Trade & FA 2024-25:

[DL2RimRocker]

If Nico can find a way to make Gafford happy being a 12 min backup and convince him to sign at a discount when Gaff is at his prime age of 28, I will be all in and will worship Nico for the rest of my life.

The only way I see Gafford resigning,  is if Kidd can find a way to play Lively and Gaff together for several minutes. I honestly think Lively has it in him to develop into a decent offensive weapon and his athleticism and length should allow him to be able to defend many PFs in the league.
One of the highlights of Lively's scouting reports before the draft was his unique ability to switch out on smaller players. I think Kidd should experiment a little with that if Lively develops some offensive skills.

[Ghost of Podkolzin]

If Nico can find a way to make Gafford happy being a 12 min backup and convince him to sign at a discount when Gaff is at his prime age of 28, I will be all in and will worship Nico for the rest of my life.

The only way I see Gafford resigning,  is if Kidd can find a way to play Lively and Gaff together for several minutes. I honestly think Lively has it in him to develop into a decent offensive weapon and his athleticism and length should allow him to be able to defend many PFs in the league.
One of the highlights of Lively's scouting reports before the draft was his unique ability to switch out on smaller players. I think Kidd should experiment a little with that if Lively develops some offensive skills.

I hear you, but there are a lot more minutes than 12 for Gafford.  Try to look at it as total minutes available to a position (82 games x 48 minutes = 3,936 minutes).  Lively only played 1,293 minutes last year (55 games, 23.5 minutes), Gafford 1,816 (71 games, 24.5 minutes).  

If both Lively and Gafford play the same number of games at 28mins, the total minutes is 3,612, over 300 minutes left over.

[Ghost of Podkolzin]

We do realize this discussion is about depth and skill at a position that almost no other team has. Combined with a back court unique in their ability to positively leverage those skills, I suggest this is an anomaly in today's NBA that most opposing teams are not prepared to deal with.

This feels especially good for DAL since we have spend years wandering the center position wasteland looking for a solution.

I just want to enjoy the advantage for as long as we can.

This!  This is what I've been trying to say, just not as well as michaeltex put it.

[michaeltex]

Best case would be for Nico to sell Gaff and DLive on being 2 halves of a whole. If he can continue improving, there is no reason Gaff should be relegated to a couple of 6 minute runs per game. Plus, there may be some games where he is more effective because of matchup, scheduling, moon phase, etc. than DLive.

IMO, the best year for DAL was in 2010-2011 when we had Chandler and Haywood. There were plenty of examples where Hay saved the game because of Ty's effectiveness, foul trouble, injury, etc. The current team feels like that, but maybe with a steroid boost.

[F Gump]

If Nico can find a way to make Gafford happy being a 12 min backup and convince him to sign at a discount when Gaff is at his prime age of 28, I will be all in and will worship Nico for the rest of my life.

Yeah, I don't think that will have to even be a discussion, because I think those limits are a fantasy. There will be 2 spots that are closer to 1a and 1b, rather than only space for one center plus a few leftover scraps. That's how it works in today's NBA.

There are about 4000 minutes for center in an NBA season, and I think DL is probably a 2000/yr guy or so, like Tyson Chandler was. That leaves a significant chunk for another center. For reference, last season (most of which DL was the ONLY center), he played less than 1300, and only Doncic (2624) played more than the 2000 area.

[mvossman]

Nothing would make me happier. Still have to have a rim-running center in the game every second that Luka plays.

This is simply not true. Post KP trade our only playable centers for the rest of season and playoffs were Powell and Maxi.  The team went on a tear with the offense primarily operating in 5 out. 

More recently Lively missed several weeks late this last season. Gafford started but more often than not Maxi finished and the team again was very effective in 5 out. 

The reality is Luka needs space, whether it’s 5 out or 4 out with “vertical” spacing does not matter.

[mvossman]

Yeah, I don't think that will have to even be a discussion, because I think those limits are a fantasy. There will be 2 spots that are closer to 1a and 1b, rather than only space for one center plus a few leftover scraps. That's how it works in today's NBA.

There are about 4000 minutes for center in an NBA season, and I think DL is probably a 2000/yr guy or so, like Tyson Chandler was. That leaves a significant chunk for another center. For reference, last season (most of which DL was the ONLY center), he played less than 1300, and only Doncic (2624) played more than the 2000 area.

If Lively misses another 30+ games then they may be close in total minutes, but they will not be 1a and 1b.  When it really counts (like in the playoffs) I would expect Lively well into the 30s and Gafford in the 12-15 range, especially in two years which is the time frame being discussed.  

As far as how it works in today's NBA, teams don't spend MLE money on backup pure centers.  It makes total sense for Mavs right now given Lively was a rookie but its going to make less sense in a year or two when Lively is clearly the starting center and Gafford could be looking at a 15+ million contract in free agency as a starting center.

[RGP1981]

This is simply not true. Post KP trade our only playable centers for the rest of season and playoffs were Powell and Maxi.  The team went on a tear with the offense primarily operating in 5 out. 

More recently Lively missed several weeks late this last season. Gafford started but more often than not Maxi finished and the team again was very effective in 5 out. 

The reality is Luka needs space, whether it’s 5 out or 4 out with “vertical” spacing does not matter.

That's true but ONLY if you look at this from a purely offensive point of view... what about defense? Especially when you consider Luka's flaws on defense.

Let's build your point out further also. Does Luka really need space, or does he need someone who can help create space for him by being a viable option that he can dish the ball to when he's being doubled? What if he had someone like Hakeem, who was not a threat from three but could do his own thing from elsewhere without help?

Also, why are you only asking about "post-KP"? KP is the 2nd best 5-out Center in the league after Wemby, isn't he? Has KP's game really changed that much compared to when he was at the Mavs... or does he just look better when he's playing next to 4 quality defenders, which the Mavs can never replicate with Luka and Kyrie as starters? 

More importantly, even if there were better 5-out Centers out there, the Mavs fecked up the first 5 years of Luka's time here by being so very bad strategically with trades and in the draft... therefore, your trade-cupboard is bare... and now, the new CBA is also there to consider... so they won't be able to trade for them and need to look at the next best cheapest option, which is a rim-protecting Center who can also help defend the perimeter... and who can do it for 48 minutes (so that Dwight the Blight doesn't see the court).

In posting this, I just realized something else... I've become a huge Caitlin Clark fan over this off-season. I really, really hope the Indiana Fever's Front Office doesn't become the next Cavs or Mavs and waste Caitlin's first 5-7 years in the league by doing as many stupid things. AFAIC, the Cavs and Mavs are the poster-childs for how to waste away the first years of a generational talent. The Mavs are obviously worse than the Cavs because they had more information available to them on the internet compared to when Lebron entered the league, and the Mavs also had the Cavs to use as example of what not to do but still did the same.

[speedkilz88]

That's true but ONLY if you look at this from a purely offensive point of view... what about defense? Especially when you consider Luka's flaws on defense.

Let's build that statement out further. Does Luka really need space, or does he need someone who can help create space for him by being a viable option that he can dish the ball to when he's being doubled? What if he had someone like Hakeem, who was not a threat from three but could do his own thing from elsewhere without help?

Also, why are you only asking about "post-KP"? KP is the 2nd best 5-out Center in the league after Wemby, isn't he? Has KP's game really changed that much compared to when he was at the Mavs... or does he just look better when he's playing next to 4 quality defenders, which the Mavs can never replicate with Luka and Kyrie as starters? 

More importantly, even if there were better 5-out Centers out there, the Mavs fecked up the first 5 years of Luka's time here by being so very bad strategically with trades and in the draft... therefore, your trade-cupboard is bare... and now, the new CBA is also there to consider... so they won't be able to trade for them and need to look at the next best cheapest option, which is a rim-protecting Center who can also help defend the perimeter... and who can do it for 48 minutes (so that Dwight the Blight doesn't see the court).

In posting this, I just realized something else... I've become a huge Caitlin Clark fan over this off-season. I really, really hope the Fever's Front Office doesn't become the next Cavs or Mavs and waste Caitlin's first 5-7 years in the league by doing as many stupid things. AFAIC, the Cavs and Mavs are the poster-childs for how to waste away the first years of a generational talent. The Mavs are obviously worse than the Cavs because they had more information available to them on the internet compared to when Lebron entered the league, and the Mavs also had the Cavs to use as example of what not to do but still did the same.

They better get Caitlin a bodyguard/enforcer.

[RGP1981]

They better get Caitlin a bodyguard/enforcer.

Haha! I agree, lol. Who do you think they should get to play that role? I don't know much about other WNBA players.

Btw, I just saw an interview with their new GM, Kelly Krauskopf, and I fear that she's going down the same path that the Cavs and Mavs did. In that interview, she was talking about getting more veterans in, ughh. She even actually said this, "look at the Aces, Lynx and Liberty... what they have in common is veteran experience, and so we want to get more veterans in too". One of the stupidest things I have heard in awhile. What those teams have in common is that their main players came into the league around the same time, and thus those teams have cores who are on the same time-line.

The Fever's focus during Caitlin's 1st two years in the league should be on getting together a young core through the draft that can last for 10 years. Personally, I think they need to trade Kelsey Mitchell ASAP (after Caitlin helped raise her stock to its highest level) for draft picks, and then draft Azzi Fudd and Sonia Citron. Azzi and Sonia aren't superstars at the college level (not a knock on them, I think they will become stars in the W). My only point there is they should be available with picks #4-8... and they're wonderful, high BBIQ players who clicked instantly with Caitlin when they played for the U-19 team.

[mvossman]

RGP1981 Wrote:

That's true but ONLY if you look at this from a purely offensive point of view... what about defense? Especially when you consider Luka's flaws on defense.

Let's build that statement out further. Does Luka really need space, or does he need someone who can help create space for him by being a viable option that he can dish the ball to when he's being doubled? What if he had someone like Hakeem, who was not a threat from three but could do his own thing from elsewhere without help?

Also, why are you only asking about "post-KP"? KP is the 2nd best 5-out Center in the league after Wemby, isn't he? Has KP's game really changed that much compared to when he was at the Mavs... or does he just look better when he's playing next to 4 quality defenders, which the Mavs can never replicate with Luka and Kyrie as starters?

This is an awkward reply because I have you on ignore, but saw this when someone else replied to your replay (a limitation of the ignore feature).

The 5 out lineup featuring Maxi/PJ/Luka had a 94 defensive rating (+20 net) which is crazy good.  Those players are still on this team, which is the same reason I focused on the post KP trade.  I also used those examples because they are the two best runs this team has had since the championship and they both had a significant 5 out component.

[DL2RimRocker]

I hear you, but there are a lot more minutes than 12 for Gafford.  Try to look at it as total minutes available to a position (82 games x 48 minutes = 3,936 minutes).  Lively only played 1,293 minutes last year (55 games, 23.5 minutes), Gafford 1,816 (71 games, 24.5 minutes).  

If both Lively and Gafford play the same number of games at 28mins, the total minutes is 3,612, over 300 minutes left over.

Like I said, if Nico can sell Gaff on that he will be my new God.
Everyone seems to be looking at this from a Mavs fan point of view and not so much Gaffords.

As a Mavs fan I'd say hell yes at keeping both of them, but not at the sacrifice of areas of greater need.
 Right now it makes complete sense because Lively is on a rookie deal and we have secured all of the necessary pieces to win a championship. The situation wont be the same in 2 years.

[The Jom]

Yep. And I am not underselling Lively, ie this is not based on any doubts about his potential.

Just recognizing some realities. As in ...

1 There are challenges that exist when you are a slender guy who will often have to play against physical brutes. Play heavy minutes and you greatly increase your risk of injury (which we already saw, as he had MULTIPLE different injuries as a rookie that caused him to miss games). 

2 Tyson Chandler, a good comp, averaged 27 mpg.

3 Because of injuries, there will be games in which he logs 0 minutes of the 42-44, and games in which there will be 42-44 available (and he can't fill) because DG is dinged up.

4 Also, in that 42-44 mpg, I am only considering how to divvy the minutes as a center -- ie, if there's thought that Lively might have potential to do more than rim-run and rebound-defend, a la KG supposedly, then he would end up being used as a PF for some of the game. Maybe that happens, but it doesn't necessarily lengthen his minutes at C.

5 One issue that is completely overlooked re Lively is that he is AWFUL at FTs, and that is going to be an extra limiter on his minutes. You can't trust him to close games when Hack-A-Dereck is a possible way for a team to get an empty possession out of the Mavs. Gafford is not as bad, but also is bad, which makes it a thing that can impact C minutes.

Those opinions are certainly reasonable. But imho you are predicting little to no growth from the 20-year old. He’s bad at FT’s now. He’s slender now. He commands 28 mins/night now. I do not expect those limits to last the season, let alone the next 2. He’s a 30-minute man very soon. Not advocating for a Gafford trade here. Just saying Lively is very good and improving.

[DL2RimRocker]

It all comes down mainly to the value of Lively and Gafford around the 2026 TDL.

I personally think Lively's ceiling is much higher than TCs peak and he will be a 35 mpg star. If that comes to fruition there is no way Mavs will pay someone Gaff's caliber market value.

Obviously a hell of a lot can change between now and then but I injected myself into this conversation to give a rebuttal to those who think Gaff is virtually untouchable. I can see many scenarios in which Mavs would consider trading as early as next season. I don't see where they would consider trading him this season unless something drastic happened like Klay going Rondo/Odom on us, or if he suffers a season ending injury.

[HoosierDaddyKid]

https://x.com/ShamsCharania/status/1846621230498975815


Kings signed Doug McDermott on a one-year deal.

[HoosierDaddyKid]

https://x.com/jxlorenzi/status/1846567046156292449


Thunder sign 3 pt specialist Buddy Boeheim

[KillerLeft]

Those opinions are certainly reasonable. But imho you are predicting little to no growth from the 20-year old. He’s bad at FT’s now. He’s slender now. He commands 28 mins/night now. I do not expect those limits to last the season, let alone the next 2. He’s a 30-minute man very soon. Not advocating for a Gafford trade here. Just saying Lively is very good and improving.

What tips the conversation in your direction for me is the certainty that Lively is going to get a HUGE contract when his rookie deal is up. I feel pretty confident that Gafford will be gone at that point, regardless of how anyone feels, out of simple necessity. Part of me believes the sooner he's dealt, the more value he'll have, but part of me loves the current two-headed monster (on offense, at least). 

I trust the current Mavs management more than the old, so I'm optimistic they'll get it right, whichever direction they choose.

[SleepingHero]

@TheDunkCentral

Giannis Antetokounmpo thinks he might be traded if the Bucks don’t win the championship

“Yeah, if we don’t win a championship, I might get traded. This is the job we live. This is the world we’re living in. It’s everybody. At any given moment, if you don’t succeed, that might be it for us. ...If you don’t do a good enough job, you’re out.”

[SleepingHero]

@matissa15
From what I’ve heard, it seems like the Kings are not done making moves after this Doug McDermott signing.

Zach LaVine or Brandon Ingram is still a goal of theirs.

[The Jom]

@matissa15
From what I’ve heard, it seems like the Kings are not done making moves after this Doug McDermott signing.

Zach LaVine or Brandon Ingram is still a goal of theirs.

Interesting. I’d wager getting LaVine or Ingram to the Kings is also a goal of the Bulls and Pelicans.