08-05-2023, 11:31 AM
Trade & FA 2023-24: Vezenkov+Kings Are Done
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08-05-2023, 12:24 PM
(08-05-2023, 08:39 AM)mvossman Wrote: I wasn't triggered by your comments so much as they provided a useful opportunity to say something that has been on my mind. The problem is you tried to “share something on your mind” by adding an exaggeration while missing the point I was trying to make. I agree Bagley is not a 5 on defense. I also agree that he hasn’t proven himself to be a stretch big. He shot ~40% on 3’s in his one college year but has only flashed in the pro’s (season high ~35%). However, IMO his problem is not on the offensive end. I also agree with KillerLeft that Bagley (+ his dad) may be his own worst enemy which I suggested. I don’t know to what degree ego may be a limiting factor currently but I do understand that playing for Sac could be frustrating. You seem to feel like I am suggesting that the Bagley of today is a player to build around or even a starter on a playoff capable team today…I am not. What I am suggesting is that if he is willing, there may be something worth developing. Bagley was drafted primarily for his offense, measurables, and projections. If it is true that he was still lacking basic defensive fundamentals, the NBA is probably not the best place to learn those when you are a #2 pick. I think Bagley is a buy low guy for a team that has the $ room, willingness, and patience to develop him properly. Is he willing to swallow his pride to do that? I’m not sure but I bet his investor advisor hopes so.
08-05-2023, 12:56 PM
This board complained about THJ's defense until recently. He's now a descent defender? Nope. #fakenews. I have THJ ranked #103 in defense for guards. Yes, Hardy was terrible in D last year, but let's not make THJ Jrue Holiday.
(08-05-2023, 09:58 AM)surfpuckmd Wrote: He’s a low IQ player which is why he wouldn’t work here and wouldn’t get minutes under Jason Kidd.
08-05-2023, 03:52 PM
I think we mostly agree on Bagley. There’s some potential there but he’s not very good right now. The problem with your suggestion is that he’s not a potential low-cost option. He will make over $12 million per year for the next two seasons. If he’s available for the minimum in a couple of years, I’d be ok with that signing.
He also doesn’t fit the Mavericks current roster at this time so I’m not sure why we’re all spending so much time discussing him here. Overall, I think your analysis of Bagley is reasonable. The Pistons have made the same bet on him that you have suggested- they gave up a few 2nd rounders for him then gave him a 3-year contract to see if he can improve defensively. Monty Williams is a good coach so it’s possible. (08-05-2023, 03:52 PM)surfpuckmd Wrote: I think we mostly agree on Bagley. There’s some potential there but he’s not very good right now. The problem with your suggestion is that he’s not a potential low-cost option. He will make over $12 million per year for the next two seasons. If he’s available for the minimum in a couple of years, I’d be ok with that signing. Because it was brought up by a poster and it’s dead season for the NBA and this board. If you look at the last 3ish days of posts, outside of a few asking about the Hornets strategy, almost every post relates back to the 1st Bagley question. If the original poster hadn’t brought up the subject, you could have just visited the thread this morning and be caught up for the week before you finished your morning dump…assuming you take quick dumps.
08-06-2023, 10:55 PM
I suggest Blake Griffin for the Mavericks 15th roster spot. He didn't play a lot of minutes last year for the Celtics but he had a very positive impact when he played. He's become an excellent defensive player and would be a better rebounder than Dwight Powell. He is a good passer and actually hit a decent percentage from 3 last season. He's a former star who's evolved into a useful role player as he's lost his athleticism. RAPTOR had him at + 4.7 last season which is really strong. I think he would be a good fit here as a part of our center rotation. I also think Jason Kidd would respect him and play him when he's healthy.
08-07-2023, 02:40 AM
(08-06-2023, 10:55 PM)surfpuckmd Wrote: I suggest Blake Griffin for the Mavericks 15th roster spot. He didn't play a lot of minutes last year for the Celtics but he had a very positive impact when he played. He's become an excellent defensive player and would be a better rebounder than Dwight Powell. He is a good passer and actually hit a decent percentage from 3 last season. He's a former star who's evolved into a useful role player as he's lost his athleticism. RAPTOR had him at + 4.7 last season which is really strong. I think he would be a good fit here as a part of our center rotation. I also think Jason Kidd would respect him and play him when he's healthy. Actually an interesting name I've forgotten about. Problem with Griffin has always been his ability to keep up defensively. He also just might be totally shot health wise. But as a 15th man? He brings an established vet that's a flashy name who can come in for 30-40 games and play 15 mins. That's pretty valuable. Issue is I can't see the Mavs pushing towards the tax line for Griffin. Especially since we've been throwing around multiple variations of the same trades for the same guys and all of them ending with the Mavs barely under the tax line. Got to keep in mind that as long as the Mavs stay under that 165mm number Cubes is going to get a check for around 20+mil. That's not nothing. For what it's worth, some highlights of Griffin last year for Boston:
14x All-Star, 12x all-NBA, 1x MVP, 1x Finals MVP, 1 NBA Championship: Dirk Nowitzki, the man, the myth, the legend.
08-07-2023, 08:35 AM
(08-06-2023, 10:55 PM)surfpuckmd Wrote: I suggest Blake Griffin for the Mavericks 15th roster spot. He didn't play a lot of minutes last year for the Celtics but he had a very positive impact when he played. He's become an excellent defensive player and would be a better rebounder than Dwight Powell. He is a good passer and actually hit a decent percentage from 3 last season. He's a former star who's evolved into a useful role player as he's lost his athleticism. RAPTOR had him at + 4.7 last season which is really strong. I think he would be a good fit here as a part of our center rotation. I also think Jason Kidd would respect him and play him when he's healthy. An interesting thought. The other advanced stats (which I like better than RAPTOR) are not nearly that high on him, but do like his defense. I wonder if that has a little to do with him playing for the Celtics. Sometimes a team has enough good defenders that they can hide a player such that his net rating (and even on/off) looks good even though he is not the reason why. I'm not sure any team was as deep as Boston defensively last season. Personally, I'm still holding out hope for Derrick Jones Jr. If we can get him for the min or a little more (and stay below tax) I think he could be a steal. We would be adding another quality, versatile defender to the rotation who is only 26, and is slowly inching his 3 into respectable territory. I would love to get him on something similar to Dorian's prior contract, which would be significant value if he continues his offensive progress.
08-07-2023, 09:54 AM
(08-07-2023, 08:35 AM)mvossman Wrote: An interesting thought. The other advanced stats (which I like better than RAPTOR) are not nearly that high on him, but do like his defense. I wonder if that has a little to do with him playing for the Celtics. Sometimes a team has enough good defenders that they can hide a player such that his net rating (and even on/off) looks good even though he is not the reason why. I'm not sure any team was as deep as Boston defensively last season. Jones is my preference as well and I suggested him as a good fit even before the start of free agency. I actually think he’s a better player than Grant Williams other than Williams’ outstanding 3-point shooting. I think a 2-year, $10 million dollar deal with the 2nd-year being a team option would be a good value deal. I think he’d be a good rotation player for us. I remain concerned that Cuban’s primary concerns with the Mavericks are financial and that he is not willing to spend the money to be competitive. Jones is too good a fit for the Mavericks otherwise. I think Griffin could be useful too though and he would be cheaper for Cuban…who seems to prefer the cheaper options these days.
08-07-2023, 10:02 AM
(08-07-2023, 09:54 AM)surfpuckmd Wrote: Jones is my preference as well and I suggested him as a good fit even before the start of free agency. I actually think he’s a better player than Grant Williams other than Williams’ outstanding 3-point shooting. I think a 2-year, $10 million dollar deal with the 2nd-year being a team option would be a good value deal. I think he’d be a good rotation player for us. I remain concerned that Cuban’s primary concerns with the Mavericks are financial and that he is not willing to spend the money to be competitive. I'd rather that spot be for grooming a much younger player. We know what DJJ will contribute. which is minimal.
08-07-2023, 11:52 AM
https://twitter.com/BobbyMarks42/status/...7256641536
Is the middle class of the NBA being eliminated?
08-07-2023, 12:48 PM
(08-07-2023, 11:52 AM)HoosierDaddyKid Wrote: https://twitter.com/BobbyMarks42/status/...7256641536 Interesting discussion, but their conclusion is exactly wrong. If you stratify the pay ranges into bigger groups, you see that the "middle class" has actually grown. 0.8% to 4.9% = -4.4% 5.0% to 14.9% = +14.9% 15.0% to 24.9% = +53.9% 25% to 100% = -27.5%
08-07-2023, 01:53 PM
(08-07-2023, 10:02 AM)Ghost of Podkolzin Wrote: I'd rather that spot be for grooming a much younger player. We know what DJJ will contribute. which is minimal. Agree to disagree. He already provides value as a plus defender that doesn't completely kill you on offense, and at 26 he is not necessarily a finished product.
08-07-2023, 02:37 PM
(08-07-2023, 01:53 PM)mvossman Wrote: Agree to disagree. He already provides value as a plus defender that doesn't completely kill you on offense, and at 26 he is not necessarily a finished product. Agree that DJJ is a better option than B.Griffin. Again, I'd rather search for summer league defensive studs without a contract. I was a huge fan of Champagnie last year for this role. Now SAS has a 22yo big wing defender at $3m/yr.
08-07-2023, 03:04 PM
(08-07-2023, 10:02 AM)Ghost of Podkolzin Wrote: I'd rather that spot be for grooming a much younger player. We know what DJJ will contribute. which is minimal. Jones is a really good and versatile defender. Although only 6'5, he's an elite athlete with a 7'0 wingspan and provides some rim protection. He is an elite athlete and would provide another lob threat which is great because Luka is really great at finding lob threats. DJJ is also excellent in transition and would work well in the Kyrie-only minutes where we will run more. I would generally be in favor of another developmental player but the Mavs are in the rare position (for us) of having multiple developmental players on the team already- Lively, OMax, Hardy and even Josh Green. I think we have a number of other question marks on the roster as well. Another solid, proven rotation player should be a priority.
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08-07-2023, 03:06 PM
(08-07-2023, 03:04 PM)surfpuckmd Wrote: Jones is a really good and versatile defender. Although only 6'5, he's an elite athlete with a 7'0 wingspan and provides some rim protection. He is an elite athlete and would provide another lob threat which is great because Luka is really great at finding lob threats. DJJ is also excellent in transition and would work well in the Kyrie-only minutes where we will run more. Good points. I wouldn't dislike it.
08-07-2023, 05:11 PM
The issue with DJJ is price vs production.
He's already been in the league 7 years. We have a fairly reliable picture of who he will be -- some good defense, but almost no offense. He's a bit bigger version of Franky Smokes. He's already been signed on the "maybe we can get more out of him" plan, more than once, and it looks like what you already see is what you get. He's a 8th-9th man or so. I think he's waiting for an offer up around 9-10M. Last year he played for about 3, but he wants more money and a bigger role. He makes sense at the minimum, and probably not much more. So he sits.
08-07-2023, 05:53 PM
If the following trade went down, what else would Dallas have to add and who would get it?
PJ Washington to Cleveland THJ to Charlotte Allen to Dallas
08-07-2023, 05:59 PM
(08-07-2023, 05:53 PM)DanSchwartzgan Wrote: If the following trade went down, what else would Dallas have to add and who would get it? I saw that fakeout, too. Green or Hardy would be gone, imo, probably to Charlotte. Might have to send a sweetener to Cleveland, too. It’s not enough for the ‘27, I don’t think. Doesn’t feel realistic, especially since I don’t think Dallas can do without THJ AND either Green or Hardy. |
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