Trade & FA 2024-25:

[SleepingHero]

Landon Thomas (@sixfivelando)
Waiting for the Melvin Ajinca trade to be official, Nico Harrison to speak shortly after.

[Chicagojk]

Did I read correctly that Denver paid 3 second-round picks to move on from a reasonably useful Reggie's Jackson's $5.2mm contract.  So, does it take 9 seconds to move on from the reasonably useful THJ at $16mm?

Do we still think the Toronto second is going to move THJ to the Pistons AND get us Grimes?

Yeah, that is not a great sign.   I don't want to give up 25 first and wouldn't for Grimes.  If DJJ was really my priority would I give it up for DFS for Hardaway?  hmmm..not sure.

[KillerLeft]

Yeah, that is not a great sign.   I don't want to give up 25 first and wouldn't for Grimes.  If DJJ was really my priority would I give it up for DFS for Hardaway?  hmmm..not sure.

So you’d prefer DFS over Grimes. Interesting.

[SleepingHero]

Did I read correctly that Denver paid 3 second-round picks to move on from a reasonably useful Reggie's Jackson's $5.2mm contract.  So, does it take 9 seconds to move on from the reasonably useful THJ at $16mm?

Do we still think the Toronto second is going to move THJ to the Pistons AND get us Grimes?

Different situations really. DEN is desperately trying to retain KCP. They're about 5 mil from the 1st apron now and still have to carve out some more space to get to the number KCP is looking for and stay under the 2nd apron.


So I still do (foolishly) think THJ can net us Grimes without the inclusion of anything more than the TOR 2nd just because of how stacked the 2025 class is supposed to be.

[LukaMVP]

green sounds like the right price to pay Detroit for eating THJ's contract, Grimes would take green's minutes and do just as good (if not better) hopefully.

[Chicagojk]

Im not gonna lose sleep over a bunch of random 2-way guys in this draft.

I get that.   they are the longest of shots.   But two way guys are at least cheap developmental pieces.   Can any of our three two way guys come back next year?   Lawson has been in the league for a while and came up to the real roster.  Our guard we picked is also pretty old.    And the Texas big guy was MIA at the end of the season.  Didn't even make it to the team photo.  Not sure what happened there.

They picked up Alex Fudge.  He is supposedly a great athlete but had really small stats in college.   Prime opportunity to fill the pipeline.  I actually really liked Mike Myles last year but he lost his two way and was pretty average in the G-league.

[Chicagojk]

So you’d prefer DFS over Grimes. Interesting.

I think so.  I am just not sure what Grimes is.    I feel confident even an older DFS can be on the floor in a big playoff moment and I will have confidence in him making a big shot.   I am not sure what Grimes is.

I really want to hold on to 25 for a higher quality player or keeping the pick to draft.

A DJJ. Green, DFS and PJ wing rotation looks solid.  Not perfect and losing 25 hurts and may not be something I would do.   I could be convinced Grimes is the better option.  I just dont know.

[KillerLeft]

Dan was right the other day. If turning THJ into Grimes AND Jones Jr requires the Mavs to break off the 2025 1st, they have to do it. I hope they can figure something better out, but if not there really is no choice. That’s keeping your best defender and adding another player to the rotation who could be very helpful. So much better than stretch waiving Shamet, for example.

[KillerLeft]

I think so.  I am just not sure what Grimes is.    I feel confident even an older DFS can be on the floor in a big playoff moment and I will have confidence in him making a big shot.   I am not sure what Grimes is.

I really want to hold on to 25 for a higher quality player or keeping the pick to draft.

It seems like part of the equation is that you’re not super into DJJ. I’m sold on the part he played in this run, and think he’s about to start showing up on “best defenders” lists.

[Chicagojk]

It seems like part of the equation is that you’re not super into DJJ. I’m sold on the part he played in this run, and think he’s about to start showing up on “best defenders” lists.

No, I want DJJ back.  DFS would backup PJ.    Maybe we can't sign DJJ if we traded Timmy and Powell  and pick 25 for DFS.   That is what I am proposing.  Again, 25 is valuable to me and I am not sure I would move forward with this.

[The Jom]

Did I read correctly that Denver paid 3 second-round picks to move on from a reasonably useful Reggie's Jackson's $5.2mm contract.  So, does it take 9 seconds to move on from the reasonably useful THJ at $16mm?

Do we still think the Toronto second is going to move THJ to the Pistons AND get us Grimes?

I hit the “like” button cause this was a smart post. But I don’t like like it. I actually kinda hate it.

[SleepingHero]

@esidery
The Hornets and Miles Bridges have mutual interest on signing a new long-term deal.

Charlotte has prioritized Bridges re-signing as their top priority in free agency.

Charlotte’s future starting lineup: LaMelo Ball, Brandon Miller, Miles Bridges, Tidjane Salaun, Mark Williams

[mvossman]

I think so.  I am just not sure what Grimes is.    I feel confident even an older DFS can be on the floor in a big playoff moment and I will have confidence in him making a big shot.   I am not sure what Grimes is.

I really want to hold on to 25 for a higher quality player or keeping the pick to draft.

A DJJ. Green, DFS and PJ wing rotation looks solid.  Not perfect and losing 25 hurts and may not be something I would do.   I could be convinced Grimes is the better option.  I just dont know.

I trust Grimes second season and think this last one was due to getting crossways with Thibs and injury. In that case he is a smaller DFS but a better volume three point shooter. He is also only 24. A protected first for Grimes and DJJ feels a lot like the TDL moves we just made.

[Smitty]

I'm caught up on this thread now, and had to go back and search this one out. Too interesting to pass up. I think this helps me understand a lot of what causes you and I to disagree on some of this stuff, despite my general feeling that you really get the game. 

The only thing I agree with from the list above is the Kleber part. He's a 5, has been a 5, and it's pretty undeniable. I agree with the shooting point you're making (uncommon range at the 5 turns to "way too slow of a release" at the 4 in the blink of an eye), and would actually double down and say that foot speed goes from being a huge positive on defense as 5 to a slight negative as 4, too. 

The other three assertions intrigue me. In each case, I'd have said the opposite. 

I don't think ANYONE is "a PG" anymore, at least not in the way that (I think) you mean. To my way of thinking, a guard who can't handle the ball, and I don't just mean bringing it up, but actually able to floor the ball to create an advantage for himself (and yes, for others) isn't useful in today's NBA. We are watching guys like Hield, Hardaway, Robinson, Redick, etc, fade away in live time. That's kind of dying breed now - those who are flourishing in that role are now 6'6"-6'9" and play forward. What some argue is the Mavs "trying to make Hardy a PG" is really just "trying to make Hardy play NBA basketball as a guard" to me. It's interesting to me that so many have a problem with this. 

And THAT'S probably why I see Green as a 3. I think he's a 3/2, to be fair, but I'd FOR SURE put the 3 first. He's really fast...for a 3. Speed doesn't pop at the 2. He's got a great handle and is a great passer...for a 3. Sub-par dribbling/playmaking skills for a guard, imo. He has become a decent shooter...for a 3. His release looks better every year, but he's still passing up way too many shots, and in the blink of an eye, it seems that EVERY guard out there can string complex dribble moves together to create a long jumper (off of the dribble) out of some type of step back or side step. I think he can (or should be able to) GAURD other guards, and I LOVE that about him (in theory). 

Totally agree that DJJ, on offense, is under qualified as a starter. However, he did better than I expected him to do with his shooting this season. Like, way better. Are we sure he can't get even more comfortable as a catch and shoot guy, now that he's FINALLY getting a chance? I'm not, but I do see where you're coming from here. Still, did you see the list I posted the other day about "league leaders in % of their minutes being spent defending the opponent's best scoring ball-handler?" DJJ was in first place by a mile, at 54%. I really, really think we've become a little desensitized to just HOW GOOD the dude was on defense this season. This is no small thing, imho. If you can make the team better by replacing him as a starter, cool, and it's not like he's so good I don't think that's possible. And, I think he'd still be impactful off the bench. But, he was INTEGRAL to the team's success down the stretch and in the playoffs, so it's not like I'm going to be disappointed if he's the opening night starter, know what I mean?

This is a lot to unpack. I talk ball all the time in by day to day life but don’t get into the X’s and O’s on here because it’s difficult to have a real discussion on the specifics. Too much nuance and people tend to argue past each other when there’s almost always some middle ground. I’m sure if you and I had a drink at the bar we’d agree much more than we disagree whereas typing my detailed opinions on a message board can get lost in translation.

As for where you think we disagree. 

Hardy - when I say PG I don’t mean 90’s PG. I mean initiate the offense, on ball PnR as the ball handler, making decisions out of double teams, etc.. I’d call Kyrie a PG even though he’s a SG here. But Hardy is a carbon copy of Tim Hardaway Jr to me. Play exclusively off ball, CnS threes, a bit of two dribble pull up in the mid range. I never want Tim to be a decision maker in the same way I don’t want Hardy to be one.

Green - he is undersized as a forward, on switches he’s not big enough to have any real impact on the opponent’s shot. Because he’s so bad at screen navigation, he gets matched up on forwards regardless but he needs to get better at it. On offense I think he’s more than capable of being a decision maker, running some PnR actions, moving off the ball/slashing and being a traditional 2 but LuKai are here so naturally his role will only be an undersized forward. Still not his natural position, which is my point.

DJJ- his defense was massive and one of the many reasons the Mavs made it through the WCF gauntlet. I just think he’s so limited offensively that he can’t be a 36 mpg guy. I’ve pointed out how bad he was from 3 (96% of all his attempts were Wide Open and he shot 35%) that’s incredibly bad. He’s a vertical threat also and I love that part of his game but the finals showed us that this team needs more offense and the weakest link is DJJ. In a 20-24 mpg role where his defense can be a difference maker and you can overcome his O, that’s where I see the fit moving forward. This team can’t overcome 36+ minutes of limited to bad O, IMO.

Bottom line, I said I would be just fine running it back but my post was about the weakness of the roster and how it can be better. Are the Mavs better with a more polished offensive player at the 3 but give up the PoA defense that DJJ provides? I don’t know, but DJJ is too limited for me to feel good about him playing starter minutes in the finals.

[Smitty]

Different situations really. DEN is desperately trying to retain KCP. They're about 5 mil from the 1st apron now and still have to carve out some more space to get to the number KCP is looking for and stay under the 2nd apron.


So I still do (foolishly) think THJ can net us Grimes without the inclusion of anything more than the TOR 2nd just because of how stacked the 2025 class is supposed to be.

The good thing about it is the ‘25 FRP will be pick 30 and the ‘25 SRP (TOR) will be pick 31. 

[RoyTarpleysGhost]

Different situations really. DEN is desperately trying to retain KCP. They're about 5 mil from the 1st apron now and still have to carve out some more space to get to the number KCP is looking for and stay under the 2nd apron.


So I still do (foolishly) think THJ can net us Grimes without the inclusion of anything more than the TOR 2nd just because of how stacked the 2025 class is supposed to be.

how is it a different situation?

we’re desperately trying to retain DJJ just like they are with KCP

[KillerLeft]

Hardy - when I say PG I don’t mean 90’s PG. I mean initiate the offense, on ball PnR as the ball handler, making decisions out of double teams, etc.. I’d call Kyrie a PG even though he’s a SG here. But Hardy is a carbon copy of Tim Hardaway Jr to me. Play exclusively off ball, CnS threes, a bit of two dribble pull up in the mid range. I never want Tim to be a decision maker in the same way I don’t want Hardy to be one.

Green - he is undersized as a forward, on switches he’s not big enough to have any real impact on the opponent’s shot. Because he’s so bad at screen navigation, he gets matched up on forwards regardless but he needs to get better at it. On offense I think he’s more than capable of being a decision maker, running some PnR actions, moving off the ball/slashing and being a traditional 2 but LuKai are here so naturally his role will only be an undersized forward. Still not his natural position, which is my point.

You make some good points. I just reach different conclusions than you do. I think it's pretty clear that Hardy has developed quite a bit as an offensive decision maker, and if you limit him to catch and shoots and 2-3 tried and true two-dribble shot solutions, I think you're turning your back on what the Mavs liked about him, which is, in my opinion, his plethora of really polished iso counters, mostly in the mid-range. I think he's really quite advanced in some ways, offensively. And, I think he's starting to make the right pass, and accurately, when he actually looks to pass. For me, all he has to do is stop over-penetrating. BUT, I sure as heck don't want to take away his license to penetrate, because he's REALLY good at it, and that's something the Mavs need. In order for him to play that way, he needs the ball, and in order for him to have the ball, he needs to be able to play PG, at least a little, especially in this kind of offense. I honestly thought the progress he made this year on this front was encouraging, and I'm expecting a big year from him next season if he's here. 

I agree with some of what you're saying about Green's defense. He's never going to bother someone like Jason Tatum, for example. So, from that perspective, I agree that he's not that type of forward. But, as long as Luka Doncic is on this team, they'll need smaller quicker guys who can play forward on offense and credibly guard down. Totally agree that screen navigation has to improve if he's to be worthwhile at any position for much longer. And my goodness, do we see a different player on offense. His handle is decent, and he CAN make passes. I like when he has the ball in transition. But "running some PnR?" I couldn't disagree with that more if I tried, and compared to him, I think Hardy is Chris Paul. Right now. 

Still, thanks for responding. I wish more people got into this stuff around here, personally. I'll argue with you anytime.

[LukaMVP]

our financial situation is better than theirs, and the market for DJJ is not as good as KCP tbh.

[Smitty]

You make some good points. I just reach different conclusions than you do. I think it's pretty clear that Hardy has developed quite a bit as an offensive decision maker, and if you limit him to catch and shoots and 2-3 tried and true two-dribble shot solutions, I think you're turning your back on what the Mavs liked about him, which is, in my opinion, his plethora of really polished iso counters, mostly in the mid-range. I think he's really quite advanced in some ways, offensively. And, I think he's starting to make the right pass, and accurately, when he actually looks to pass. For me, all he has to do is stop over-penetrating. BUT, I sure as heck don't want to take away his license to penetrate, because he's REALLY good at it, and that's something the Mavs need. In order for him to play that way, he needs the ball, and in order for him to have the ball, he needs to be able to play PG, at least a little, especially in this kind of offense. I honestly thought the progress he made this year on this front was encouraging, and I'm expecting a big year from him next season if he's here. 

I agree with some of what you're saying about Green's defense. He's never going to bother someone like Jason Tatum, for example. So, from that perspective, I agree that he's not that type of forward. But, as long as Luka Doncic is on this team, they'll need smaller quicker guys who can play forward on offense and credibly guard down. Totally agree that screen navigation has to improve if he's to be worthwhile at any position for much longer. And my goodness, do we see a different player on offense. His handle is decent, and he CAN make passes. I like when he has the ball in transition. But "running some PnR?" I couldn't disagree with that more if I tried, and compared to him, I think Hardy is Chris Paul. Right now. 

Still, thanks for responding. I wish more people got into this stuff around here, personally. I'll argue with you anytime.

I think we disagree on those two and that’s perfectly fine and normal. I appreciate your willingness to dive into this stuff on here. I respect your opinion whether you believe it or not.

In the past few months we’ve had a few moments but I hope you know I mean no disrespect, ever! I love that we have this forum to discuss these things. This is probably your type of thing more than it is mine because I’m terrible at putting my thoughts on paper but when I say you’re the loudest voice here, it’s a token of respect because you and others like you keep this place alive!

[KillerLeft]

I think we disagree on those two and that’s perfectly fine and normal. I appreciate your willingness to dive into this stuff on here. I respect your opinion whether you believe it or not.

In the past few months we’ve had a few moments but I hope you know I mean no disrespect, ever! I love that we have this forum to discuss these things. This is probably your type of thing more than it is mine because I’m terrible at putting my thoughts on paper but when I say you’re the loudest voice here, it’s a token of respect because you and others like you keep this place alive!

Yeah, I must've conveyed my tone poorly, because I didn't mean to pick a fight or something. I'm a little surprised at your reaction here. At no point during this conversation was I upset or arguing "at" you. I just love talking about this stuff and was surprised by your reasoning earlier. I enjoyed this conversation, lol. You offered some valuable insight, imo. 

Anyway, thanks for the kind words, and right back atcha!