MAVS NEWS:

[mvossman]

I don't know the answer so curious where would you rank the defense of the new guys:  Klay, Grimes and Marshall.  I think both Klay and Grimes look the part.  It seems like Grimes has some lapses off ball.    I have no idea about Marshall's defense to be honest.

would you rank them average, above average or below average so far?

I would rank Klay average (which is higher than expected) and the other two above average.  I would like to get a longer look at Naji at backup 4 and see how viable an option that is.

[Chicagojk]

I would rank Klay average (which is higher than expected) and the other two above average.  I would like to get a longer look at Naji at backup 4 and see how viable an option that is.

Me too.  I think this is where it is going to land up, outside of any trades/injuries.  The rotation is tough to make sense with minutes (when healthy) without it.   I didn't like Marshall at the 4 earlier in the year but it was a short run and it was during a bad early stretch.    He is one of our 8 best players.  I think grimes is also.  So, I think Marshall will eventually get backup 4 minutes.

I really think this was a trial run for Kleber.  In the end, I expect him to be in a wild card position depending on matchups.  If he gets hot, he gets more minutes.  If Gafford struggles, he gets some time at the 5.  ETC.

I could be wrong, but if I was betting that is what I would bet and what I would want to see.

[KillerLeft]

Me too.  I think this is where it is going to land up, outside of any trades/injuries.  The rotation is tough to make sense with minutes (when healthy) without it.   I didn't like Marshall at the 4 earlier in the year but it was a short run and it was during a bad early stretch.    He is one of our 8 best players.  I think grimes is also.  So, I think Marshall will eventually get backup 4 minutes.

I really think this was a trial run for Kleber.  In the end, I expect him to be in a wild card position depending on matchups.  If he gets hot, he gets more minutes.  If Gafford struggles, he gets some time at the 5.  ETC.

I could be wrong, but if I was betting that is what I would bet and what I would want to see.

This is totally the way I see it, and I'll go a step farther and state that Kleber this season, at the 4, has been more bad than good. If he's got another stretch of the old Kleber in him (he might not, but I'm not ready to proclaim that yet), I think it will be at the 5, where all of his best moments over the past 3-4 years have happened. His reflexes, foot speed, change of direction, etc, could still be assets at the 5 in short stints, but he seems badly outmatched by NBA forwards and wings to me lately. I realize that his rim protection has slipped, but there will be matchups in which that isn't the primary concern. I would much rather have seen him guarding Sengun last night than Gafford, for example. Guys who can shoot, like Turner and Horford, come to mind also. 

Setting aside the Kleber at 5 part of it, if Marshall and/or Luka can't hold up defensively as the biggest forward on the floor (I believe they can) then PJ Washington might be the team's most valuable player, which isn't an ideal place to be. O-Max's recent progression has been encouraging, but I don't think he's going to be in the top 8-9 by season's end.

[sefant]

I don't know the answer so curious where would you rank the defense of the new guys:  Klay, Grimes and Marshall.  I think both Klay and Grimes look the part.  It seems like Grimes has some lapses off ball.    I have no idea about Marshall's defense to be honest.

would you rank them average, above average or below average so far?

D-EPM

Lively +1.8 (27)
PJ +1.6 (35)
Grimes +1.1 (63)
Luka +0.8 (84)
Naji +0.8 (85)
Maxi +0.3 (138)
Klay +0.0 (176)
OMax +0.0 (180)
Hardy +0.0 (182)
SD -0.0 (184)
Gortman -0.3 (229)
Kyrie -0.8 (309)
Powell -0.9 (316)
Gafford -1.7 (395)

that is season EPM

[SleepingHero]

Christian Clark
@cclark_13
P.J. Washington, who left last night's game in Houston with a right knee sprain, is questionable tomorrow against Cleveland.

[KillerLeft]

D-EPM

Lively +1.8 (27)
PJ +1.6 (35)
Grimes +1.1 (63)
Luka +0.8 (84)
Naji +0.8 (85)
Maxi +0.3 (138)
Klay +0.0 (176)
OMax +0.0 (180)
Hardy +0.0 (182)
SD -0.0 (184)
Gortman -0.3 (229)
Kyrie -0.8 (309)
Powell -0.9 (316)
Gafford -1.7 (395)

that is season EPM

That checks out with my eye test, for the most part. Pretty interesting.

[SkenfromLMF]

PJ Washington might be the team's most valuable player, which isn't an ideal place to be...

This is exactly where we are. The difference between the victory over Memphis and the loss vs OKC the week or two heading into Christmas was PJ Washington taking away Ja in the close of the game and not being available to guard SGA vs OKC. I felt the same way in the Houston game. The 4th quarter has evolved into Kyrie's offense + PJ's defense = 60% winning rate. Miss either of those two elements and the Mavs are cooked against a .500 or better team.

[Mavs2021]

Nurkic really screwed us. Cost us the Portland and Sacramento games. D*ckhead. Suns don´t even have their own pick, so can shamelessly cheer for them to miss the play-in.

[mvossman]

That checks out with my eye test, for the most part. Pretty interesting.

Yep, its far from perfect, but DEPM is the best all around defensive stat I have found.

[F Gump]

There may be an explanation (besides the injury to Luka, suspensions, etc) on why the Mavs' play sucks so bad recently, after they had looked so good previously:

Quentin Grimes detailed the illness that has been passed around the Mavs locker room:

“I couldn’t even get out of bed, it ran through the whole team. I think J-Kidd and them got it…We haven’t been practicing as much because you don’t want to pass that around…I ain’t ever seen nothing like it, even in high school, college, everybody getting sick…”

Grimes said for him it was a stomach bug, and he “couldn’t hold anything down” and “couldn’t move” while also having “cold sweats.”

This illness being passed around the Mavs locker room is no joke.

[Chicagojk]

https://x.com/LukaUpdates/status/1875882934353432978

[ThisIStheYear]

I don't know the answer so curious where would you rank the defense of the new guys:  Klay, Grimes and Marshall.  I think both Klay and Grimes look the part.  It seems like Grimes has some lapses off ball.    I have no idea about Marshall's defense to be honest.

would you rank them average, above average or below average so far?

DLEBRON says Klay and Naji have been below average to bad while Grimes has had a positive defensive impact. The Mavs need a wing defender. The problem isn’t so much acquiring one but that you basically then need to consign Klay into a low minute bench player. Signing Klay and becoming hostage to his reputation has turned into a trap.

[Chicagojk]

DLEBRON says Klay and Naji have been below average to bad while Grimes has had a positive defensive impact. The Mavs need a wing defender. The problem isn’t so much acquiring one but that you basically then need to consign Klay into a low minute bench player. Signing Klay and becoming hostage to his reputation has turned into a trap.

The perimeter defender could be an issue.   That is why I may be interested in a small trade to get a good defender, even if he may be outside the main rotation.  I keep coming back to Thybulle.   Finding a trade to work is difficult.

I think, when healthy, Mavs have a real good finishing 8 minute team.    It may be slightly behind OKC and Boston, but it should be real good.   A couple things are needed though:

1) Get Luka right.  I don't think his body has been right since last year.   He has played well in stretches this year, but I think it is mostly with Grit, IQ and skill.   If Mavs are going to go on a late run, they need healthy, in shape Luka.  Without it, it doesn't matter what else is done.  

2) Lively needs to make a jump.  I had hopes he could be our third best player this year.   He has had some fabulous games.   He has also been injured and has had some very pedestrian games.   I don't know if he will be our third best player this year, but can he make a little jump sometime in the year.  If so, things fit really well together.

3) Can they find the right rotation with Klay, Marshall and Grimes and keep everyone happy.   I want to see a good 20 game run when everyone is healthy with Klay.   I want to see how he fits in.  I imagine he will close some games and some games he won't.  Will that cause any issues?

[mvossman]

DLEBRON says Klay and Naji have been below average to bad while Grimes has had a positive defensive impact. The Mavs need a wing defender. The problem isn’t so much acquiring one but that you basically then need to consign Klay into a low minute bench player. Signing Klay and becoming hostage to his reputation has turned into a trap.

Never been a fan of LEBRON and if DLEBRON says Naji is a below average defender then I am less impressed.  

Not sure I get the Klay hate.  He has been what you would hope he would be.  He doesn't kill you on defense, makes high BBIQ decisions and shoots at a very high level.  The starting lineup including Luka/Kyrie/Klay was never going to be a top 5 defense, but the idea was that Klay could take the offense to another level against teams like Boston, and in the rare cases where all three were healthy, he has.  Of all the team's problems recently, I would put Klay way down on that list.

[HoosierDaddyKid]

Never been a fan of LEBRON and if DLEBRON says Naji is a below average defender then I am less impressed.  

Not sure I get the Klay hate.  He has been what you would hope he would be.  He doesn't kill you on defense, makes high BBIQ decisions and shoots at a very high level.  The starting lineup including Luka/Kyrie/Klay was never going to be a top 5 defense, but the idea was that Klay could take the offense to another level against teams like Boston, and in the rare cases where all three were healthy, he has.  Of all the team's problems recently, I would put Klay way down on that list.

Klay has had his moments, but they've been few and far between. It's why GS let him walk. The Butler situation is very similar. Aging star that wants an extension, that the team is unwilling to give him.

[KillerLeft]

Klay has had his moments, but they've been few and far between. It's why GS let him walk. The Butler situation is very similar. Aging star that wants an extension, that the team is unwilling to give him.

The Butler situation couldn't be farther from the Thompson situation. Night and day. Butler is wanting a multi-year extension at MAX money. Even if he doesn't get one, he has a player option for next season at $52 million. The motivation behind Butler's unrest puts his situation in a totally different stratosphere than Thompson's. He chose the Mavs because he wanted to play here and signed for the freaking MLE. 

You (and a couple of others) keep pointing to the fact that Thompson is past his prime as some sort of "told you so" smoking gun, but the reality is that no one, not one single person, thought otherwise over the summer. No one from this board thought they were getting a player in his prime. No one from the national media thought that. No one in the Mavericks organization thought that. Klay, himself, knew better, even, which is why he signed right away for the MLE. 

I think people's expectations of his time here will be properly calibrated when they start thinking of him as an MLE player, which is what he is. In my opinion, it has already been one of the better uses of the MLE the Mavs have found during my fandom, and it really seems likely to look even better by season's end. I have zero complaints with Thompson, the signing, and I haven't felt at all like Kidd is playing him too much to stroke his ego. He actually seems pretty far down on the pecking order in terms of closing games, sitting in favor of Grimes, Marshall and even Dinwiddie at times down the stretch.

[F Gump]

The perimeter defender could be an issue.   That is why I may be interested in a small trade to get a good defender, even if he may be outside the main rotation.  I keep coming back to Thybulle.   Finding a trade to work is difficult.

You don't want Thybulle anyhow. He's only desirable when you don't see him play on a regular basis. He would be unplayable in the playoffs because of his utter lack of offense, and sitting on the bench negates any value as a defender.

The defender they should pursue imo is DJJ, who offers more on offense than Thybulle and had a good fit in Mavs scheme, but even he may not be close enough to a 2-way solution.

[KillerLeft]

You don't want Thybulle anyhow. He's only desirable when you don't see him play on a regular basis. He would be unplayable in the playoffs because of his utter lack of offense, and sitting on the bench negates any value as a defender.

The defender they should pursue imo is DJJ, who offers more on offense than Thybulle and had a good fit in Mavs scheme, but even he may not be close enough to a 2-way solution.

Thank you for the Thybulle take! I have felt like I'm taking crazy pills every time his name comes up. I have no idea why everyone here loves him so much.

[SleepingHero]

Thank you for the Thybulle take! I have felt like I'm taking crazy pills every time his name comes up. I have no idea why everyone here loves him so much.

Because Thybulle still is one of the best lockdown defenders this league has to offer. I think his fit on this Mavs team now is a but murkier than what it was 2 summers ago, but he'd still instantly become our best defender on this squad and that is a valuable trait. 

His offensive game is certainly questionable, although I still think he's underrated. He is highly athletic like DJJ, knows how to cut, and was hovering around 40% on 3s last season on POR until mid January so there is some evidence that he can become at least an average 3pt shooter. 

If Portland had a single vet PF that made sense, I'd be drumming up several hypothetical deals to get Thybulle on the Mavs along with said vet PF. Alas, I don't think it's meant to be as of now.

[KillerLeft]

Because Thybulle still is one of the best lockdown defenders this league has to offer. I think his fit on this Mavs team now is a but murkier than what it was 2 summers ago, but he'd still instantly become our best defender on this squad and that is a valuable trait. 

His offensive game is certainly questionable, although I still think he's underrated. He is highly athletic like DJJ, knows how to cut, and was hovering around 40% on 3s last season on POR until mid January so there is some evidence that he can become at least an average 3pt shooter. 

If Portland had a single vet PF that made sense, I'd be drumming up several hypothetical deals to get Thybulle on the Mavs along with said vet PF. Alas, I don't think it's meant to be as of now.