AROUND the NBA:

[dirkfansince1998]

Show me on the doll where Kobe hurt you?

I think maybe you don't have an appreciation for the level of talent that was needed to separate oneself as a 6'5" guard in the early 2000s, who didn't have MJ's elite athleticism. You're saying things like "Kobe always needed a great big/pick and roll partner"... like as if that's some big negative for Kobe compared to Dirk. Well, if that's the argument you're going to make, then the flip side is I could say that Dirk couldn't win diddly-squat unless he had a team that was perfectly balanced in every other position 1-5. But that's something your selective memory will not allow you to see. And if Dirk didn't need a perfectly balanced team to cover for his flaws, well, then Dirk would have had 5 titles to his name and Kobe would have had 1. But guess what? It's the opposite.

Also, check your Duncan stats fam. Duncan was one part of a great defense. He wasn't the "anchor", even though this has become the modern narrative. The actual anchor of that team, and you should know this if you've been watching the NBA closely since 1998, was the swarming defense by their perimeter defenders. When Bruce Bowen retired, the Spurs' DRTGs went to shite (by their previous lofty standards), and only came back up again when Kawhi became dominant. So who was the "anchor"? Was it Duncan, was it Bowen, was it part of a system? If Duncan was so great on defense, then why the large dip when Bowen retired? Hakeem was a much better defender than Duncan, because Hakeem was that much more athletic, and had the same if not higher BBIQ. I've seen both play in person and young Hakeem stood out way more than Duncan. And don't forget that Duncan had Parker and Ginobili (two of the best in their respective positions)... and yet still would have gone win-less from 2004-05 until forever (if not for the NBA robbing the Suns in 2006-07, and then Lebron choking in 2013-14... although, it has to be said that the Spurs 2013-14 team was more stacked than the Heatles).

While I'm on the subject of Duncan, I also want to ask this question of the "students of the game"... how is it that Kobe is inefficient, but yet he scored at a higher percentage from "post-moves" than Duncan did? Post-moves were supposed to be Duncan's forte, as a big, right?! Yet, you have a little 6'5" guard who was more efficient than him in the post? And yet, Duncan was efficient and Kobe was not? How is this possible? It's the kind of stuff that boggles my lil ole mind.

Anyway, I think Kobe was a greater player than Duncan and Dirk. 2000-01 Kobe played a heck of lot more similar to Luka, i.e., he also distributed and orchestrated, then he changed for off-court reasons (Shaq). Go back and watch the film. I also think Hakeem was greater than either Duncan or Dirk. I might even put Hakeem over Kobe too. This is a Mavs board though, and I'm aware of my audience, so I won't drag it out.

Kobe hurting/touching people is a different story that should be mentioned more often but it's not really relevant for this discussion.

Dirk did more with less. I don't think that is a controversial statement. Dirk's Mavs had a record breaking when he played next to Nash. Still ranked first/second/top five in the following seasons. Kobe went through a chucking away on a bad team period after Shaq left/before Gasol joined the Lakers. Overall Kobe had a better supporting cast and when he won it all he always had at least one all-NBA + one all-defense teammate.

I am a Mavs fans. I don't really like to praise Spurs players. Even less willing to praise Rockets. Still can admit that Duncan is the GOAT PF. He absolutely was the defensive anchor of that team. The reason why the Spurs defense only was top 5-10ish in the late 00s/early10s was directly tied to his injury issues/decline. People that followed the NBA in the 00s (as you like to imply) know that his early decline (compared to Garnett, Dirk or Kobe) was caused by a meniscus injury. He basically played his entire career (post 2000) with no cartlage in his left knee. He lost mobility. Had to lose some weight/muscle mass. And had to go through Pop's load management routine (invented for that reason) to prolong his career.
Not sure why you bring up Hakeem. Haven't mentioned him at all and their careers basically didn't overlap. But if you want to hear my take. Duncan arrived in the NBA as a basketball savant. Hakeem was a way better athlet but his bball IQ needed some time to catch up. Took him almost a decade to figure out how to pass out of the post.

Have I mentioned Duncan's efficiency in any of my posts? No. I mentioned his defense and two-way impact. Duncan was one of the more resiliant playoff scorers but rarely reached the volume numbers of other superstar first options. In the few seasons where he did that he was running away with the MVP award.

I think his 02/03 season was the single best season of the 00s (maybe 09 LBJ). Probably one of the biggest carry jobs in my lifetime. Robinson was still on the roster but a shadow of his former self. Parker in his second year. Probably the second best player on the roster but not even close to his prime version. Ginobili in his rookie season. Not even a 6th man yet. Bowen and Jackson as wing defenders. By far the teams biggest strength.
Honestly think that Dirk in 2011 (another big underdog story) had a better supporting cast. Even adjusted for era that's not a championship caliber team. But Duncan made it happen. Beating the Kobe/Shaq Lakers and probably the best non championship Mavs team (Dirk's injury had a big impact on that series). Leading his team in all boxscore stats except for steals.

As far as all time rankings go. I don't have a list but I think Hakeem and Duncan belong in a different category than Kobe. They could lead a team as the first option on offense and also play DPOY level defense. Kobe was the highest volume iso scorer in the midrange iso scoring era. Score first with a relatively low assist rate (compared to players with similar volume). Not the engine of an offensive system like LBJ/Doncic/Jokic/Nash/Dirk/Curry. For me players that "are the system" have more value than KD or Kobe. Doesn't mean that I am taking all of them over Kobe because he had other qualities that contributed to his on court value but that is the reason why I don't have him in the same tier as Duncan/Hakeem and other players with legit top 5/10 all time cases. Probably in a tier below with other all time greats (including Nowitzki, Garnett, KD).

In general (not on a nerd board like this) it is really hard to argue against some of the narratives. Kobe is a larger than life figure. Just as an example. LBJ was viewed as a mediocre/bad clutch shooter based on ...? Kobe on the other brought the mamba mentality and clutch gene based on...?
Guess who is a better clutch player if we just look at the numbers? Guess how many players of the 00s and 10s have better clutch shooting numbers than Kobe? We remember the game winners. Not 15 misses in a row.

The audience doesn't matter. We cannot fix who you are. Just have to endure and hope that at some point the Jazz will be relevant enough to attract your attention again