcheroo is totally out of the question for me (unless there's some hidden mission in tanking). 

Also agree with Chicago's post above. This roster has more than just a couple of issues.

[mvossman]

If I'm not addressing what you are truly saying, then I think your message is contradictory. 

There's some logic missing, when you want the Mavs to act even if they haven't hired the expert, and your rationale is that you fear ~~~~ (*what, exactly*) ~~~ that waiting until they have an expert means they will end up making stupid inexpert moves as a result of doing them with an expert? C'mon, that's really backwards. 

What sort of "opportunity" would they be missing, to force the unskilled to make deals, force deals, find a deal, deal-to-have-a-deal, (I know you object to all those descriptions, yet it's really what you are saying, when we get to the bottom line), rather than reserve potential roster-bending trade decisions (and the overall direction of the roster building) for the hands of someone with expertise and experience?

More than that, I don't get the rush. OF ALL TIMES, this is when 29 other GM's are going to make junk offers and try to rape the Mavs like Pelinka did. The Mavs FO reeks of desperation. and of weakness, and stupidity too. This is when you MUST sit, you must wait, show no hurry, show not even the slightest interest in these Mavs Talent for Someone's Junk ideas, and be willing to yawn past the TDL and keep going. With all due respect, the idea that the Mavs NEED to make a deal right away to sell off  top talent is the very reason they need to do nothing. (And the lack of a GM makes it easy for Dumont to say no.)

This is frustrating because I literally state this is not what I am saying, and then you spend multiple paragraphs asking why I would say that.  For the tenth time, I don't think the process should be to rush or that they should feel they need to make a deal.

As for the process, I think the mindset should be focused on the future.  I think the mindset should be a willingness to trade AD if they get the right offer.  That offer should be some combination of picks and/or young players.  I think they should be willing to trade all of the vets if they get the right offer.  I think they should be willing to trade Gafford if they get the right offer.  I think the construction of this season's roster should be a very small concern when making these trades.

The idea that we don't have the permanent GM yet, so we should do nothing at the TDL for fear of getting "raped" is not good process.  There are too many potential opportunities at the TDL.  They may get the best offer they will ever get for AD.  One more significant injury could tank his value for the rest of that contract.  There is a good chance this will be the most value Klay has and the best chance to get off Dlo and his player option.  I also think Gafford is a fish out of water without an elite P&R PG.  I think they should sell high on him if the offer is right.  This is a team in transition and I don't think they can afford to sit out a very important trade period.

[FireNicoHarrison]

Plus we don't need a magic GM to trade street clothes high... We need a no sold to Silver GM like Harrison though.

[Nowitzki Way]

The further we get away, the crazier the plan of having Kyrie as your only offensive creator, PJ at the small forward, AD at PF and a roster that lacks shooting really shows.   There were so many errors.   Were there other voices in the organization pushing back (not even talking about the Luka trade), but the whole fit of the team?    Take away PJ and add a point guard and what does this roster look like now?

I've hesitated to say that out loud. But P.J. is really the one who doesn't fit anymore.  Nor does Gafford.   The two trades Nico received the most credit for. 

But the whole offseason roster construction made no sense if Kyrie was gong to be out for the first part if not majority.

[KillerLeft]

I've hesitated to say that out loud. But P.J. is really the one who doesn't fit anymore.  Nor does Gafford.   The two trades Nico received the most credit for. 

Yep, it's obvious. 

Both bring elements sorely needed on a roster built around Luka, and while they're both still good players, their strong qualities don't shine as much on this new team, while their weaknesses are more obvious than ever.

[RoyTarpleysGhost]

The further we get away, the crazier the plan of having Kyrie as your only offensive creator, PJ at the small forward, AD at PF and a roster that lacks shooting really shows.   There were so many errors.   Were there other voices in the organization pushing back (not even talking about the Luka trade), but the whole fit of the team?    Take away PJ and add a point guard and what does this roster look like now?

There wasn't even much pushback on this forum.  Everyone was either

1. we have too much talent to not be good.  Force other teams to play big. 

2. Mavs shouldn't make any trades.  We have a bunch of good players and should be patient.

I guess our patience now needs to extend to a GM hire in the offseason? At least we know whatever this is doesn't work.

[mvossman]

There wasn't even much pushback on this forum.  Everyone was either

1. we have too much talent to not be good.  Force other teams to play big. 

2. Mavs shouldn't make any trades.  We have a bunch of good players and should be patient.

I guess our patience now needs to extend to a GM hire in the offseason?  At least we know whatever this is doesn't work.

I think there was a third group that felt this season is mostly about Flagg development and were just happy Nico didn't do anything insanely stupid.

[Nowitzki Way]

Yep, it's obvious. 

Both bring elements sorely needed on a roster built around Luka, and while they're both still good players, their strong qualities don't shine as much on this new team, while their weaknesses are more obvious than ever.

In hindsight, Nico should have sold high on Gafford after the Luka trade. Lakers probably would have thrown in the stuff they tried to trade for Mark Williams had we included Gafford in the Luka trade. 

I'd rather have that 31 1st rounder and the 30 pick swap rather than Gafford right now.

[Jmaciscool]

In hindsight, Nico should have sold high on Gafford after the Luka trade. Lakers probably would have thrown in the stuff they tried to trade for Mark Williams had we included Gafford in the Luka trade. 

I'd rather have that 31 1st rounder and the 30 pick swap rather than Gafford right now.

"Look Nico, we know Gafford's value is going to drop since you're trading us Luka. Why don't you throw him and your 26 pick in and we'll give you a pick swap in 30 in exchange."