MAVS NEWS:

[Jym]

defense wins championships, but the majority of time we are relying on Kyrie, Klay and Spencer to chase around the elite guards. 

Maybe once Martin gets out of his body cast he could help there.

certainly can be good on defense but hard for me to see how they can be elite with those guys on the perimeter

[F Gump]

The thesis was that Nico is not concerned about long term impact and is only concerned about the next two or three years.  If the news is true that he was going hard for KD (which surely would have cost our last remaining future assets) then that thesis looks legit.  That is a two year window move that leaves this franchise in shambles for many years after.

I don't think there's anything amiss with the thesis of how Nico sees on-court window (ie it not being that long), just the claims that Nico sees himself as a short timer by choice. 

And I actually agree with Nico on the window to win being relatively short. The CBA forces constant turnover, and teams prospects don't necessarily last very long. That was Cubans stupid thinking in 2012. He wasnt smart enough to know that if you can win a title, get it now, not down the road, because tomorrow can be eroded or other teams can rise and get in the way. 

For example, look at this season, which started with BOS the strong favorite, and OKC and maybe DAL also on the cusp. But who saw any real threat from CLE, HOU, MEM? 

To speak to Luka, we have worked with an assumption that one day he will win a title. He started out way ahead, at 19. But the league has kinda passed him -- yes, the STATS are still flashy, but the efficiency and lack of defense are as bad as ever. We see him as the source of unstoppable offense, but in the Finals the Mavs lost because Luka's heliocentric offense was not unstoppable after all.

I like Luka, but that style has NEVER been good enough. To be real, Harden was the same player with about the same everything, and same results -- Harden never got a title, and is no one anymore.

[SleepingHero]

I like Luka, but that style has NEVER been good enough. To be real, Harden was the same player with about the same everything, and same results -- Harden never got a title, and is no one anymore.

It's really hard to believe this given Luka has had more playoff success than Harden has ever had at any point in their respective careers. They are different tiers of players. 

This is with Harden having had several super talented teams yet the one constant is that he himself never shows up. They don't play similar at all besides that everything runs through them as heliocentric guards. Given that Luka is one of the most ruthless, cut throat playoff performers since Jordan, I think that mindset difference is huge when everything runs through him. 

It especially rings hollow since the Mavs were on the doorstep of a championship not just 7 months ago, lost, BUT FIXED THEIR ISSUES IN THE OFFSEASON! Luka+Kyrie worked. The duo worked. The lack of offense from anyone else was the problem. And Nico somehow grabbed Klay Thompson, Grimes, and Naji to amend that. When this team was healthy they looked unbeatable.

[mvossman]

I don't think there's anything amiss with the thesis of how Nico sees on-court window (ie it not being that long), just the claims that Nico sees himself as a short timer by choice. 

And I actually agree with Nico on the window to win being relatively short. The CBA forces constant turnover, and teams prospects don't necessarily last very long. That was Cubans stupid thinking in 2012. He wasnt smart enough to know that if you can win a title, get it now, not down the road, because tomorrow can be eroded or other teams can rise and get in the way. 

For example, look at this season, which started with BOS the strong favorite, and OKC and maybe DAL also on the cusp. But who saw any real threat from CLE, HOU, MEM? 

To speak to Luka, we have worked with an assumption that one day he will win a title. He started out way ahead, at 19. But the league has kinda passed him -- yes, the STATS are still flashy, but the efficiency and lack of defense are as bad as ever. We see him as the source of unstoppable offense, but in the Finals the Mavs lost because Luka's heliocentric offense was not unstoppable after all.

I like Luka, but that style has NEVER been good enough. To be real, Harden was the same player with about the same everything, and same results -- Harden never got a title, and is no one anymore.

So much to disagree with here.

Cuban's failure was that he thought the solution was plan powder (which may have really just been an excuse to be cheap after he got his title) as opposed to accumulating assets.  

We have seen all of the teams that operate under this concept of small windows trying to build super teams as Nico appears to be trying here.  Since the dream team, they have all been failures and left those franchises in disastrous state.  

The teams that succeed have had long processes of building up roster/assets, and the ones who have been really good at have lasted several years.  The Mavs seemed to be on that path.  There would definitely been some concern with replacing Kyrie eventually, but with Luka combined with the quality of asset accumulation we had done the last two years there was still reason to hope.

And if the window is small, tell me how trading Luka for AD helps with that?  We got less talented, less continuity and less overall fit.  

But I probably disagree with your Luka take most of all.  The reason they lost that series is because Boston had significantly more talent (it also didn't help that Kyrie was terrible).  That Boston team was one of the most dominate in NBA history based on net rating.  But Dallas had closed the gap some this offseason, Boston has bigger age concerns and who knows what could happen when you have Luka.

[Scott41theMavs]

So much to disagree with here.

Cuban's failure was that he thought the solution was plan powder (which may have really just been an excuse to be cheap after he got his title) as opposed to accumulating assets.  

We have seen all of the teams that operate under this concept of small windows trying to build super teams as Nico appears to be trying here.  Since the dream team, they have all been failures and left those franchises in disastrous state.  

The teams that succeed have had long processes of building up roster/assets, and the ones who have been really good at have lasted several years.  The Mavs seemed to be on that path.  There would definitely been some concern with replacing Kyrie eventually, but with Luka combined with the quality of asset accumulation we had done the last two years there was still reason to hope.

And if the window is small, tell me how trading Luka for AD helps with that?  We got less talented, less continuity and less overall fit.  

But I probably disagree with your Luka take most of all.  The reason they lost that series is because Boston had significantly more talent (it also didn't help that Kyrie was terrible).  That Boston team was one of the most dominate in NBA history based on net rating.  But Dallas had closed the gap some this offseason, Boston has bigger age concerns and who knows what could happen when you have Luka.

The Mavs lost to the Celtics because 1) Luka was finally worn all the way down after playing hurt for almost the entire playoffs (plays into the "He's never going to get his conditioning right" narrative, but what it shows about his determination belies it), and 2) Kyrie is allergic to leprechauns.

[Jym]

I don't think there's anything amiss with the thesis of how Nico sees on-court window (ie it not being that long), just the claims that Nico sees himself as a short timer by choice. 

And I actually agree with Nico on the window to win being relatively short. The CBA forces constant turnover, and teams prospects don't necessarily last very long. That was Cubans stupid thinking in 2012. He wasnt smart enough to know that if you can win a title, get it now, not down the road, because tomorrow can be eroded or other teams can rise and get in the way. 

For example, look at this season, which started with BOS the strong favorite, and OKC and maybe DAL also on the cusp. But who saw any real threat from CLE, HOU, MEM? 

To speak to Luka, we have worked with an assumption that one day he will win a title. He started out way ahead, at 19. But the league has kinda passed him -- yes, the STATS are still flashy, but the efficiency and lack of defense are as bad as ever. We see him as the source of unstoppable offense, but in the Finals the Mavs lost because Luka's heliocentric offense was not unstoppable after all.

I like Luka, but that style has NEVER been good enough. To be real, Harden was the same player with about the same everything, and same results -- Harden never got a title, and is no one anymore.

We lost in the Finals because we faced a better, more talented team (who was healthier and more fresh)
Shame we didn't get to play the 2023 Heat

[Reunion Mav]

15

I think the thesis that Nico doesn't expect or plan to be here very long is a complete misread of what Nico said, and that misread is skewing the conversation into ideas that don't exist. 

The NBA  is a world where NO ONE has an extended shelf life in any particular job. BUT admitting that (which is all Nico did, for both himself and Kidd), isn't an expression of WANTING or even EXPECTING to leave. 

Nico took a big chance, no doubt. He put his neck on the line in this one. It has to make the Mavs better. But I don't get any sense he's wanting to be elsewhere, and think he's saying to himself, 'You all hate me now, but you'll thank me later.' And whether he's made the right call will determine his own future.

Perfectly stated. Absolutely perfect. Nico really does believe he made the right move. He also understands this could turn out badly. Everything we are all mostly saying is totally understandable and also pretty likely to be correct. But Nico does think he made the right moves for our team. The results may turn out to be evil but he is not trying to be evil. Mr Gump stated this very well. Thanks for that.

[Chicagojk]

So, this is a pretty average team right now. I have trouble seeing an avenue out of this. Even if things work perfectly. Lets play though: Lively and AD work well together and Lively can stay healthy and continue to expand his game. PJ maintains shooting 36-38 from three and proves to be a good, big wing. Kyrie can stay healthy and provide an efficient 25 a night. Christie, Marshall and Martin (Omax?) are long pests off the bench who fit certain roles.

Even if that all goes right, I still think we are two players short. One being an all star caliber player (maybe not all star, but in that range). If not KD, who fits that bill? I am having trouble identifying that player.

[Chicagojk]

I will have what Barkley is smoking:

Barkley on TNT: "I love Max Christie, too. I think people are sleeping on the Max Christie part. The Mavs are going to have a chance to win a championship this year. The Lakers don't have a chance to win the championship this year. The Mavs do.

"OKC is THE team to beat. I don't think the Lakers are better than the Mavs."

[SleepingHero]

@NBA_NewYork
"One big concern though is the safety of the players, the front office, going back to Dallas; we hope fans make the wise decision and remember this is a game and lives are far more important"

– TNT Allie LaForce reporting on the Dallas Mavericks in Boston after the Luka trade

[audiosway]

Another Dereck Lively score (only not a center, obviously) might be the best case scenario at this point. I mean, it's not like the core of the team is old...

Oh, right.

That's what sucks. We went from a team with a future that had a 25 year old player that would be the face of the NBA, 26 year old PJ, 21 year old Lively, 26 year old Gafford along with a bench full of young guys along with a couple of Vets making strong contributions. Now we are an Old core with a mismatch of younger players.

[BolsDamols]

Some people are actually putting that finals loss on Luka when he was the only one who could score and Kyrie laid a big fat egg. dafuq

[KillerLeft]

I don't think there's anything amiss with the thesis of how Nico sees on-court window (ie it not being that long), just the claims that Nico sees himself as a short timer by choice. 

And I actually agree with Nico on the window to win being relatively short. The CBA forces constant turnover, and teams prospects don't necessarily last very long. That was Cubans stupid thinking in 2012. He wasnt smart enough to know that if you can win a title, get it now, not down the road, because tomorrow can be eroded or other teams can rise and get in the way. 

For example, look at this season, which started with BOS the strong favorite, and OKC and maybe DAL also on the cusp. But who saw any real threat from CLE, HOU, MEM? 

To speak to Luka, we have worked with an assumption that one day he will win a title. He started out way ahead, at 19. But the league has kinda passed him -- yes, the STATS are still flashy, but the efficiency and lack of defense are as bad as ever. We see him as the source of unstoppable offense, but in the Finals the Mavs lost because Luka's heliocentric offense was not unstoppable after all.

I like Luka, but that style has NEVER been good enough. To be real, Harden was the same player with about the same everything, and same results -- Harden never got a title, and is no one anymore.

I agree with all of this. Every word. 

But, I still hate this. I know you're against cashing in with the mindset of going for draft capital as the primary goal, and I can see where you're coming from there, but...I can't shake the feeling that what they've done is the worst of the three choices in front of them. 

If they had chosen to continue trying to maximize this short window, but WITH Luka, I would have had hope of the next window in the back of my mind. There is always an other window with a 25 year old superstar. Heck, we were on his third window already, in a way.

If they had really, really thought it best to get out of the Luka business before giving him that Supermax, I'd have been ok with that, but would've preferred a young piece or two, along with as much draft capital as they could carry, probably followed by selling Kyrie and Thompson. Lively, Gafford, PJW, Exum, Grimes, Hardy, O-Max, etc, is not a bad place to start a rebuild, if you have enough draft capital to aggressively search for gap filling talent in the near future. It’s plausible that a few of those guys make it through to the next version of a competitive Mavs team.

But, the road they chose...artificially imposing Kyrie's window on themselves by mirroring it with Davis, just because they were in the finals last year (which never would've happened had Luka not been a catalyst for this entire reboot in the first place)...I don't know. I mean, it's not like I think they'll be a bad team without Luka, exactly, but I just don't feel like there's really a way to win a championship without that Luka-type piece, no matter how good the roster is. I get that Harrison thinks AD is that piece, and idk, maybe he's right. I know he's a heck of a player, but I just don't see it. 

Just seems like there's so little hope at a championship during that short window now, and before it felt like they were circling it, just needed a couple of things to break right. PLUS, it feels like there's little hope for them finding a way from this window to the next with any sort of efficiency due to emptying the coffers to build a team around Luka.

[KillerLeft]

Some people are actually putting that finals loss on Luka when he was the only one who could score and Kyrie laid a big fat egg. dafuq

To be fair, Luka was BAD in the finals. And honestly, I was relatively disappointed with most of his playoff run. But, we all know it's because he was out of shape and injured. Which was the chicken and which was the egg is no longer a debate that's relevant to our day to day lives as Mavs fans, but even his more ardent critics knew that IF he ever figured out how to solve some of those issues the league wouldn't be able to stop him. 

I was critical of Luka's habits BECAUSE he's great and I wanted the world to SEE his greatness in a Mavs jersey, not because I wanted him gone.

[SleepingHero]

Honestly my biggest conspiracy right now is that Nico and Kidd have been planning on trading Luka for months. This doesn't come out of the blue. I think Nico+Kidd were obviously tired of Luka. Nico's comments and his hit pieces in the media say so.

But going back, at the start of the year, Kidd radically transformed how this offense ran. He put Luka off ball the entire time. No longer did we spam spread PnR's. Sure Luka had his pet spain PnR but those were few and far between compared to last year. In fact, what Kidd replaced the PnR's with were dribble hand offs with the big man at the top of the key. More post ups. More paint touches. Looking back, it feels like Kidd changed his offense with a dominant big man in mind. It's almost like he wanted to prep this team and these guys to run a certain play style before they had the guy he really wanted.

I mean we see it when we put Gafford at the 3pt line and have Klay run around him, Gafford's defender flat out ignores him and is free to double Klay or whoever is coming off the dribble hand off (DHO). But imagine if you had, I don't know, lets say Anthony Davis in that scenario. You cannot leave AD alone in a DHO situation. He can absolutely put the ball on the floor in that situation and make teams pay.

What if Nico, and by extension Kidd, knew Luka would come into the season out of shape? What if they were ready to move on since October? What if they were planning this trade for AD for months in secrecy? As in, "if Luka does what we'll think he'll do, we cut bait". And that's exactly what happened.

I mean I don't find it a coincidence our coach changed how to run a Luka offense to a big man oriented one where the centers are creating opportunities and DHO's are used incessantly and the very same season the team trades Luka.

Just had that thought.

[F Gump]

I agree with all of this. Every word. 

But, I still hate this. I know you're against cashing in with the mindset of going for draft capital as the primary goal, and I can see where you're coming from there, but...I can't shake the feeling that what they've done is the worst of the three choices in front of them. 

If they had chosen to continue trying to maximize this short window, but WITH Luka, I would have had the next window in the back of my mind. 

If they had really, really thought it best to get out of the Luka business before giving him that Supermax, I'd have been ok with that, but would've preferred a young piece or two, along with as much draft capital as they could carry, probably followed by selling Kyrie and Thompson. Lively, Gafford, PJW, Exum, Grimes, Hardy, O-Max, etc, is not a bad place to start a rebuild, if you have enough draft capital to aggressively search for gap filling talent in the near future. 

But, the road they chose...artificially imposing Kyrie's window by mirroring it with Davis, just because they were in the finals last year (which never would've happened had Luka not been a catalyst for this entire reboot in the first place)...I don't know. I mean, it's not like I think they'll be a bad team without Luka, exactly, but I just don't feel like there's really a way to win without that Luka-type piece, no matter how good the roster is. I get that Harrison thinks AD is that piece, and idk, maybe he's right. I know he's a heck of a player, but I just don't see it. 

Just seems like there's so little hope at a championship during that short window now, and before it felt like they were circling it, just needed a couple of things to break right. PLUS, it feels like there's little hope for them finding a way from this window to the next with any sort of efficiency due to emptying the coffers to build a team around Luka.

You are correct that I would never have wanted them to trade Luka for a pile of picks. That having been said, LA didn't have enough picks anyhow, but the Mavs should have insisted on ALL of what they have along with AD and some talent.

I think Nico botched the negotiation badly, and I would have demanded Knecht as well and think that AD-Christie-Knecht-2029-2031 should have been the bare minimum. Nico exuded desperation to sell, rather than looking for a favorable deal "if" we let you have him.

In spite of that, I do think they did land a good young piece in Christie, like you say you wished they had. And I wouldn't do a sell off. I think people are sleeping on just how good Davis is, because he's been playing in Lebron's shadow. 

The idea that they CAN'T win without Luka, I don't buy that. At least not yet - let's see what it looks like when they add AD and PJW into the mix. It won't look the same as it did with Luka, and there will be some weaknesses they didn't have before that they'll have to figure out how to resolve, but I also think they'll have some new strengths that we aren't yet thinking of. I think this could indeed be a really good team. With the players they have now, I can see potential for a scrappy team that wears you out, and that teams wont want to play.

As for having "empty coffers," nah I don't buy that in the least. There are 3 veteran star players (AD, Ky, Klay) on the roster to build around for now, with the vast majority of the team still quite young with some excellence in the youth (PJW, Lively, and I wonder if Christie is going to be good enough to be seen as a starter-in-waiting). They have draft picks, excellent contracts, and the hard cap world is creating lots of player movement when you decide you need someone.

[cow]

Honestly my biggest conspiracy right now is that Nico and Kidd have been planning on trading Luka for months. This doesn't come out of the blue. I think Nico+Kidd were obviously tired of Luka. Nico's comments and his hit pieces in the media say so.

But going back, at the start of the year, Kidd radically transformed how this offense ran. He put Luka off ball the entire time. No longer did we spam spread PnR's. Sure Luka had his pet spain PnR but those were few and far between compared to last year. In fact, what Kidd replaced the PnR's with were dribble hand offs with the big man at the top of the key. More post ups. More paint touches. Looking back, it feels like Kidd changed his offense with a dominant big man in mind. It's almost like he wanted to prep this team and these guys to run a certain play style before they had the guy he really wanted.

I mean we see it when we put Gafford at the 3pt line and have Klay run around him, Gafford's defender flat out ignores him and is free to double Klay or whoever is coming off the dribble hand off (DHO). But imagine if you had, I don't know, lets say Anthony Davis in that scenario. You cannot leave AD alone in a DHO situation. He can absolutely put the ball on the floor in that situation and make teams pay.

What if Nico, and by extension Kidd, knew Luka would come into the season out of shape? What if they were ready to move on since October? What if they were planning this trade for AD for months in secrecy? As in, "if Luka does what we'll think he'll do, we cut bait". And that's exactly what happened.

I mean I don't find it a coincidence our coach changed how to run a Luka offense to a big man oriented one where the centers are creating opportunities and DHO's are used incessantly and  the very same season the team trades Luka.

Just had that thought.

I'm sure the idea had been brewing for a while but trading Luka wouldn't be received as poorly if the return hadn't been pitiful.  They've basically shortened the championship window of this team two years beyond this one if you are being generous and that's if you can get Kyrie to resign.  And in that timespan, you've got a few up-and-coming teams that will probably figure it out (even if it feels like we have OKC's number).  This year seems like a throwaway with the team in perpetual injury hell.  I really hope this goes poorly and they trade AD before the next year's TDL so we can recoup some assets.

[F Gump]

To be fair, Luka was BAD in the finals. And honestly, I was relatively disappointed with most of his playoff run. But, we all know it's because he was out of shape and injured. Which was the chicken and which was the egg is no longer a debate that's relevant to our day to day lives as Mavs fans, but even his more ardent critics knew that IF he ever figured out how to solve some of those issues the league wouldn't be able to stop him. 

I was critical of Luka's habits BECAUSE he's great and I wanted the world to SEE his greatness in a Mavs jersey, not because I wanted him gone.

I agree with this. And I felt like you do on going forward - "I was critical of Luka's habits BECAUSE he's great and I wanted the world to SEE his greatness in a Mavs jersey, not because I wanted him gone."

Having said that, I also admit I may have only seen the tip of the iceberg on Luka issues, and perhaps if I knew more I would feel differently. 

Was he ditching practices, refusing to work on anything (including teammate chemistry) except for his latest horse masterpiece, blowing off rehab and therapy and workout sessions? Were his teammates getting fed up behind the scenes, and was he a team leader that didn't take his role seriously? I'm not saying any of those are true, but the adamance with which Nico expressed his decision sure makes me wonder how deep it all went.

[F Gump]

I'm sure the idea had been brewing for a while but trading Luka wouldn't be received as poorly if the return hadn't been pitiful.  They've basically shortened the championship window of this team two years beyond this one if you are being generous and that's if you can get Kyrie to resign.  And in that timespan, you've got a few up-and-coming teams that will probably figure it out (even if it feels like we have OKC's number).  This year seems like a throwaway with the team in perpetual injury hell.  I really hope this goes poorly and they trade AD before the next year's TDL so we can recoup some assets.

"I'm sure the idea had been brewing for a while but trading Luka wouldn't be received as poorly if the return hadn't been pitiful." -- Well said.

" I really hope this goes poorly and they trade AD before the next year's TDL so we can recoup some assets." -- I think this will turn out to be a bad take, on 2 levels (but we will see). 1 I think AD is going to be so good that no one would want to trade him. 2 And I don't think you win by turning star players into a pile of picks (which rarely turn out to be as valuable as you hoped). The point of picks is to try to luck into a really good player eventually, so if you already have one, you are way ahead of the game and keep him. Just how I see it.

[GATA]

Kyrie sucks, and is a scum bag. Just a matter of time before he becomes radioactive again