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One of things I'll be interested in watching is the pace and speed of the team. Dusty got a lot of offense out of his last Michigan team, and he's now got a deep team of 20-somethings with better spacing. I hope it's noticeably different. Flagg's transition game was good and got better, and then were talking about guys like Risacher and Aldama who move well at that pace.
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(Yesterday, 03:11 PM)Chicagojk Wrote: Just one note. Holiday has a 37 mil option for the following year. I would expect he picks that up.
Good catch. I really am not into that trade, then.
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(Yesterday, 03:11 PM)cow Wrote: The ideal scenario would be to take less compensation and include Martin in a 2-for-1. We still have another year of his services after this season if he opts in. I get angry just thinking about this.
Ideal, yes. Can they afford to PAY the assets that might require? And if they can afford it, is that prudent, compared to sucking it up and waiting Martin's deal out? I'm not so sure.
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Yesterday, 03:23 PM
(This post was last modified: Yesterday, 03:27 PM by Scott41theMavs.)
(Yesterday, 03:08 PM)cow Wrote: Define good? I think .500 is within reason unless we move Kyrie by the TDL or injuries.
I personally think the team will be better than most everyone expects. May’s ball-movement approach, far better shooting, all that length and strong individual defenders, and Coop and Kyrie to close it out at the end. Even with the crazy, unbalanced roster they have now, and all the underdeveloped players, and imagining they do no more moves aside from dumping Klay or some such, I would presume they would be a 48-win team and a tough first round out, and if the total was any less than that, I would presume it’s because Kyrie ended up playing under 60 games. Without adding more guards, yes, this team will struggle badly if/when Kyrie sits with injuries.
If they make good moves to balance the roster, particularly getting a guard whom we all agree is top three among the guards we have in terms of rotation, and if any one or more of their major question marks (Tarik, Sasser, Sergio, Seva, Risacher) performs significantly better than we might expect, and if Lively is a real factor this year (playing in more than 30 games), then I believe they significantly exceed my earlier prediction.
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Yesterday, 03:25 PM
(This post was last modified: Yesterday, 03:29 PM by cow.)
(Yesterday, 03:20 PM)KillerLeft Wrote: Ideal, yes. Can they afford to PAY the assets that might require? And if they can afford it, is that prudent, compared to sucking it up and waiting Martin's deal out? I'm not so sure.
I'd try to find the middle ground. Someone wants Gafford but isn't willing to pay you the draft compensation he is worth, compromise on by including Martin. Salaries would have to align of course.
(Yesterday, 03:17 PM)KillerLeft Wrote: I think .500 is probably out of reach for this team as of right now. Would love to be wrong. I think that's about the best case scenario, and everything would have to break just right, including Kyrie AND Lively health, to reach that level.
I think it's going to take the first half of this season, at least, to figure out how they even want to try generating offense, especially with a first time NBA coach. The reason I'm ok with that is that all the moves they're making are theoretically helpful no matter what they end up settling on as a plan, and they'll also have loads of ways to play defense no matter how the rotation settles. They're doing smart things. And, don't confuse my lack of belief in May as an IMMEDIATE winner as skepticism over the hire, either. I think he's got a good basketball mind and they've got the right guy. I just don't expect him trying to ride a 19 year old to scare anyone this year.
Also...they needed a PG and didn't get one (yet). Maybe they couldn't find the right one, and if so, I'm more than happy to give De Larrea that developmental runway and hope he catches on fast as they kick the can to the next transactional window. It beats watching someone like Collin Sexton take the role. Only...if that's the way they're going, I want Risacher in the rotation, too. Maybe Johnson should play 28-32 minutes right off the bat. I want Aldama to get a juicy role. Give me some Ishenko minutes from time to time, even.
We won 26 last year while trying to lose and without Kyrie. I think he pushes us to that 35+ pretty easily along with the year 2 Cooper leap. Lively isn't really a factor in my outlook.
(Yesterday, 03:23 PM)Scott41theMavs Wrote: I personally think the team will be better than most everyone expects. May’s ball-movement approach, far better shooting, all that length and strong individual defenders, and Coop and Kyrie to close it out at the end. Even with the crazy, unbalanced roster they have now, and all the underdeveloped players, and imagining they do no more moves aside from dumping Klay or some such, I would presume they would be a 48-win team and a tough first round out, and if the total was any less than that, I would presume it’s because Kyrie ended up playing under 60 games. Without adding more guards, yes, this team will struggle badly if/when Kyrie sits with injuries.
If they make good moves to balance the roster, particularly getting a guard whom we all agree is top three among the guards we have in terms of rotation, and if any one or more of their major question marks (Tarik, Sasser, Sergio, Seva, Risacher) performs significantly better than we might expect, and if Lively is a real factor this year (playing in more than 30 games), then I believe they significantly exceed my earlier prediction.
I could be off base but I just don't see this team under 35 wins this year even if things aren't ideal.
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(Yesterday, 03:23 PM)Scott41theMavs Wrote: I personally think the team will be better than most everyone expects. May’s ball-movement approach, all that length and strong individual defenders, and Coop and Kyrie to close it out at the end. Even with the crazy, unbalanced roster they have now, and all the underdeveloped players, and imagining they do no more moves aside from dumping Klay or some such, I would presume they would be a 48-win team and a tough first round out, and if the total was any less than that, I would presume it’s because Kyrie ended up playing under 60 games. Without adding more guards, yes, this team will struggle badly if/when Kyrie sits with injuries.
If they make good moves to balance the roster, particularly getting a guard whom we all agree is top three among the guards we have in terms of rotation, and if any one or more of their major question marks (Tarik, Sergio, Seva, Risacher) performs significantly better than we might expect, and if Lively is a real factor this year (playing in more than 30 games), then I believe they significantly exceed my earlier prediction.
That seems really optimistic, especially if they don't make any other moves. Of course, Kyrie playing 60 games is optimistic as well.
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(Yesterday, 02:41 PM)cow Wrote: I think I got your point, but I'd ask why Naji is the odd man out in that equation when there are so many other outs. That's what I was trying to illustrate anyway.
I'm with you on this question. It feels like Naji is simply being labeled by haters as holding no ongoing oncourt value to the Mavs. I don't assume that's true at all.
If the Mavs have made the determination that Naji is just a temp and not a keeper, then sure, there's no reason to re-sign him next summer, and you look at the choices (do we want to bank the payroll savings for use elsewhere, when he walks, or sell it to another team by taking a player?). But is this how they see him?
The issue not being addressed is Naji's place in the lineup and its importance to the team. Just because there will be younger players on the roster doesn't mean they will be better. It would obviously make him more desirable if he could develop a reliable 3-point shot, but he does contribute in a lot of ways that can be hard to find. 30 mg, 15p 5 r per game, on good shooting efficiency despite his meh 3% (almost 60% TS %), starts about half the games, that's fairly solid production (and GREAT value at his contract).
What we don't know - and which will be a major factor, I believe - is the oncourt value of the various newcomers the Mavs are adding. Some might be great finds and definite keepers, but some may not. Where will Naji fit in that comparison? We don't know yet.
To me the biggest question might be his price tag. Something in the vicinity of the numbers you offer (3y/33-35 total) seems like good value for what he offers, if the Mavs feel he's a fit for what they are building.
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Yesterday, 03:36 PM
(This post was last modified: Yesterday, 03:37 PM by cow.)
(Yesterday, 03:29 PM)F Gump Wrote: I'm with you on this question. It feels like Naji is simply being labeled by haters as holding no ongoing oncourt value to the Mavs. I don't assume that's true at all.
If the Mavs have made the determination that Naji is just a temp and not a keeper, then sure, there's no reason to re-sign him next summer, and you look at the choices (do we want to bank the payroll savings for use elsewhere, when he walks, or sell it to another team by taking a player?). But is this how they see him?
The issue not being addressed is Naji's place in the lineup and its importance to the team. Just because there will be younger players on the roster doesn't mean they will be better. It would obviously make him more desirable if he could develop a reliable 3-point shot, but he does contribute in a lot of ways that can be hard to find. 30 mg, 15p 5 r per game, on good shooting efficiency despite his meh 3% (almost 60% TS %), starts about half the games, that's fairly solid production (and GREAT value at his contract).
What we don't know - and which will be a major factor, I believe - is the oncourt value of the various newcomers the Mavs are adding. Some might be great finds and definite keepers, but some may not. Where will Naji fit in that comparison? We don't know yet.
To me the biggest question might be his price tag. Something in the vicinity of the numbers you offer (3y/33-35 total) seems like good value for what he offers, if the Mavs feel he's a fit for what they are building.
I think a lot of the Naji hate comes down to two factors: his three point shooting as you mentioned and the analytics of him and Flagg sharing the court being a net negative. I'm not a big analytics guy and I'd throw out a lot of last season because it was a lost season when they were trying to lose and ideally the biggest chunk of Naji's playing time will come with Cooper getting rest. And because I watched so many of our dreadful games, Cooper and Naji have good chemistry. Naji knows how to defer and when to assert himself. Cooper aside, Naji is a big reason why we hung around in so many games last year. Dude can get quality shots for himself.
And I'm going to beat this drum until everyone is deaf. He wants to be here. Don't undervalue that.
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(Yesterday, 03:36 PM)cow Wrote: I think a lot of the Naji hate comes down to two factors: his three point shooting as you mentioned and the analytics of him and Flagg sharing the court being a net negative.
You're absolutely right. That's where it all comes from, and it's 100% about his on court role.
Maybe you'll end up being right that those things are misleading, and your last sentiment about him wanting to be here isn't lost on me at all. He's a very likable dude, and it's not like he's a bad player. But, for me, those analytics are a confirmation of the eye test, not contrary to it.
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I think everyone needs to chill out and wait for the May Mav’s product before talking about who needs to go or stay or unbalanced rosters etc.
No one has any idea what’s it’s going to look like. At all.
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(Yesterday, 03:39 PM)KillerLeft Wrote: You're absolutely right. That's where it all comes from, and it's 100% about his on court role.
Maybe you'll end up being right that those things are misleading, and your last sentiment about him wanting to be here isn't lost on me at all. He's a very likable dude, and it's not like he's a bad player. But, for me, those analytics are a confirmation of the eye test, not contrary to it.
I think there is value to analytics but we'd probably trade everyone not named Cooper based on last year. Naji was asked to carry a ton of burden last year which wasn't the role anyone envisioned for him when he was brought in. His role should be to come off the bench, get buckets, play hard on both ends of the court and check anyone who gets into Flagg's airspace. Everyone's treating him like he's making 20+ million a year when it's less than half of that. And I know I'd rather cheer him on than one of our 20+ million players who phoned it in for most of the season.
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Yesterday, 03:47 PM
(This post was last modified: Yesterday, 03:48 PM by Winter.)
(Yesterday, 03:36 PM)cow Wrote: ![[Image: did-we-just-become-friends-brennan-huff.gif]](https://media.tenor.com/EoakiZqC7bIAAAAM/did-we-just-become-friends-brennan-huff.gif)
I think a lot of the Naji hate comes down to two factors: his three point shooting as you mentioned and the analytics of him and Flagg sharing the court being a net negative. I'm not a big analytics guy and I'd throw out a lot of last season because it was a lost season when they were trying to lose and ideally the biggest chunk of Naji's playing time will come with Cooper getting rest. And because I watched so many of our dreadful games, Cooper and Naji have good chemistry. Naji knows how to defer and when to assert himself. Cooper aside, Naji is a big reason why we hung around in so many games last year. Dude can get quality shots for himself.
And I'm going to beat this drum until everyone is deaf. He wants to be here. Don't undervalue that.
I do think Naji with this current roster makes some sense. Last year's roster needed something else, but I could imagine Naji coming in the game when Flagg goes out. Both Flagg and Naji are a threat in the same way around the basket. I think there's even more space for Naji to work his game when it's not as crowded in the lane.
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(Yesterday, 03:46 PM)windjc Wrote: I think everyone needs to chill out and wait for the May Mav’s product before talking about who needs to go or stay or unbalanced rosters etc.
No one has any idea what’s it’s going to look like. At all.
Nope, that's true.
But, that's the entire point of this place. This is a place for "super fans" who want to talk about this stuff year round, including the "what if's," "would've/should've's," etc. We ENJOY it. We think this is FUN. If we didn't, we'd probably...not be here.
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(Yesterday, 03:47 PM)Winter Wrote: I do think Naji with this current roster makes some sense. Last year's roster needed something else, but I could imagine Naji coming in the game when Flagg goes out. Both Flagg and Naji are a threat in the same way around the basket. I think there's even more space for Naji to work his game when it's not as crowded in the lane.
+he'd get to put in work against second units. Floaters for days.
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(Yesterday, 03:47 PM)Winter Wrote: I do think Naji with this current roster makes some sense. Last year's roster needed something else, but I could imagine Naji coming in the game when Flagg goes out. Both Flagg and Naji are a threat in the same way around the basket. I think there's even more space for Naji to work his game when it's not as crowded in the lane.
I can imagine that, too.
But, is that (maximum) of 15 minutes per worth even his modest price tag? Is it worth taking the ball out of Kyrie's hands during those minutes? De Larrea's? Just food for thought.
Ultimately, what it comes down to is: how serious are the Mavs about wanting to give Flagg more space? What I can't imagine is ever thinking Marshall is the right fit on the court with Flagg when guys like Aldama, Bibervovic, De Larrea, Sasser, Rissacher and even PJW (I don't think his shooting is a strength like some, but it is compared to Marshall's) are available. I actually thought more of his minutes should have gone to Klay Thompson last year, honestly.
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(Yesterday, 03:36 PM)cow Wrote: I think a lot of the Naji hate comes down to two factors: his three point shooting as you mentioned and the analytics of him and Flagg sharing the court being a net negative. I'm not a big analytics guy and I'd throw out a lot of last season because it was a lost season when they were trying to lose and ideally the biggest chunk of Naji's playing time will come with Cooper getting rest. And because I watched so many of our dreadful games, Cooper and Naji have good chemistry. Naji knows how to defer and when to assert himself. Cooper aside, Naji is a big reason why we hung around in so many games last year. Dude can get quality shots for himself.
And I'm going to beat this drum until everyone is deaf. He wants to be here. Don't undervalue that.
The "issue" some have with Naji is about 3-pt shooting, to be sure. But to add to that, they also put a hard requirement on all Mav players other than Flagg being a floor spacer (shoot a lot of 3s as their game).
1 think that's short sighted to have such a singular criteria. I don't think that the Mavs will see that as the deciding factor for who they want to employ and play. And - this is one that's supremely ignored - I don't assume that every player they are adding will be some great floor spacer, just because we hope they can be one. What if some of these kids can't actually make 3's after all - and can't do the other things that Naji can do either? BUT - we have a whole season to see who can really contribute, and who can't, before making any hard choices.
One more factor in the mix is Flagg himself. If HE develops a 3-pt shot (and if I'm in charge, that's the one thing I have him working on developing from now until October), then they will need a player exactly like Naji is now (not another 3-pt guy), who can space the floor by forcing the defense back into the lane to stop his drives. It takes both.
Of course, another avenue is figuring out how to get 3s out of Naji at a high volume, high percentage result. That would help too.
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(Yesterday, 03:46 PM)windjc Wrote: I think everyone needs to chill out and wait for the May Mav’s product before talking about who needs to go or stay or unbalanced rosters etc.
No one has any idea what’s it’s going to look like. At all.
We are going to surprise so many people lol. Dusty is different
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Yesterday, 04:00 PM
(This post was last modified: Yesterday, 04:06 PM by cow.)
(Yesterday, 03:53 PM)KillerLeft Wrote: I can imagine that, too.
But, is that (maximum) of 15 minutes per worth even his modest price tag? Is it worth taking the ball out of Kyrie's hands during those minutes? De Larrea's? Just food for thought.
Ultimately, what it comes down to is: how serious are the Mavs about wanting to give Flagg more space? What I can't imagine is ever thinking Marshall is the right fit on the court with Flagg when guys like Aldama, Bibervovic, De Larrea, Sasser, Rissacher and even PJW (I don't think his shooting is a strength like some, but it is compared to Marshall's) are available. I actually thought more of his minutes should have gone to Klay Thompson last year, honestly.
Bolded = Bird in the hand is worth two in the bush. Naji's on court role when shared with Kyrie and Flagg is also different than Naji having to take up so much ball handling responsibility as was asked of him last year. And totally not on board with the Klay assessment. He's a liability on defense and about half the time he isn't even close to being Klay Thompson on offense anymore which he doesn't realize. But it seems like we are just ending up in the same place with Naji getting scapegoated in a sabotaged season and most everyone else getting a bit of a pass. Why isn't PJW catching more strays? I know if he comes into camp looking disheveled again, I'm going to be worried.
(Yesterday, 03:57 PM)F Gump Wrote: The "issue" some have with Naji is about 3-pt shooting, to be sure. But to add to that, they also put a hard requirement on all Mav players other than Flagg being a floor spacer (shoot a lot of 3s as their game).
1 think that's short sighted to have such a singular criteria. I don't think that the Mavs will see that as the deciding factor for who they want to employ and play. And - this is one that's supremely ignored - I don't assume that every player they are adding will be some great floor spacer, just because we hope they can be one. What if some of these kids can't actually make 3's after all - and can't do the other things that Naji can do either? BUT - we have a whole season to see who can really contribute, and who can't, before making any hard choices.
One more factor in the mix is Flagg himself. If HE develops a 3-pt shot (and if I'm in charge, that's the one thing I have him working on developing from now until October), then they will need a player exactly like Naji is now (not another 3-pt guy), who can space the floor by forcing the defense back into the lane to stop his drives. It takes both.
Of course, another avenue is figuring out how to get 3s out of Naji at a high volume, high percentage result. That would help too.
Year 2 Cooper should create more space and have more space to operate because of Kyrie. Other players should also benefit from Kyrie's gravity when sharing the floor. And yeah, everyone loves the shiny new toy, but I do think it's rather silly to think guys that have played zero NBA minutes or were cast aways are going to fit like a glove with Cooper. I've bitched about this a lot, but I also hate the fit next to Cooper narrative that gets leaned into so hard around here. For the first time in a very long time, our superstar is a two way stud. He should pair with just about anything.
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(Yesterday, 03:47 PM)cow Wrote: I think there is value to analytics but we'd probably trade everyone not named Cooper based on last year. Naji was asked to carry a ton of burden last year which wasn't the role anyone envisioned for him when he was brought in. His role should be to come off the bench, get buckets, play hard on both ends of the court and check anyone who gets into Flagg's airspace. Everyone's treating him like he's making 20+ million a year when it's less than half of that. And I know I'd rather cheer him on than one of our 20+ million players who phoned it in for most of the season.
Actually the analytics say he was pretty good in the role we asked him to play when Flagg was not on the court. He is perfect to play Flagg backup for 15-20 minutes a game. Is he going to be happy with that? Will he still want to be here? He is very likely not going to get the minutes this season that he got last season. The arguments for trading him are that you might get a significant asset for him at his peak value, he might not be happy with a reduced role and they may not be able to retain him on a reasonable contract. I think the trade value ship has sailed and for what its worth there has very little noise suggesting he is on the block.
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(Yesterday, 04:00 PM)cow Wrote: He should pair with just about anything.
A bottle of 2027 Flagg.
A vintage toasted throughout the country.
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