THE GREEN MACHINE: The Subtle Emergence of Josh Green

[Razzmatazz_Hopskidillydoo]

Prediction: the Mavs (Kidd) will treat Green as this year's Christian Wood to try to tank his value.

Wood being hard to deal with may have gotten to Kidd.
So I wouldn't be surprised if Kidd's gone out of his way to tank Wood's value.

But Green seems to me like totally coachable.

Kidd might have been one of the collaborators for a Wood tanking, but I refuse to believe he is that stup1d if he intends to tank Green's value.
It's not his money, it's Mark's.

If Kidd treats Green like he did with Wood.
I bet Mark and Nico would be the masterminds.
Emphasis is on Mark of course.

[DanSchwartzgan]

Several video’s out there previewing Green as an emerging player this upcoming season.
 
A few numbers contained in these…

His above the break 3% was an incredible 45% last season.

As a roll man he scored 1.18 points per attempt

His high rebound game is 12.  His high assist game is 10 (not something you see from people who are “only” 3 & D) 

In the comments of one of the videos, it was pointed out that Jimmy Butler’s age 23 season as an occasional starter was 8.6/4/1.4.  The next season (age 24) he was 13.1/5/2.6 finally achieving full time starter status.  The upcoming season is Green’s age 23 season.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p_qgkfZJZZ8

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_rqI0KZwl_w


These are a little older

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MPlBnOV9X_w

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=soNYtWFt0Ss

[mvossman]

Several video’s out there previewing Green as an emerging player this upcoming season.
 
A few numbers contained in these…

His above the break 3% was an incredible 45% last season.

As a roll man he scored 1.18 points per attempt

His high rebound game is 12.  His high assist game is 10 (not something you see from people who are “only” 3 & D) 

In the comments of one of the videos, it was pointed out that Jimmy Butler’s age 23 season as an occasional starter was 8.6/4/1.4.  The next season (age 24) he was 13.1/5/2.6 finally achieving full time starter status.  The upcoming season is Green’s age 23 season.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p_qgkfZJZZ8

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_rqI0KZwl_w


These are a little older

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MPlBnOV9X_w

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=soNYtWFt0Ss

Jimmy Butler is a bold comparison.  In the year mentioned, Jimmy's FGA per 36 stayed roughly the same, and almost all of the difference in scoring was due to going from 26 minutes a game to 39.  I seriously doubt Green is going to get 39 minutes a game.

That being said, if you look at Jimmy's next season (age 25) his FGA per 36 jumped from 9.6 to 13.  That is a massive jump and the kind of jump Green would likely need to get near 15 points a game, so it can be done.  I'm just having a hard time seeing Green turn into Jimmy Butler aggressiveness any time soon.

[youzigizag]

Curious what the 2020 NBA Draft Redo would look like.

Looks like Harlobos might have been right on Green.

There are some post 18 picks and 2nd rounders that get good NBA minutes these days.

Green has offensive fundamental flaws...but he seems like a legit player with 3 shot now. He has also polished up his driving and finishing skills a bit. They looked ugly first few years...but he has developed confidence...and I think in 2 years he will look even better by adding to that comfort. He still can only dribble with one hand though.

His offensive skills coming into the league looked like a soccer player that played pick up bball here and there growing up...now he's starting to look like a bball player.

[MarkAguirreWrathofGod]

It seems as though Josh is making a mini-leap defensively too. He has had some very impressive performances in the past couple weeks as point of attack defender.

[youzigizag]

It seems as though Josh is making a mini-leap defensively too. He has had some very impressive performances in the past couple weeks as point of attack defender.

I just saw on the RealGM Charlotte board someone post a stat painting Josh in a negative light...

They were not liking that he only has 27 blocked shots...not in one year...but in 4 years.

Dont know if the stat is fact or not...just relaying what I read posters discussing on the Charlotte board about Josh.

Someone posted a Pro's and Con's list for Josh...it suggested Josh isnt a good defender and doesnt know when to go over or under on screens and also gives up when screened.  Dont know how accurate those assessments are.   Josh seems to defend well but gets fouls called on him easily.   I think he can defend one on one and think Mavs ask him to run around too much on team defense.   But Im not scout.

[StrandedOnBeauboisHill]

I just saw on the RealGM Charlotte board someone post a stat painting Josh in a negative light...

They were not liking that he only has 27 blocked shots...not in one year...but in 4 years.

Dont know if the stat is fact or not...just relaying what I read posters discussing on the Charlotte board about Josh.

Someone posted a Pro's and Con's list for Josh...it suggested Josh isnt a good defender and doesnt know when to go over or under on screens and also gives up when screened.  Dont know how accurate those assessments are.   Josh seems to defend well but gets fouls called on him easily.   I think he can defend one on one and think Mavs ask him to run around too much on team defense.   But Im not scout.

Those things are certainly true, he is an awful screen navigator but it's also true that he's played good defense lately.  It's funny because on paper he seems like he should be a POA defender and that's how we use him mostly but he's way better off ball just disrupting everything with his energy.  Screen navigation is a skill that can be taught which is why I'm still hoping we can hold onto Josh.

[dirkfansince1998]

Those things are certainly true, he is an awful screen navigator but it's also true that he's played good defense lately.  It's funny because on paper he seems like he should be a POA defender and that's how we use him mostly but he's way better off ball just disrupting everything with his energy.  Screen navigation is a skill that can be taught which is why I'm still hoping we can hold onto Josh.

I think a lot of the issues are also about the (lack of) coaching. Especially when it comes to the pick and roll stuff. Mavs add one guy with a good defensive reputation after another (Williams, DJJ) and all of them are struggling in those situations.

[MarkAguirreWrathofGod]

The important thing is he’s still improving! And he’s still young. He’s starting to get more benefit of the doubt from the officials too lately, or at least has seems that way to me. He has gotten better at contesting without fouling. I agree the screen navigation needs some work. My guess is he’s adding unnecessary steps that throw him off balance. Footwork efficiency? Would have to watch clips but that’s what I see in my minds eye.

[ThisIStheYear]

You can’t judge Green or the draft pick on whether someone taken after him is better. It’s really only fair to judge him based on what he’s produced and Josh has justified the pick so far. If he can shoot 40% from the 3 you can’t really trade him.

[Smitty]

20-21 (30 G - 5 GS) 11.4 MPG
2.6 pts / 2.0 rbs / 0.7 ast

21-22 (67 G - 3 GS) 15.5 MPG
4.8 pts / 2.4 rbs / 1.2 ast

22-23 (60 G - 21 GS) 25.7 MPG
9.1 pts / 3.0 rbs / 1.7 ast

23-24* (20 G - 20 GS) 30.5 MPG
11.7 pts / 4.1 rbs / 2.6 ast

*Since returning from injury

[Chicagojk]

For a guy that I like and want to like more, Green is one of the most frustrating Mavs players for me for a long time. I know there is more there. He has moments but then it doesn't stick. It is pretty clear the team is hoping more from him too.

I want him to be 15-20 percent better on defense. His activity is great but good offensive players are not bothered by it. I think he is being more physical the second part of the year, but that has lead to some really bad non shooting fouls that led to free throws.

The offensive end is frustrating too. I look at a guy like Batum. Batum can have 0 point offensive games. Although he also has games where he shoots 8 threes. Last year, DFS and Bullock had no problem finding shots. It seems like Green typically is around 3-4 shots per game. We don't need him to be a prime offensive threat, but can he be a more consistent offensive threat. I am not sure if it is just a mental block.

I am really torn. Again, I think there is more there. I don't want to throw him away, but I am wondering now if this is really the right spot for him and being patient with him is the right move. Or if this is what he is in our system and should look for a different fit.

[omahen]

I am really torn.  Again, I think there is more there.  I don't want to throw him away, but I am wondering now if this is really the right spot for him and being patient with him is the right move.  Or if this is what he is in our system and should look for a different fit.

He is a totally same player in Australian national team. I think he is who he is. I don't mind having him but I also don't think he is difficult to replace at all. A win now team will need to stop waiting at some point. And Mavs are a win now team. 

Mavs have a similar decision to make with Hardy. Can he be trusted to take the 6th man role? Last year of his deal and he will not be cheap anymore afterthat (or still a vet min player, because he just isn't good enough). Unless there is a good move available in the summer, perhaps give him until TDL if he can be good in the role. If not, try to get something for him and look for a reliable option.

[SwisherPrice]

I've been a Green supporter (wanted the Mavs to draft him in 2020) and then criticized him a lot this season when he struggled. But I think I support him again, even though it's too late for him here. His problems on offense have more to do with the roster and lack of a scheme. He's just not a good fit for this current Mavs roster and style of play.

Remember, he was drafted when the core was Luka/KP so there was supposed to be room for development as a SG. Then the roster changed and especially last year, once they acquired Kyrie, that meant most of the minutes at guard would be filled by their two superstar scorers. Green has had to play as an undersized 3 and D wing instead of being able to develop as a guard. It seems like that has stunted his development. He's only 6'5" without bulk/strength so he has a physical limitation against bigger wings. When you don't have a size advantage, you need to develop ball-handling abilities and more offensive skills but it's hard for him to do that here when his role is to go stand in the corner and wait for a three.

He needs to go to a team where he is allowed to develop those skills instead of just standing in the weakside corner waiting for the ball to move. The time would be right to trade him this offseason...his new contract isn't that bad to take on for a team that likes him. A few teams probably view him the same and he can eventually be a solid all-around guard in the right situation. His best days in his career are still ahead, it just won't be for the Mavs

[omahen]

I've been a Green supporter (wanted the Mavs to draft him in 2020) and then criticized him a lot this season when he struggled. But I think I support him again, even though it's too late for him here. His problems on offense have more to do with the roster and lack of a scheme. He's just not a good fit for this current Mavs roster and style of play.

Remember, he was drafted when the core was Luka/KP so there was supposed to be room for development as a SG. Then the roster changed and especially last year, once they acquired Kyrie, that meant most of the minutes at guard would be filled by their two superstar scorers. Green has had to play as an undersized 3 and D wing instead of being able to develop as a guard. It seems like that has stunted his development. He's only 6'5" without bulk/strength so he has a physical limitation against bigger wings. When you don't have a size advantage, you need to develop ball-handling abilities and more offensive skills but it's hard for him to do that here when his role is to go stand in the corner and wait for a three.

He needs to go to a team where he is allowed to develop those skills instead of just standing in the weakside corner waiting for the ball to move. The time would be right to trade him this offseason...his new contract isn't that bad to take on for a team that likes him. A few teams probably view him the same and he can eventually be a solid all-around guard in the right situation. His best days in his career are still ahead, it just won't be for the Mavs

Hardy is even smaller and he has zero problems getting his in his minutes. He doesn't just stand in the corner and watch stars. He takes the ball and tries to do something. Sometimes he is even successful. Green has same opportunity to develop his offensive skills in the offseason as Hardy does. Greens role is as it is because he doesn't take more. Either because he doesn't have the skill or because he is "affraid" to do it.

[RoyTarpleysGhost]

Josh Green is a bum. He doesn't have the mentality to be a top 8 rotation player on a championship team.

Same with Exum. Must be something in the water in Australia. Both guys play scared. The bigger the moment, the more they shrink. I don't care about your stats from a November weeknight game in Charlotte.

[RGP1981]

Josh Green is a bum.  He doesn't have the mentality to be a top 8 rotation player on a championship team. 

Same with Exum.  Must be something in the water in Australia.  Both guys play scared.  The bigger the moment, the more they shrink.  I don't care about your stats from a November weeknight game in Charlotte.

Agreed! We have Aussies talking them up all the time... and throwing shade at people who get rightfully annoyed at Josh and Exum for their lack of growth and production... instead of accepting that those two bums are bums. I'm cool with Exum, only because he's on a minimum salary and his production per dollar of salary is fine. I'm not depending on Exum for anything though. Josh Green is way overpaid for what he has shown and really needs to get his head out of the sand next season. Anyway... I feel nationality/race/religion/player fandom needs to be thrown out of the window when you support a club and want what's best for it.

Similar thing with Germans (and some basketball hipsters) who call Maxi the "Wall of Wurzberg". Hah, Maxi is more like the Wurzberg Wanker.

[HoosierDaddyKidd]

Agreed! We have Aussies talking them up all the time... and throwing shade at people who get rightfully annoyed at Josh and Exum for their lack of growth and production... instead of accepting that those two bums are bums. I'm cool with Exum, only because he's on a minimum salary and his production per dollar of salary is fine. I'm not depending on Exum for anything though. Josh Green is way overpaid for what he has shown and really needs to get his head out of the sand next season. Anyway... I feel nationality/race/religion/player fandom needs to be thrown out of the window when you support a club and want what's best for it.

Similar thing with Germans (and some basketball hipsters) who call Maxi the "Wall of Wurzberg". Hah, Maxi is more like the Wurzberg Wanker.

And I remember some on here were saying he was a better pick than Saddiq Bey.  Up to this point, I'd have to disagree. Bey tore his ACL last year, that ended his season. But when he was with Detroit, he played well and even had a 51 pt game vs the Magic. In hindsight, I don't think Green would have had that chance though on Dallas, despite his timidness. I really don't see why they traded him for Wiseman, but that was a Troy Weaver move and why he no longer has a job. Green can reach another level in his development. But he has to decide that. He's athletic and has decent size.