Naji Marshall Signs Extension W/DAL

[cow]

I don't think its even close.  It was a bad trade but just look at the results, after KP trade Mavs go on to have the most playoff success in over 10 years.  After Luka trade they go from finals to lottery.  They probably didn't manage him perfectly, but they guy himself made comments that most of it was his fault.  He was never going to be that number 2 guy the Mavs needed.  He was like the 4th option on that Boston team (when he played) and it didn't seem to matter if he was on the court or not, and he missed like half his games the last three years.  

For recent failures, I would argue the Brunson fiasco was way worse than KP.

-Dug an asset hole to get Luka in the first place.  
-Dug a further asset hole for an injured KP after just one year of Luka because Cuban has zero patience
-Extended KP before he was healthy or even played a game with Luka to see the fit.
-Allowed Luka to freeze him out and diminished his role on the team.
-Traded him to the Wizards when his value was rock bottom for Dinwiddie and Bertans (one of the worst contracts in the league) and tipped the Wizards a second round pick in the process.

KP bounces back in Washington, Boston trades for him, wins a championship (against who?), and earned a few new paydays along the way.  If we'd shown a little patience, we could have built a contender much sooner for the years we spun our wheels digging out of the KP hole that was made all the worse by giving THJ another semi-big contract when his previous bad contract was part of the tax for acquiring KP in the first place.  

Brunson was horrible (another championship winner) but that wasn't a trade but should have been since we were too stupid (I put myself in that "we") to extend him.  

It will be interesting to see if AD has a similar bounce from his all time low value of being a Mav like KP did.

[Knutsen]

-Dug an asset hole to get Luka in the first place.  
-Dug a further asset hole for an injured KP after just one year of Luka because Cuban has zero patience
-Extended KP before he was healthy or even played a game with Luka to see the fit.
-Allowed Luka to freeze him out and diminished his role on the team.
-Traded him to the Wizards when his value was rock bottom for Dinwiddie and Bertans (one of the worst contracts in the league) and tipped the Wizards a second round pick in the process.

KP bounces back in Washington, Boston trades for him, wins a championship (against who?), and earned a few new paydays along the way.  If we'd shown a little patience, we could have built a contender much sooner for the years we spun our wheels digging out of the KP hole that was made all the worse by giving THJ another semi-big contract when his previous bad contract was part of the tax for acquiring KP in the first place.  

Brunson was horrible (another championship winner) but that wasn't a trade but should have been since we were too stupid (I put myself in that "we") to extend him.  

It will be interesting to see if AD has a similar bounce from his all time low value of being a Mav like KP did.

It’s whataboutism, but what would our best lineup have looked like - something like

Brunson
Luka
DJJ
PJ
KP

with hopefully a couple more very good defenders and shooters on the bench?

Using KP in a Mini-Towns-role would have made that team unstoppable on offense.
Defense would be very tough, but I guess that could be a championship team for sure, don’t you think?

[mvossman]

It’s whataboutism, but what would our best lineup have looked like - something like

Brunson
Luka
DJJ
PJ
KP

with hopefully a couple more very good defenders and shooters on the bench?

Using KP in a Mini-Towns-role would have made that team unstoppable on offense.
Defense would be very tough, but I guess that could be a championship team for sure, don’t you think?

If I am reading COW post right, his biggest issue is that they traded for KP at all.  He is calling the entire KP experience a massive negative, from the assets they paid to get him, to his mismanagement (which I think was mostly on him), to the negative assets they took on to dump him.

I don't think KP was ever going to work here.  He needed to go to Wizards purgatory to grow up.  His role at Boston was much smaller than it was in Dallas and he had learned to accept it.

[windjc]

Boy I’m sooooo glad Cuban is gone. Glorious. Just glorious.

[cow]

If I am reading COW post right, his biggest issue is that they traded for KP at all.  He is calling the entire KP experience a massive negative, from the assets they paid to get him, to his mismanagement (which I think was mostly on him), to the negative assets they took on to dump him.

I don't think KP was ever going to work here.  He needed to go to Wizards purgatory to grow up.  His role at Boston was much smaller than it was in Dallas and he had learned to accept it.

You caught my drift.  I struggle to think of anything positive from the KP experience.  It really set our team building around Luka back a few giant steps which makes the accomplishments of those Luka teams even more impressive even if he was a big part of why KP didn't work out.  KP bounced back and earned a lot of paydays, but I'd be lying if I said watching him play doesn't give me PTSD.

[F Gump]

I don't remember the specific timeline very clearly, but I seem to recall a growing sentiment after 2019, when Kawhi Leonard didn't re-sign, that he also held onto his players too long instead of moving them to take a slight step back in order to open the way forward, too. All of those guys were shopped constantly, but the only one he pulled the trigger on was Annonuby, and that was probably because he got a king's ransom from a highly motivated NY team in exchange. 

Don't get me wrong - you don't want to give good players away, but holding onto a roster that doesn't fit together because teams aren't offering what you want is a little like cutting off your nose to spite your face in my book. Maybe the Mavs' plan will make sense soon, but the TOR plan from back then got stuck in a waiting game and I kind of feel like that's eventually what got him fired.

While I have these kinds of concerns too, as with Naji, isn't there's a degree of being "unrealistic" when idly bashing "holding onto a roster that doesn't fit together because teams aren't offering what you want"?

Because, what was their alternative - just toss all their players in the trash because other teams won't give them what they need in exchange? If you can't find the right trade to make your roster better, it seems to me you have what you have and are in a find/draft & develop world. Forcing trades and working from the mindset of desperation is a good way to just get worse imo. 

MU had to trade (and pay dearly) for Batman, but he got a title out of that trade for TOR. However the criticism comes because he couldn't find that trade again to get another Batman. It looks to me like he's starting this time with a much different challenge - he has the Batman, and a Robin too.

Now if he can only find another Lowry, VanVleet, and/or DeRozan to be the engine.

[david75090]

When they traded for KP, I liked the idea of KP, but not the reality. To know KP, is to trade KP. There are other players who are like that. Probably a lengthy list. The grass is greener until it's on your side of the fence, then you notice it's not the desired shade, upon closer inspection.

[Knutsen]

You caught my drift.  I struggle to think of anything positive from the KP experience.  It really set our team building around Luka back a few giant steps which makes the accomplishments of those Luka teams even more impressive even if he was a big part of why KP didn't work out.  KP bounced back and earned a lot of paydays, but I'd be lying if I said watching him play doesn't give me PTSD.

I think we were kind of destined to get him. 

Why?

Because of Dirk - we were the one team that couldn’t be immune to the chance of the new, „modern“ Dirk that Porzingis as the Unicorn was supposed to be. So our history doomed us so to say.

[cow]

I think we were kind of destined to get him. 

Why?

Because of Dirk - we were the one team that couldn’t be immune to the chance of the new, „modern“ Dirk that Porzingis as the Unicorn was supposed to be. So our history doomed us so to say.

I think we all had some excitement, but with him being in the midst of that injury not to mention the nature of that injury while being that tall there were equal parts there were equal parts skepticism.  That doesn't even factor in his contract status.  It's probably a move we armchair GMs would make, but a good front office probably takes a good long pause on.  Waiting for the Luka debt to be fulfilled before making the big swing would have been smarter, but maybe that's just hindsight talking.  And without pushing all your chips in, maybe that gives JB more minutes to develop and the MBT to understand his value.  And again, for the record, I wasn't even sure given JB the rumored extension was a good idea.  I just thought he was too small and he and Luka being so deficient on defense wasn't a great pairing.

[FireNicoHarrison]

There will never be another Dirk.

[Dundalis]

I don't remember the specific timeline very clearly, but I seem to recall a growing sentiment after 2019, when Kawhi Leonard didn't re-sign, that he also held onto his players too long instead of moving them to take a slight step back in order to open the way forward, too. All of those guys were shopped constantly, but the only one he pulled the trigger on was Annonuby, and that was probably because he got a king's ransom from a highly motivated NY team in exchange. 

Don't get me wrong - you don't want to give good players away, but holding onto a roster that doesn't fit together because teams aren't offering what you want is a little like cutting off your nose to spite your face in my book. Maybe the Mavs' plan will make sense soon, but the TOR plan from back then got stuck in a waiting game and I kind of feel like that's eventually what got him fired.

I would say a big part of it, is that Masai only had one season with a true number 1 offensive option on his team. Obviously that type of player is the hardest to acquire, and may have partially informed his decision making with other assets. As in not settling for lesser returns in trades may have been about understanding that in order to acquire another superstar to carry the offense once Kawhi left, that they would very much need a huge collection of quality assets in order to try and acquire that player if one became available. If Kawhi stays (and remained healthier than he's been) they probably have a lot more success and there's zero criticism of him holding out for better deals for his players, maybe even praise. He's pretty much not gonna have the issue of figuring out how to acquire that first option superstar for many many years in Dallas which is obviously what attracted him to the job.

[KillerLeft]

I would say a big part of it, is that Masai only had one season with a true number 1 offensive option on his team. Obviously that type of player is the hardest to acquire, and may have partially informed his decision making with other assets. As in not settling for lesser returns in trades may have been about understanding that in order to acquire another superstar to carry the offense once Kawhi left, that they would very much need a huge collection of quality assets in order to try and acquire that player if one became available. If Kawhi stays (and remained healthier than he's been) they probably have a lot more success and there's zero criticism of him holding out for better deals for his players, maybe even praise. He's pretty much not gonna have the issue of figuring out how to acquire that first option superstar for many many years in Dallas which is obviously what attracted him to the job.

I understand and agree with all of the above, except if I'm reading you correctly, you seem to be assuming the goal was (and should have been) finding a replacement for Kawhi Leonard who was already established. I think that's one way to do it, but as you point out, it was unsuccessful. 

The Luka/Flagg acquisitions here in Dallas have opened my eyes to what I believe is a more preferable way of accomplishing what you outline above, and that's DRAFTING that guy. It's just as luck-dependent, maybe even more so, but to me (at least the way I'm feeling lately), at least it feels like you're taking action if you go that route. The earlier you sell on your top role players, the more draft capital you're likely to get. I'm not saying it's the only way, to your point, and BOTH paths require negotiating skill, player analysis skill, coaching skill and all the rest. At the end of the day it's all difficult, but...idk, maybe it's because I'm getting older, but standing in place waiting for the next star to go on the market just doesn't excite me anymore. It feels like a waste of time to me, and I can't shake the feeling. I realize that's EXACTLY how TOR won their championship, by being ready when Kawhi became available, but chasing that afterwards drove me a little crazy from afar, and I think I would've liked it even less if I was following the team.

Long story short, imho, sometimes you just have to flush one era and move onto the next. It's probably tough to reach consensus on the right timing for that kind of decision, even among those working in your front office, and hindsight is always 20/20, obviously. I've just learned this summer that I don't mind my team being bad as long as the bad feels like a stepping stone to something better. It's being "meh" with very little excitement on the horizon that kills my spirit, and while I don't think that's necessarily a fair assessment of where the Mavs are headed this season it's starting to look like they're going to veer a little far in that direction for my taste. It could all be way different by the trade deadline in so many areas, however, including how this team looks on the court, so we'll see.

[cow]

There will never be another Dirk.

I think Charles said it best during his retirement announcement, "he's the nicest man ever".  We really were spoiled by having him represent us.

[Dundalis]

I understand and agree with all of the above, except if I'm reading you correctly, you seem to be assuming the goal was (and should have been) finding a replacement for Kawhi Leonard who was already established. I think that's one way to do it, but as you point out, it was unsuccessful. 

The Luka/Flagg acquisitions here in Dallas have opened my eyes to what I believe is a more preferable way of accomplishing what you outline above, and that's DRAFTING that guy. It's just as luck-dependent, maybe even more so, but to me (at least the way I'm feeling lately), at least it feels like you're taking action if you go that route. The earlier you sell on your top role players, the more draft capital you're likely to get. I'm not saying it's the only way, to your point, and BOTH paths require negotiating skill, player analysis skill, coaching skill and all the rest. At the end of the day it's all difficult, but...idk, maybe it's because I'm getting older, but standing in place waiting for the next star to go on the market just doesn't excite me anymore. It feels like a waste of time to me, and I can't shake the feeling. I realize that's EXACTLY how TOR won their championship, by being ready when Kawhi became available, but chasing that afterwards drove me a little crazy from afar, and I think I would've liked it even less if I was following the team.

Long story short, imho, sometimes you just have to flush one era and move onto the next. It's probably tough to reach consensus on the right timing for that kind of decision, even among those working in your front office, and hindsight is always 20/20, obviously. I've just learned this summer that I don't mind my team being bad as long as the bad feels like a stepping stone to something better. It's being "meh" with very little excitement on the horizon that kills my spirit, and while I don't think that's necessarily a fair assessment of where the Mavs are headed this season it's starting to look like they're going to veer a little far in that direction for my taste. It could all be way different by the trade deadline in so many areas, however, including how this team looks on the court, so we'll see.

I think they can go hand in hand. By that I mean, holding out for a better return in trades can both mean wanting to load up on assets to make a big trade, AND be about wanting a lot more draft capital to get more bites at the cherry in the draft. Wanting to keep your hands in both baskets. But obviously the draft scenario is far, far more likely to simply not go that way than a trade. Like the Raptors got Scottie Barnes, who was a bit of a reach but turned into a fantastic selection, and is a fantastic NBA player, elite even. Not a number 1 option though. A super high draft pick that is a complete success story that still doesn't fit the role required.

I think the most relevant point is that Masai doesn't have to do that in Dallas. I think he knows intimately, perhaps even painfully, from his time with the Raptors how difficult, almost impossible it is to acquire that player, and he's here because he finally gets to build a team without having to factor acquiring a Batman into his team building strategies. He just has to find Robins and the right side characters. That's also not necessarily easy to find, but it's definitely much, much easier than finding a teams Batman.

It's arguable that Mavs fans are a bit spoiled in the sense that we've essentially had a Batman in place for a significant chunk of the last 30 years, and should continue to for hopefully another 15. That's nowhere close to the norm amongst NBA franchises. Yet our previous FO's still frequently fumbled the ball. So we potentially don't fully comprehend the amount of luck we've had, where I think Masai very much does.

[Knutsen]

I think they can go hand in hand. By that I mean, holding out for a better return in trades can both mean wanting to load up on assets to make a big trade, AND be about wanting a lot more draft capital to get more bites at the cherry in the draft. Wanting to keep your hands in both baskets. But obviously the draft scenario is far, far more likely to simply not go that way than a trade. Like the Raptors got Scottie Barnes, who was a bit of a reach but turned into a fantastic selection, and is a fantastic NBA player, elite even. Not a number 1 option though. A super high draft pick that is a complete success story that still doesn't fit the role required.

I think the most relevant point is that Masai doesn't have to do that in Dallas. I think he knows intimately, perhaps even painfully, from his time with the Raptors how difficult, almost impossible it is to acquire that player, and he's here because he finally gets to build a team without having to factor acquiring a Batman into his team building strategies. He just has to find Robins and the right side characters. That's also not necessarily easy to find, but it's definitely much, much easier than finding a teams Batman.

It's arguable that Mavs fans are a bit spoiled in the sense that we've essentially had a Batman in place for a significant chunk of the last 30 years, and should continue to for hopefully another 15. That's nowhere close to the norm amongst NBA franchises. Yet our previous FO's still frequently fumbled the ball. So we potentially don't fully comprehend the amount of luck we've had, where I think Masai very much does.

I would like to add to this, we are not just a little bit spoiled, we‘re super spoiled. 

Statistically it would have been perfectly normal to having to wait for Luka for 5 or 10 years after Dirk. And after squandering Luka for 10 to 15 years for Cooper (if he becomes a top 10 player).

So our „task“ is to not take that for granted, because how many teams outside the absolute top destinations like the Lakers, Celtics or Heat had a transcendent player for three decades straight?

I mean there are enough teams that didn’t have one at all in three decades, aren’t there?

[windjc]

I would like to add to this, we are not just a little bit spoiled, we‘re super spoiled. 

Statistically it would have been perfectly normal to having to wait for Luka for 5 or 10 years after Dirk. And after squandering Luka for 10 to 15 years for Cooper (if he becomes a top 10 player).

So our „task“ is to not take that for granted, because how many teams outside the absolute top destinations like the Lakers, Celtics or Heat had a transcendent player for three decades straight?

I mean there are enough teams that didn’t have one at all in three decades, aren’t there?

Yes, I think this is primarily where all this "we need MOOOOOOORE creation" nonsense comes from. Once you have Luka, who has the highest usage in the league and bends the gameplan completely around this orbit (which is why Kidd just stood and watched), you start to think this is normal. 

Give me team-ball, passing and dribble drive 5 man rotations ALL DAY LONG.  

Kyrie and Cooper and Sasser and Co. have plenty of "creation ability." Puleease.

[Scott41theMavs]

Yes, I think this is primarily where all this "we need MOOOOOOORE creation" nonsense comes from. Once you have Luka, who has the highest usage in the league and bends the gameplan completely around this orbit (which is why Kidd just stood and watched), you start to think this is normal. 

Give me team-ball, passing and dribble drive 5 man rotations ALL DAY LONG.  

Kyrie and Cooper and Sasser and Co. have plenty of "creation ability." Puleease.

I think the Mavs need a little more creation, but you make very good points here.

[ClutchDirk]

-Dug an asset hole to get Luka in the first place.  
-Dug a further asset hole for an injured KP after just one year of Luka because Cuban has zero patience
-Extended KP before he was healthy or even played a game with Luka to see the fit.
-Allowed Luka to freeze him out and diminished his role on the team.
-Traded him to the Wizards when his value was rock bottom for Dinwiddie and Bertans (one of the worst contracts in the league) and tipped the Wizards a second round pick in the process.

KP bounces back in Washington, Boston trades for him, wins a championship (against who?), and earned a few new paydays along the way.  If we'd shown a little patience, we could have built a contender much sooner for the years we spun our wheels digging out of the KP hole that was made all the worse by giving THJ another semi-big contract when his previous bad contract was part of the tax for acquiring KP in the first place.  

Brunson was horrible (another championship winner) but that wasn't a trade but should have been since we were too stupid (I put myself in that "we") to extend him.  

It will be interesting to see if AD has a similar bounce from his all time low value of being a Mav like KP did.

He has to be able to stay on the court consistently first which I doubt will happen...

[mvossman]

I think the Mavs need a little more creation, but you make very good points here.

He really didn't.  The Mavs were a very poor passing team last season (they were dead last in passes per game) and only 2 of the top 8 guys in assists (Flagg and Naji) are still on the roster (Max was 9th with 2 assists per game).  Kyrie will help, but he is not a true point guard (he averaged less than 5 assists per game in over 36 minutes before the injury).  After that you have a guy that played 12 minutes a game last year and a 20 year old rookie.  I'm sure it will be better this coming season (it really can't get worse) and I'm curious what kind of impact May can make, but this roster is a long way from being good from a creation perspective.

[windjc]

He really didn't.  The Mavs were a very poor passing team last season (they were dead last in passes per game) and only 2 of the top 8 guys in assists (Flagg and Naji) are still on the roster (Max was 9th with 2 assists per game).  Kyrie will help, but he is not a true point guard (he averaged less than 5 assists per game in over 36 minutes before the injury).  After that you have a guy that played 12 minutes a game last year and a 20 year old rookie.  I'm sure it will be better this coming season (it really can't get worse) and I'm curious what kind of impact May can make, but this roster is a long way from being good from a creation perspective.

Outside of Luka no player on any Mavs Kidd team was a great passer because Kidd’s system wasn’t about team passing. 

Most of what you worry about can be resolved with an entirely different offensive game plan. Unless you think May is an idiot when he says he wants the Mavs to be the best passing team in the NBA next year.

You are good at staring at stats but those stats tell you little about structural strategy.

When you say you are “curious about May” it sounds like someone grossly underestimating what difference coaching philosophy can make.