Building Around Cooper: A Backward-Looking Thought Experiment

[KillerLeft]

This is why I mentioned Kyrie as the new "front line" of disagreement the other day.

There are people who seem to be assuming he's "the difference" without even realizing they think that.

I'm skeptical. I don't think he has EVER been the catalyst of a great offense. I think his best role is what he did here next to Luka and what he did next to LeBron: Off-ball scorer and secondary creator. He's 34, coming off of significant injury...do we really think he can play full time PG on a contender with a 19-20 year old sidekick learning on the job? I don't, sorry. I don't mean that to be a criticism of Kyrie, who I was not in favor of bringing here, but has been a great Maverick during his time here. I was wrong then, and maybe I'll be wrong now.

[vfromlmf]

Piling on, I don’t think it’s surprising the Mavs made their run back into the game last night while playing Naji, Flagg, Christie, PJW and Gafford.

That’s their best four “wings” (or should I call them Forwards? Or maybe Guard/Forwards) anyway that’s their best four basketball players plus their best healthy center.

That lineup defended ok, rebounded Suns’ missed 3s, and got out in transition.

More of that, please. Maybe mix in a couple of playable guards and a lotto pick and you might see things look a lot better next year. Still lots of work to do but exciting and watchable.

Not ready to talk about contending though. I need to see how this thing develops over the next couple of seasons.

[mvossman]

A player to consider - Collin Gillespie, PG, PHX
Has much of the traits the Mavs need, except he isn't big
Will be UFA this summer, coming off a low salary, uncertain how much he will command
Mavs can obviously offer MLE (15.1M) but also have avenues to offer more if PHX is not committed to paying him (via SNT)

Is he gettable?

Somebody to definitely target.  No idea if he is gettable.  Some other guys I would like to target (all on Smitty list):

Eason
Nembhard
Moody
Black

Not sure any of these guys are gettable, but its the kind of player I would like to target.

[vfromlmf]

Eason was a steal at 17. That’s the kind of player I’d love to find if the Mavs find a way into the middle of the draft.

[Smitty]

I don't disagree on any particular point, really. 

I just think (with respect) you might still be in a touch of denial about how LONG it's going to take to fix all of that. Now, they truly have a 19 year old best player - the AD trade made it triple official. I just think we were all in the bargaining phase of mourning when we convinced ourselves rookie Flagg could be dropped into an already assembled team and they could compete, healthy or not. I think the reality is that when your best player changes, your team starts over, at least in some key ways. 

PJW, Gafford, Thompson, Marshall, Kyrie...none of them are "too old" to be good right now, today, but I think they might ALL be too old to be part of the NEXT great Mavs team. There are reasons to keep good, key vets around, sure - no argument with that, whatsoever. But, the key vets I'd be in favor of keeping around would at least be able to form synergistic lineups with Flagg to close games. Otherwise, they'd all just be Dwight Powell types, right? The rest, once you're thinking like I'm thinking (not that you have to, I'm just saying "if") really need to be turned into more helpful tools (younger players, draft capital, whatever) at the HIGHEST possible point in their value. 

Since I don't think PJW, Marshall or possibly even Gafford fit here like they used to, my strong instinct is that they're going to lose value, and pretty quickly. 

I think, personally, the smart thing is to find a way to completely remake the team around Flagg. I think there might be shortcuts available, but for me the AD trade signals the end of hope for the kind of EXTREME shortcut we were hoping to see. I doubt the Mavs win a championship with any of those guys on the roster - straight up. I could be wrong, obviously, but I've reached the conclusion that trying to remake a team built around Luka with as little turnover as some are hoping might be a little like trying to turn the Titanic away from the iceberg at top speed.

So many, me included have said the same things over and over. I’ve provided a full list of names that are available this summer. Who on that list, or who via trade is the ideal fit? Theory is great but give some real alternatives? I think we’ve lost some sense of reality here. If a 3&D Wing like PJ is not a fit with Flagg, who is?! Do you and others think we should give up less D and add more 3 in that Wing spot? Do we just continue to disregard the lack of any legit NBA level Guard on this team and use lineup data to form our opinions on fit for future years? Do we assume that this is what Flagg is and will always be and there’s no need for projection when it comes to his own role within the team? I think the empty space of a lost season has caused us to talk about the future more, but with no real ideas or replacement level names it means little to nothing?

[KillerLeft]

I think we’ve lost some sense of reality here. If a 3&D Wing like PJ is not a fit with Flagg, who is?! 

Well for starters, that isn't a remotely accurate descriptor of PJW, imo. Like, I'd NEVER describe him like that. 

No 3. 
Not the kind of D they need at the moment.
Not a wing (I already mentioned we see that position differently. Being me, I of course think I'm right). 

I think FLAGG is PJW's "replacement." I have a really difficult time seeing it play out any other way, in fact. I think acquiring someone I actually considered to be a 3&D wing would be AMAZING, actually. This is why I was so enamored with Risacher's potential fit here. A more PERIMETER oriented forward who can mistaken for a guard if you squint. Quick, eager trigger off the the catch. Handles. Passing ability. PERIMETER, on ball defense (which we claim PJW has, but doesn't - he's at his best guarding forwards, just like Flagg). Anyone like that would be better in my mind, even if there was a semi-risky bet on potential involved. I'd be more than willing to take that risk, because AGAIN, I'm not sure the team will be good again while PJW is in his prime, anyway. So, is it really even a risk?

[Smitty]

Well for starters, that isn't a remotely accurate descriptor of PJW, imo. Like, I'd NEVER describe him like that. 

No 3. 
Not the kind of D they need at the moment.
Not a wing (I already mentioned we see that position differently. Being me, I of course think I'm right). 

I think FLAGG is PJW's "replacement." I have a really difficult time seeing it play out any other way, in fact. I think acquiring someone I actually considered to be a 3&D wing would be AMAZING, actually. This is why I was so enamored with Risacher's potential fit here. A more PERIMETER oriented forward who can mistaken for a guard if you squint. Quick, eager trigger off the the catch. Handles. Passing ability. PERIMETER, on ball defense (which we claim PJW has, but doesn't - he's at his best guarding forwards, just like Flagg). Anyone like that would be better in my mind, even if there was a semi-risky bet on potential involved. I'd be more than willing to take that risk, because AGAIN, I'm not sure the team will be good again while PJW is in his prime, anyway. So, is it really even a risk?

Risacher is not available, even in an AD trade. Plus his 3PT shooting is the same as PJ’s on less attempts per game. Who is another guy?

[KillerLeft]

Now...tell me you're from the future and you can definitively promise that PJW can hang for 15-20 minutes AT THE 5 (I don't think he can)...that would change the equation for me SIGNIFICANTLY.

THAT would cause all sorts of interesting mismatches that could and should go in your favor...on OFFENSE and in TRANSITION.

But as a forward pairing with Flagg? Sorry, I hate it.

[KillerLeft]

Risacher is not available, even in an AD trade. Plus his 3PT shooing is the same as PJ’s on less attempts per game. Who is another guy?

I don't waste my time pining after specific guys until they've been reported to be shopped or available. I know some find that fun, and more power to them. What I enjoy is imagining how styles/systems fit together. I'd be looking for a TYPE of player. 

I believe I've made that type clear. 

I don't see the same PJW you do (though I really like him). I think he was a breath of fresh air when this team needed toughness and physicality, but with Flagg as the cornerstone, I simply don't see those as potential needs for the next decade. Instead, it's everything PJW CAN'T bring that I want.

[Smitty]

I don't waste my time pining after specific guys until they've been reported to be shopped or available.

We have nothing but time.

[KillerLeft]

We have nothing but time.

True, but fun is fun, and homework is homework. To each their own on that score. 

I used to really like things like finding salary matches, making fake trades, etc. But I long ago learned that we have NO IDEA who's available and who isn't, and we never will. When specifics are discussed, I'll chime in, but I learned a while ago not to get myself excited over unlikely hypotheticals, especially my own. Even ones that seem semi-likely for a while (like Risacher) ultimately disappoint. 

If your overall point is that there's no way the Mavs could possibly do "better" than PJW, I could be persuaded of that - he's a good player, and he's already likely not going to command what I think he's worth (and what the Mavs paid to get him) in trade, after just one season of watching him in an ill-fitting situation. I highly doubt they'll "win" any trade involving him. But, if they hold onto him, what I think is that they'll not be a good team, even if that's the "right" thing to do. 

Might've just caught me on a bad day, but I'd characterize my current mindset as "facing it."

[KillerLeft]

Ironically, I think the last specific trade target I suggested beforehand was PJW, lol. Even then it was rare for me to offer up ideas like that.

EDIT: Nevermind, I think I might've supported the idea of adding Coby White over the summer (still think they should've, tbh). I'm sure that was suggested by someone else first, though.

[Mavs2021]

Well for starters, that isn't a remotely accurate descriptor of PJW, imo. Like, I'd NEVER describe him like that. 

No 3. 
Not the kind of D they need at the moment.
Not a wing (I already mentioned we see that position differently. Being me, I of course think I'm right). 

I think FLAGG is PJW's "replacement." I have a really difficult time seeing it play out any other way, in fact. I think acquiring someone I actually considered to be a 3&D wing would be AMAZING, actually. This is why I was so enamored with Risacher's potential fit here. A more PERIMETER oriented forward who can mistaken for a guard if you squint. Quick, eager trigger off the the catch. Handles. Passing ability. PERIMETER, on ball defense (which we claim PJW has, but doesn't - he's at his best guarding forwards, just like Flagg). Anyone like that would be better in my mind, even if there was a semi-risky bet on potential involved. I'd be more than willing to take that risk, because AGAIN, I'm not sure the team will be good again while PJW is in his prime, anyway. So, is it really even a risk?

Well Hawks fans think Risacher can neither dribble nor pass and his 1.3 APG on a near 1/1 AST/TO ratio seem to confirm their views.

[KillerLeft]

Well Hawks fans think Risacher can neither dribble nor pass and his 1.3 APG on a near 1/1 AST/TO ratio seem to confirm their views.

I wish their front office agreed. I think he'd have fit here like a glove. Oh, well.

[vfromlmf]

Risacher is not available, even in an AD trade. Plus his 3PT shooting is the same as PJ’s on less attempts per game. Who is another guy?

"Hello?"

"Waaah waah wah?"

"Yes, this is Mavs HQ."

"Wah waaaah wah wah Waaaaaah waaah waah wah"

"Why yes, as a matter of fact we are looking for a wing who can ... wait, is this Jeremy Sochan calling?"

[myconsumerclub]

THE THREE M's
Mikel https://www.tankathon.com/players/mikel-brown-jr
Montiejus https://www.tankathon.com/players/motiejus-krivas
Milan https://www.tankathon.com/players/milan-momcilovic

[FireNicoHarrison]

Risacher is a bust.

[Smitty]

If your overall point is that there's no way the Mavs could possibly do "better" than PJW, I could be persuaded of that - he's a good player

Did my new signature give me away?

Look, I think PJW is a role player. What makes guys role players and not Stars is that they're either inconsistent, limited on one end of the floor, a flaw of some sort in their game. Imperfect. Do I think there are better players than PJ, yes, of course. Do I think there's a player available via trade, making PJ money, that checks more boxes than him? No. Here is the entire list of Wing names that are within 120% of PJ money or less next season:

Miles Bridges
Kyle Kuzma
Patrick Williams
Keldon Johnson
Max Strus
Brandon Miller
Obi Toppin
Herb Jones
Jonathan Isaac
Grant Williams
Bobby Portis
Zaccharie Risacher
Dorian Finney-Smith
Deni Avdija

The bold are the only players that have both a higher 3PT percentage and attempts per game than PJW. So, all of the rest don't even check the better "spacing" box.

So, do you want to trade PJW for Brandon Miller or Max Strus? Are either or both better and more versatile than PJ defensively? Maybe. 

Miller isn't getting traded though. 

So, it comes down to do you want PJ Washington next year or Max Strus?

[KillerLeft]

Did my new signature give me away?

Look, I think PJW is a role player. What makes guys role players and not Stars is that they're either inconsistent, limited on one end of the floor, a flaw of some sort in their game. Imperfect. Do I think there are better players than PJ, yes, of course. Do I think there's a player available via trade, making PJ money, that checks more boxes than him? No. Here is the entire list of Wing names that are within 120% of PJ money or less next season:

Miles Bridges
Kyle Kuzma
Patrick Williams
Keldon Johnson
Max Strus
Brandon Miller
Obi Toppin
Herb Jones
Jonathan Isaac
Grant Williams
Bobby Portis
Zaccharie Risacher
Dorian Finney-Smith
Deni Avdija

The bold are the only players that have both a higher 3PT percentage and attempts per game than PJW. So, all of the rest don't even check the better "spacing" box.

So, do you want to trade PJW for Brandon Miller or Max Strus? Are either or both better and more versatile than PJ defensively? Maybe. 

Miller isn't getting traded though. 

So, it comes down to do you want PJ Washington next year or Max Strus?

What I'm saying is that I think even just playing Klay Thompson at the 3 more next to Flagg is likely to "work" better. 

You're stuck on "what instead" and I'm not there yet because it's not interesting to me. No matter how many times you bring that up, it's not going to convince me that PJW fits with Flagg, because I (unfortunately) feel very strongly that he does not. 

Also, anyone who has watched PJW play should know that percentages don't play into it. What's needed at that other forward spot is someone who's HOPING to shoot a catch and shoot 3, not viewing that as a last resort.

[Smitty]

It feels like what it comes down to is we have different opinions of who Flagg is as a player going forward... If none of those guys on the list fit with him, because they don't provide the proper spacing, or the right kind of shot profile, what does that say about your view of Flagg's game?