Building Around Cooper: A Backward-Looking Thought Experiment

[KillerLeft]

It feels like what it comes down to is we have different opinions of who Flagg is as a player going forward... If none of those guys on the list fit with him, because they don't provide the proper spacing, or the right kind of shot profile, what does that say about your view of Flagg's game?

It says what I’ve been saying clearly and frequently, and believe confidently: Flagg is ready to dominate now as an inside scorer, and providing him the space to do so with even more advantage plays into both his strengths and the team’s. 

The idea that he’s capable of adding to his offensive game over time is both obvious and irrelevant to the conversation. Just because he CAN run iso from above the break, and eventually possibly facilitate offense from there effectively doesn’t mean it’s the BEST way to approach using him, and I think it would be wise to lean into the ways in which he can be dominant early, you know…so the team can try to win. I don’t view that idea as a limiting of his potential at all. Quite the opposite, imo. Instead, I view the potentially limiting approach to be trying to force him into whatever is left over by all of the players already here. I think that is bass ackwards logic. 

He should absolutely be allowed to explore different parts of his game. No argument there, and what’s needed around him will probably evolve over time, but that has little to do with any role players here currently, because time is not something they have in as much abundance. If the goal is to be good soon, they need to be build a team that plays to his current strengths, imo.

[Scott41theMavs]

It says what I’ve been saying clearly and frequently, and believe confidently: Flagg is ready to dominate now as an inside scorer, and providing him the space to do so with even more advantage plays into both his strengths and the team’s. 

The idea that he’s capable of adding to his offensive game over time is both obvious and irrelevant to the conversation. Just because he CAN run iso from above the break, and eventually possibly facilitate offense from there effectively doesn’t mean it’s the BEST way to approach using him, and I think it would be wise to lean into the ways in which he can be dominant early, you know…so the team can try to win. I don’t view that idea as a limiting of his potential at all. Quite the opposite, imo. Instead, I view the potentially limiting approach to be trying to force him into whatever is left over by all of the players already here. I think that is bass ackwards logic. 

He should absolutely be allowed to explore different parts of his game. No argument there, and what’s needed around him will probably evolve over time, but that has little to do with any role players here currently, because time is not something they have in as much abundance. If the goal is to be good soon, they need to be build a team that plays to his current strengths, imo.

Of course, if Nico hadn't traded away our next four draft picks to build around Luka and then traded him away for peanuts, winning now could be almost completely irrelevant. Unfortunately, it's a thing.

[mvossman]

Did my new signature give me away?

Look, I think PJW is a role player. What makes guys role players and not Stars is that they're either inconsistent, limited on one end of the floor, a flaw of some sort in their game. Imperfect. Do I think there are better players than PJ, yes, of course. Do I think there's a player available via trade, making PJ money, that checks more boxes than him? No. Here is the entire list of Wing names that are within 120% of PJ money or less next season:

Miles Bridges
Kyle Kuzma
Patrick Williams
Keldon Johnson
Max Strus
Brandon Miller
Obi Toppin
Herb Jones
Jonathan Isaac
Grant Williams
Bobby Portis
Zaccharie Risacher
Dorian Finney-Smith
Deni Avdija

The bold are the only players that have both a higher 3PT percentage and attempts per game than PJW. So, all of the rest don't even check the better "spacing" box.

So, do you want to trade PJW for Brandon Miller or Max Strus? Are either or both better and more versatile than PJ defensively? Maybe. 

Miller isn't getting traded though. 

So, it comes down to do you want PJ Washington next year or Max Strus?

What is this list based on?  This can't be all wings making 24 mil or less.  The first guy that came to mind is Tari Eason.  Why is he not on the list?

[Smitty]

What is this list based on?  This can't be all wings making 24 mil or less.  The first guy that came to mind is Tari Eason.  Why is he not on the list?

I picked 120% of PJ's salary next year, which was $23.7M, because you have to have some kind of cutoff if we're talking about comparisons with money involved. I stopped on the minimum salary around the MLE number, which for me was ~$13M for comparison's sake.

[KillerLeft]

I picked 120% of PJ's salary next year, which was $23.7M, because you have to have some kind of cutoff if we're talking about comparisons with money involved. I stopped on the minimum salary around the MLE number, which for me was ~$13M for comparison's sake.

Where is it written that PJW must be traded for his own replacement? 

To me (again) Flagg is the guy who's replacing him and the entire reason to consider moving PJW while he still has some value. Plus, we don't even know who they'll draft yet. PLUS, we have no idea who's even going to be available. I think the net should be large enough to include way more possibilities, including other positions, a trade more focused on draft capital, etc. 

I know you don't agree with the premise, I'm just saying that for those of us who do, this idea that if nobody from your list is exciting (and I'm not even saying they're not - I only skimmed the list quickly) then our POV is invalid just seems silly. It reminds me of "if the glove don't fit, you must acquit." 

To my way of thinking, NOTHING matters until the team has identified a PRIMARY ball-handler, which I'm content to call a PG, regardless of what position others might want to label this player or that one. So for me, every potential move should be aimed at finding that guy, at least until they have him.

[cow]

To my way of thinking, NOTHING matters until the team has identified a PRIMARY ball-handler, which I'm content to call a PG, regardless of what position others might want to label this player or that one. So for me, every potential move should be aimed at finding that guy, at least until they have him.

Somewhere a single tear is running down Kyrie's cheek.

[mvossman]

I picked 120% of PJ's salary next year, which was $23.7M, because you have to have some kind of cutoff if we're talking about comparisons with money involved. I stopped on the minimum salary around the MLE number, which for me was ~$13M for comparison's sake.

So why isn't Dort in the list?  I am seeing a lot of guys I would put in a list like that. Many of them making less than your threshold.  I'm not sure a guy being way cheaper than PJ is a reason to keep off the list.

[KillerLeft]

Somewhere a single tear is running down Kyrie's cheek.

Do you think he's the answer? I'm honestly asking - open to opinions. I think he's got more basketball in his tank, but I struggle to see him suddenly trying the full time PG gig again and being successful to the level many are hoping and some are assuming. 

Obviously, if I'm wrong about that it would speed things up, but...even then, how long would it matter?

[Smitty]

So why isn't Dort in the list?  I am seeing a lot of guys I would put in a list like that. Many of them making less than your threshold.  I'm not sure a guy being way cheaper than PJ is a reason to keep off the list.

Because he wasn't listed as a SF/PF when sorted. I did overlook Cam Johnson though.

[Smitty]

Where is it written that PJW must be traded for his own replacement? 

The whole point of that post was to do what my signature said to do. I myself had not done the "homework" until then.

[cow]

Do you think he's the answer? I'm honestly asking - open to opinions. I think he's got more basketball in his tank, but I struggle to see him suddenly trying the full time PG gig again and being successful to the level many are hoping and some are assuming. 

Obviously, if I'm wrong about that it would speed things up, but...even then, how long would it matter?

I think he can easily run the show and something he did better than Luka was "forcing" the ball into his teammates hands either bringing the ball up the court or in sets which instills confidence in them.  He knows that benefits him and the team in the long run and knows when to picks his spots to get his own.  And while I think you should never draft out of need (nor to avoid "redundancy"), Kyrie being on the team makes me even more comfortable at drafting BPA. Further, if he were healthy now, I think he could have easily flipped 50% of our many, many clutch loses this season and The Landlord, PJW, and the likes would look much more attractive.

[KillerLeft]

I think he can easily run the show and something he did better than Luka was "forcing" the ball into his teammates hands either bringing the ball up the court or in sets which instills confidence in them.  He knows that benefits him and the team in the long run and knows when to picks his spots to get his own.  And while I think you should never draft out of need (nor to avoid "redundancy"), Kyrie being on the team makes me even more comfortable at drafting BPA.

All good points. 

I think you might be underthinking the physical tolls involved with playing that role in a more full time capacity than he did with Luka, but I could be wrong - he might be up to it.

[KillerLeft]

The whole point of that post was to do what my signature said to do. I myself had not done the "homework" until then.

Fair enough - I just don't even view the premise of the debate the same as you. 

For me the whole point is (still, leftover from the summer) that they have too much talent in some areas and not nearly enough in others, so finding a "more PJW than PJW" is the last hurdle I'd consider having to clear.

[cow]

All good points. 

I think you might be underthinking the physical tolls involved with playing that roll in a more full time capacity than he did with Luka, but I could be wrong - he might be up to it.

Give Kyrie more rest and Naji more burn with the second unit.  Problem solved.  I was mostly messing with you with my original comment.  

I need to update my tag to Naji Marshall Fan Club President.

[KillerLeft]

Give Kyrie more rest and Naji more burn with the second unit. 

This is...actually not a bad thought, especially since Marshall survived the trade deadline. If Flagg/Kyrie develop some good chemistry and the bulk of Marshall's time happens while Flagg rests (Kyrie can either be resting or off-ball), there could be something to this.

Unlike PJW, I feel like Marshall's salary still makes sense as a high-minute bench player, for now. If I knew he was to stay at that contractual level and that a plan like the above would work, I'd be more inclined to keep him around for a while because I do love him!

[cow]

This is...actually not a bad thought, especially since Marshall survived the trade deadline. If Flagg/Kyrie develop some good chemistry and the bulk of Marshall's time happens while Flagg rests (Kyrie can either be resting or off-ball), there could be something to this.

The moment we extend Marshall is the moment I order a #13 jersey.

[KillerLeft]

The moment we extend Marshall is the moment I order a #13 jersey.

Well, you're one step closer to deserving it - title updated!

[cow]

Well, you're one step closer to deserving it - title updated!

Thanks.  I'd have done it already but we traded God King shortly after I hung is jersey in my closet.

[Smitty]

Fair enough - I just don't even view the premise of the debate the same as you. 

For me the whole point is (still, leftover from the summer) that they have too much talent in some areas and not nearly enough in others, so finding a "more PJW than PJW" is the last hurdle I'd consider having to clear.

I don't view it as a debate really. We're talking about different things.. You're talking about the "idea" of a player or players that fit with Flagg. I'm trying to find the 'actual' player that could be available. So far, I haven't found that player. Unless of course we get into the All-Star level guys and not just role players.

[KillerLeft]

I don't view it as a debate really. We're talking about different things.. You're talking about the "idea" of a player or players that fit with Flagg. I'm trying to find the 'actual' player that could be available. So far, I haven't found that player. Unless of course we get into the All-Star level guys and not just role players.

But the problem is that you're entering into it with the idea that it has to be a forward, kind of (at least that's what I'm getting from your sig). For me, that's the very last place I'd start. 

The "list" should include PG's, wings and even centers. Or, dumps into TPE's that net draft picks. 

I want the "actual" player (if that's what it must be to satisfy your requirement) to be pretty significantly different than PJW in several ways, and frankly, I think it would be pretty easy to accomplish, especially because I don't think PJW, himself, has to be the means of acquiring said player. He's just a way suddenly available to improve the team in one of several ways.