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05-19-2023, 09:17 PM
(This post was last modified: 05-19-2023, 10:32 PM by Luka77.)
"Those that can not learn from history are doomed to repeat it."
After the break up of Mavs chamionship team, with an aging 33 year old Dirk and roster the Mavs went into get "win now" players only mode.
This consists of let's sign Darren Williams and Dwight Howard to extend the chamionship window(fail). That didn't happen and we have to win for Dirk let's overpay Chandler Parsons, Wes Mathews, Monta Ellis, trade assets for Rajon Rondo and attempt to sign DeAndre Jordon(fail).
Okay we have no assests let's over pay Harrison Barnes and bring in any other vets possible (fail).
All this while missing out on drafting a generational player and developing him in Giannis.
I say all this because now the Mavs are in a parallel position except with a 24 year old super star and another 31 y.o all star if he signs.
Why exactly are the Mavs in a hurry/panic? Bring in the best players for now and the future even if it takes a bit for that player to develop.
If that means building through the draft so be it. Do not panic by saying only go for "win now" players only.
Have a draft plan and stick to it. Their are likely players in this draft that can help the Mavs iimmediately. Identify them and trust your development staff.
I know the Mavs are desperate for a competent 5 at center, However, bringing in a player like Ayton, Capella, Allen, claxton while paying a high lottery pick is more of the same.
Unless it's a all NBA player type, I am not trading the pick for one of these "win now" player's.
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05-19-2023, 09:42 PM
(This post was last modified: 05-19-2023, 09:44 PM by ballsrchr.)
I'm all for building and maintaining a team through the draft--with the occasional foray into an appropriate trade. A strong team holds all the cards when it comes to trades. A weak team with no assets is doomed--until they finally get a 1-3 draft pick--and start building from there. But...how is that working out for us with Luka? Not well...
Unfortunately the Mavs (Cuban) have been fleeced in almost all transactions--for at least the last 10 or 11 years.
Still! Still...I have hopes that this year will be "the year."
I'm a glutton for pain and misery...
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Dirk had declined enough that he wasn't carrying a team to a title again. We also weren't worried about him asking out. Luka is in his prime and wants to win now. That's a pretty big difference.
If there are truly no decent trades to be had then fine, keep the pick. But I think everyone is a bit overly optimistic about how much some of these prospects could contribute immediately. The majority of players being discussed will be total busts.
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(05-20-2023, 07:17 AM)loki Wrote: Dirk had declined enough that he wasn't carrying a team to a title again. We also weren't worried about him asking out. Luka is in his prime and wants to win now. That's a pretty big difference.
If there are truly no decent trades to be had then fine, keep the pick. But I think everyone is a bit overly optimistic about how much some of these prospects could contribute immediately. The majority of players being discussed will be total busts.
First, Dirk had just come off a championship winning season in that year was the best version of himself. He was in his prime. A NBA players athletic prime is usually between 27 y.o and 34 years old. Dirk didn't start showing decline until he was 35 with ankle and other injuries starting to catching up to him.
Next, during a similar time in Dirk career (his 6th season) they made the best decision in it which eventually led to being a high seed in the playoffs and a championship. They drafted Josh Howard and inserted him into the starting lineup. Josh would eventually be traded for Caron Butler a move that was key to bringing toughness to a championship team that was considered soft.
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(05-20-2023, 10:33 AM)Luka77 Wrote: First, Dirk had just come off a championship winning season in that year was the best version of himself. He was in his prime. A NBA players athletic prime is usually between 27 y.o and 34 years old. Dirk didn't start showing decline until he was 35 with ankle and other injuries starting to catching up to him.
Next, during a similar time in Dirk career (his 6th season) they made the best decision in it which eventually led to being a high seed in the playoffs and a championship. They drafted Josh Howard and inserted him into the starting lineup. Josh would eventually be traded for Caron Butler a move that was key to bringing toughness to a championship team that was considered soft.
I wasn't referring specifically to the year after the championship. You mentioned a lot of players from various seasons. Dirk was far from his peak by the time most of them were acquired. When they decided to sign Barnes for example, Dirk averaged 18/6 on a team that went 42-40 the prior season. If it wasn't already, that was certainly time to go in a different direction.
As for Josh Howard, he was the 29th pick in the draft. That pick didn't have anywhere near the trade value that #10 does this year. When Washington eventually traded for him it was primarily to save money. He had already declined pretty significantly.
And what about all the other failed 1st round picks? Mo Ager, Jared Cunningham, Justin Anderson. You could even include DSJ, although they cut bait in time to get some value out of him.
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For those of you that forget or have short memories.
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This thread was written when people were throwing around the pick in every trade possible (Ayton, Capella, Claxton, ect)
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I'm incredibly happy that they nailed the Lively pick, but I still agree with my above posts. The likelihood of things working out the way they did were low. Looking back through the draft, the only player taken at #10 or later who could have had a similar impact was Jaquez. The Mavs would have been in a really tough spot if they had taken anyone other than him or Lively. Full credit to their scouts for finding a gem and their coaches for bringing him along so quickly.
Having said that, Lively wasn't the only path to success. Dallas would have had an even better year if they had been able to trade for a guy like Claxton or Allen. Long term I obviously prefer Lively, but going for the sure thing (if available - and maybe it wasn't) was still a sensible option.
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07-09-2024, 09:09 PM
(This post was last modified: 07-09-2024, 09:30 PM by Luka77.)
(07-09-2024, 08:35 PM)loki Wrote: I'm incredibly happy that they nailed the Lively pick, but I still agree with my above posts. The likelihood of things working out the way they did were low. Looking back through the draft, the only player taken at #10 or later who could have had a similar impact was Jaquez. The Mavs would have been in a really tough spot if they had taken anyone other than him or Lively. Full credit to their scouts for finding a gem and their coaches for bringing him along so quickly.
Having said that, Lively wasn't the only path to success. Dallas would have had an even better year if they had been able to trade for a guy like Claxton or Allen. Long term I obviously prefer Lively, but going for the sure thing (if available - and maybe it wasn't) was still a sensible option.
Podzimski just replaced the guy we signed this offseason in the starting lineup. Maybe he doesn’t have the same impact as Lively. But, you don't think he would have helped the Mavs?
GG Jackson may have been the rookie of year on the Mavs
Moreover, there will be several other players in that draft in the coming years that will have a big impact in the NBA. They are just behind more veteran players.
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Btw, Unlike all of those vets the Mavs didn't trade for, Lively is on a rookie scale contract. It's much easier to build a team around Luka and Kyrie with a rookie scale contract for the next several years instead of those Vets.
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(07-09-2024, 10:04 PM)Luka77 Wrote: Btw, Unlike all of those vets the Mavs didn't trade for, Lively is on a rookie scale contract. It's much easier to build a team around Luka and Kyrie with a rookie scale contract for the next several years instead of those Vets.
By having drafted him, the Mavs have the inside track on keeping him for a long, long time.
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(07-09-2024, 09:09 PM)Luka77 Wrote: Podzimski just replaced the guy we signed this offseason in the starting lineup. Maybe he doesn’t have the same impact as Lively. But, you don't think he would have helped the Mavs?
GG Jackson may have been the rookie of year on the Mavs
Moreover, there will be several other players in that draft in the coming years that will have a big impact in the NBA. They are just behind more veteran players.
There are a few other nice players. Not saying none of them could have helped. But would the Mavs have made the Finals or even won a playoff series? Imagine they drafted Taylor Hendricks (I think half the board including me wanted him) and then got bounced in the 1st round. All the talk would be about Luka's future in Dallas and how the shoe salesman failed to put a team around him.
I just see more scenarios where going the draft route results in coming up empty or with a prospect that's not a core piece. If that happens when Luka is 20 it's not the end of the world, but it could have been disastrous this time around.
In any case, I'm happy they rolled the dice and won. Having the 20 year old starter on a rookie deal is no doubt a huge benefit.
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I'm a little curious why this is coming up now? I mean we have all said things that turned out to be right on this board. I don't even remember this being a particularly controversial position. Most folks were happy about the way the offseason turned out before knowing what a beast Lively was.
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(07-10-2024, 12:42 PM)mvossman Wrote: I'm a little curious why this is coming up now? I mean we have all said things that turned out to be right on this board. I don't even remember this being a particularly controversial position. Most folks were happy about the way the offseason turned out before knowing what a beast Lively was.
In other words, nobody here cares about this discussion
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