11-09-2021, 03:06 PM
(11-09-2021, 02:57 PM)mavsluvr Wrote: Are you talking about losing every game, or accumulating a negative point differential over a season?
If we are talking about losing every game, sure. I would think they were either tanking, which involves intentionally performing badly, or just performing badly enough as a group to lose every game.
I was talking about being outscored in every game. I went to the ultra extreme example to find the place where you and Kam can agree. :-) If a team gets outscored in each and every game, then +/- does say something about performance.
(11-09-2021, 02:57 PM)mavsluvr Wrote: Also, performance, in its usual sense, takes account of expectations. A team that came up from last in the league to having a -1 total point differential over the season might be considered to have performed very well, and vice versa.
I completely agree with this. I had thought about performance based on expectations while sorting through this discussion, but hadn't brought it up.
(11-09-2021, 02:57 PM)mavsluvr Wrote: However, in either case I would not at all think that a losing record or a negative point differential meant that every player on the team played badly. It is pretty common for young bad teams to have outstanding young players, and no one dismisses them because of their team's season-long point differential or record.
Yes to this as well.
(11-09-2021, 02:57 PM)mavsluvr Wrote: Sports inherently involve an element of randomness, which means that the better team, or even the team that plays better that night, doesn't always win the game. It's part of what makes sports exciting. If we wanted to see a competition where randomness isn't a factor, we could watch a chess game.
Here I agree as long as the game of chess is played between two decent players
(11-09-2021, 02:57 PM)mavsluvr Wrote: I have never taken the position that +/- is a worthless statistical tool. In fact, I think it is a very valuable tool when it is used properly. I also think it can be misleading, and it is easy for a fan to think it proves more than it does. I think it can be related to performance, but doesn't tell you anything specific about performance, unless you simply define performance to mean having a good +/-.
Agree here too!
I could be completely wrong on this, but I think Kam would probably agree with all these points as well.