(07-13-2021, 03:05 PM)mvossman Wrote: I agree with all of this until the conclusion.  You are not paying Collins a max contract because of his defense.  You could plug DFS or Maxi in the same spot and get roughly the same defense (in some cases better).  

I have stated that if KP's mobility is lost for good, then he has to go.  But you don't need to spend 45 mil to improve on his defense.

(07-13-2021, 03:55 PM)KillerLeft Wrote: However, what I feel like I have learned throughout this KP saga is that even the most offensive-minded center MUST at least be better than average on defense for the team to win. 

This isn’t a perfect analogy, but my mind kind of goes to the idea that if the best offensive player in major-league baseball happened to be a short stop, his team should be OK with overlooking the fact that he is the worst defensive shortstop and the leak. No matter how many home runs that guy cranks, he’s still going to hurt the team more than he helps, imo. You’re even worse off in basketball, because that shortstop can be moved to a different position, probably, whereas it seems clear to me that Porzingis cannot play any other position in the modern NBA.

I think it’s possible to build a good team defense in the NBA if one of your guards and one of your forwards is defensively challenged. But, after living through this KP thing I am more convinced than ever that if your center can’t play defense, your team is not going to be very good defensively.

(07-13-2021, 04:20 PM)Okstate819 Wrote: Your paying Collins a max because he can do both. You go get Holmes cause he can do both. (Each guy will also be even better offensively with Luka IMO)

The list of 4 or 5 who can be on the floor in crunch time and not be a liability on either end of the floor is extremely small. If you believe that’s what your getting, it’s not an overpay for either guy.

(07-13-2021, 03:55 PM)KillerLeft Wrote: I totally agree with this statement, as well as the rest of the ensuing paragraph. 

However, what I feel like I have learned throughout this KP saga is that even the most offensive-minded center MUST at least be better than average on defense for the team to win. 

This isn’t a perfect analogy, but my mind kind of goes to the idea that if the best offensive player in major-league baseball happened to be a short stop, his team should be OK with overlooking the fact that he is the worst defensive shortstop and the leak. No matter how many home runs that guy cranks, he’s still going to hurt the team more than he helps, imo. You’re even worse off in basketball, because that shortstop can be moved to a different position, probably, whereas it seems clear to me that Porzingis cannot play any other position in the modern NBA.

I think it’s possible to build a good team defense in the NBA if one of your guards and one of your forwards is defensively challenged. But, after living through this KP thing I am more convinced than ever that if your center can’t play defense, your team is not going to be very good defensively.

(07-13-2021, 04:43 PM)VintagePejav2 Wrote: There are also the political consequences involved in benching a max contract center during meaningful stretches of a playoff series.

(07-13-2021, 02:59 PM)Scott41theMavs Wrote: That's a great principle to have. Thing is, with this free agent class, the only great wing available is Kawhi (maybe), who is a pipe dream, and the only great guards available are Ball (whom many here are leery of money-whipping, for whatever reason) and 2 or 3 dudes who need a cane. Oh, and Dennis Schroeder, whom I want no part of. 

If you don't want Ball and can't get Kawhi, then Collins is likely our best-case scenario for offseason. In free agency, that is. Perhaps we should be thinking entirely in terms of trades. We just don't have a lot of great assets for that (everyone knows that what I really want is Brogdon, but given RC and our lack of assets, that's going to be a tough get). That's one of the reasons I like the idea of trading KP for White or Murray, thus clearing a bunch of cap space, and then getting all four of Portis, Jackson, Tucker, and Payne, and signing the best center possible for the rMLE. Then you've stocked up on a lot of tradeable assets. You haven't really punted on the year because that's a decent enough team around Luka (who, after all, has established himself as a one-man wrecking crew) to have a shot at the second round or better, and can improve through trade (or clearing cap room by shedding tradeable guys) next summer.

All that said, I still think Collins is the best-case scenario because the Mavs used their best asset - cap space - to *improve their team,* something they notably haven't done the past two offseasons. Improvement of the talent base is huge this offseason. I am also hoping that Kidd and Sweeney can coach up Green, Terry, Bey, and Hinton into rotation players and/or tradeable assets. That would be huge, no?

(07-13-2021, 04:59 PM)jesusshuttlesworth82 Wrote: I like Collins.  I like Holmes.  I don't like the idea of paying above market rate for 2 bigs.  It's that simple.  The game is going away from two bigs seeing significant minutes in crunch time in the playoffs.  I suspect that's why Atlanta would be getting rid of Collins.  If he can't play significant minutes as a small ball center, I am probably out on him too.

We need more shooting and in this scenario, we're getting SIGNIFICANTLY worse in that department.  Replacing KP and THJ with Holmes and Murray.  That's a disaster when DFS and Dejounte Murray are the two shooters you've surrounded Luka with in the starting/closing lineup.

edit:  I just realized I used significant 3 times in 4 sentences 

(07-13-2021, 01:34 PM)mvossman Wrote: Well, to use a Kammrath response, I 100% disagree.

Last season, they were the number 1 offense with the front court pairing of KP (much maligned) and Powell (also much maligned).  They had the following lineup data:

KP/Powell/DFS/Luka/THJ  120 off  +11 net  (this was the most used starting lineup)
KP/Powell/Luka                118 off  +8 net

This season, after guys recovered from injury they went with KP/Maxi for a 5 out lineup:

KP/Maxi/DFS/Luka/JRich  124 off  +13 net (this was the most used starting lineup, and included the hated JRich!)
KP/Maxi/Luka                  123 off +12 net

These are elite numbers with a frontcourt people don't want on the team anymore.

There is nothing in these number to suggest Luka needs an elite frontcourt in order to excel on offense.  There is also not anything to suggest he needs a rim runner (actually the numbers suggest he might be even more effective with 5 out).

Watching that Clippers series, what stood out was Luka getting worn down by the 4th quarter, the other 4 starters struggling to take advantage of 4 on 3 when Luka was doubled, and the bench generally sucking when Luka was not on the court.  Luka was completely dominating in 5 out (before the silly zone) with his newly developed mid range game.  Not once did I think, "if only he had an elite rim runner right now".

This teams biggest issue is clearly defense, and that could mean replacing KP with a rim protecting, rim running big (Holmes).  But the biggest need offensively is somebody to help relieve some pressure off Luka, and certainly not a second rim runner in the starting lineup.

(07-13-2021, 06:25 PM)Okstate819 Wrote: Respect this take regarding bigs. Watching these playoffs though, I think we might be seeing a flip in thinking regarding value of certain bigs. The guys who CAN stay on the floor during crunch time are some of the most valuable players in the league. If we had Collins/Holmes against the clips and they go small we would’ve punished them on the inside while also having enough length and athleticism to defend at a higher level than we did. If they are then forced to keep Zubac on the floor… Luka just torched him again.

(07-12-2021, 11:31 PM)KillerLeft Wrote: People say this often, and I might be really stupid, but I feel like the exact opposite is proven true almost every year.

They have been trying to trade Kevin love for years. Look at the extent every team goes through just to unload Russell Westbrook. There are other examples, and I suppose it depends on what you mean by “untradable.”

Judging by the mess the Mavs are in right now with Porzingis, I’d say it’s at least much easier to build a team by avoiding overpaid, underperforming players. Sure, you can always move them, but not often in a way that makes you better.

(07-13-2021, 06:55 PM)Jakeospikez Wrote: Can't only use regular season statistics. Need to consider what happens to the effectiveness of lineups when in a 7 game series and the opposing team starts micromanaging their counters. Clippers see that 5 out lineup and play Batum at the 5 and have Kawhi + PG already. Lineup can't punish that at all since the roster has no counters for their counter other than a hail mary with Boban. Ty Lue already called it mid-series, just said, yeah they're gonna go to Boban. (and in his mind, he already knew he didn't care)

(07-13-2021, 07:14 PM)cjeter24 Wrote: I like Otto Porter depending on the price.

He's a solid defender and shooter when healthy... So a gamble on his health is ok... At the right price. Not sure what that price is tho

(07-13-2021, 07:13 PM)mvossman Wrote: My argument was that Luka does not need special unique frontcourt players for offense.  You are making a defensive argument.  There is no question that KP was bad defensively and that if he can't get back to what he was prior to this season he needs to go, and he may need to go regardless.  But you replace him with Holmes for half the price and you don't have these issues.  No need to add Collins to the ledger.

As for the offense in the playoffs, the starting lineup (which replaced JRich with THJ) was 126 off with a +10.  That group was not the problem.