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2020-2021 ROSTER TALK: Archived - Printable Version

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RE: ROSTER TALK: DAL with $22.7M - $34.4M in capspace | FA starts Aug 2, 5 pm - dirkfansince1998 - 07-01-2021

(07-01-2021, 01:45 PM)KillerLeft Wrote: Regarding Kleber:

He has been hurt pretty much all year, and several people have gone out of their way to point this out. Here's how I think that factors into the conversation:

His defense has NOT been great this season, and I'm not only talking about the Clippers series. 

You can say "that's because he's been banged up" and that's valid. 

Alternatively, you can say "I'm skeptical that he has what it takes to hold up at his top, useful level for an entire season" and that also has validity. 

What we have to stop doing, imo, is saying "Kleber was a great defender this season" because he so, so, so was not. Regardless of what you, personally, might expect from Kleber in the future, based on projections of what a healthy Kleber might look like, the version the Mavs had this past season wasn't really the indispensable difference maker people claim. 

I think there are similar distinctions to make with Porzingis, Richardson and Powell. All of them might be better next year, but I hope the Mavs are being as realistic as possible and at least considering the idea that they won't be.


I am in the pro Kleber camp. He ranked among the top three in on court and on/off rating  for most of the season. Tanked his +/- numbers in the last 20 games. Was in and out of the rotation. Missed games and looked really bad when he played. Despite the steady decline at the end of the season the Mavs defense was 3.1pts better with him on the floor. Overall he was one of the better defenders on a bad defensive team.
The Mavs asked him to do the impossible. Cover a lot of ground and compensate for KPs lack of mobility. Guard the best opposing big...sometimes even wing. That shouldn´t be his role. Maybe one of those tasks but not all of them. Kleber was the only big that worked next to KP and him not being able to play his usual role was one of the reasons for some of the crazy lineups in the Clippers series.

RE: ROSTER TALK: DAL with $22.7M - $34.4M in capspace | FA starts Aug 2, 5 pm - KillerLeft - 07-01-2021

(07-01-2021, 02:03 PM)dirkfansince1998 Wrote: I am in the pro Kleber camp. He ranked among the top three in on court and on/off rating  for most of the season. Tanked his +/- numbers in the last 20 games. Was in and out of the rotation. Missed games and looked really bad when he played. Despite the steady decline at the end of the season the Mavs defense was 3.1pts better with him on the floor. Overall he was one of the better defenders on a bad defensive team.
The Mavs asked him to do the impossible. Cover a lot of ground and compensate for KPs lack of mobility. Guard the best opposing big...sometimes even wing. That shouldn´t be his role. Maybe one of those tasks but not all of them. Kleber was the only big that worked next to KP and him not being able to play his usual role was one of the reasons for some of the crazy lineups in the Clippers series.


Yeah, I don't disagree with any particular point here, or with those who have a favorable bird's eye view of the Kleber situation. I'm just advocating for a more constantly updating version of "group think" around here. 

I still like Kleber, and I totally wouldn't throw him in the trash, especially while he's on that dope contract. Just saying that at this point I'm willing to concede that losing him (in the right deal) wouldn't be the end of the world. 

I have been resistant to the idea of moving some of these core guys for a while, but in light of these new changes I'm ok with a little more turnover (if it's productive) while the decision makers are turning over. Continuity is likely to mean less next year than it has for quite a while, and less than it will for the several seasons after that, too.

RE: ROSTER TALK: DAL with $22.7M - $34.4M in capspace | FA starts Aug 2, 5 pm - Scott41theMavs - 07-01-2021

(07-01-2021, 01:45 PM)KillerLeft Wrote: Regarding Kleber:

He has been hurt pretty much all year, and several people have gone out of their way to point this out. Here's how I think that factors into the conversation:

His defense has NOT been great this season, and I'm not only talking about the Clippers series. 

You can say "that's because he's been banged up" and that's valid. 

Alternatively, you can say "I'm skeptical that he has what it takes to hold up at his top, useful level for an entire season" and that also has validity. 

What we have to stop doing, imo, is saying "Kleber was a great defender this season" because he so, so, so was not. Regardless of what you, personally, might expect from Kleber in the future, based on projections of what a healthy Kleber might look like, the version the Mavs had this past season wasn't really the indispensable difference maker people claim. 

I think there are similar distinctions to make with Porzingis, Richardson and Powell. All of them might be better next year, but I hope the Mavs are being as realistic as possible and at least considering the idea that they won't be.

The point has been made many times that Maxi was sick as a dog with Covid for a long time. 

I think any defensive evaluation ought to be looking at prior seasons, not this one. That may be true even of JRich - Kamm himself made the point that JRich didn't look that bad at the start of the season. It was after being out with Covid that his play was bad.

RE: ROSTER TALK: DAL with $22.7M - $34.4M in capspace | FA starts Aug 2, 5 pm - cjeter24 - 07-01-2021

I'm completely fine if we go after Kawhi and we miss out on most of the FA class. I'm not overly excited to go out and pay anyone big money deals this year with the exception of maybe Powell and I'm not overpaying to pry him from Portland. 

I'd be interested in a Lowry/Conley 1+1 big money deal. 

I think there's probably some pretty good value to be had with MLE level guys so you can work that simultaneously a bit too. Maybe you only have room but if Kawhi leaves they probably would be willing to do SNT. 

My biggest fear right now is overpaying guys and locking into a mediocre roster. That's what you get if you go out and pay guys like Derozan big money. (shoutout to SBJ). 

I'm all about working the trade angles and signing guys with good value that may be able to be flipped later. That's what we did with Curry although we missed on that deal. We don't have draft picks or alot of assets and we need legit starters and it's a very weak FA class. 

I'm in the minority tho that thinks we aren't remotely close to good enough with our roster right now and that we need a major overhaul. I keep hearing we aren't that far off. I think we are very far off at this point.

RE: ROSTER TALK: DAL with $22.7M - $34.4M in capspace | FA starts Aug 2, 5 pm - SkenfromLMF - 07-01-2021

I think the view on Maxi has to be balanced.

Maxi is certainly available for the right deal, but it had best be used in a homerun type talent upgrade.
What we can't afford is to trade Maxi like we did Curry in an attempt at a minimal upgrade and end up making a lateral (if not slightly backward) move.

Richardson + Powell and a project for Buddy Hield; Maxi instead of Powell ends up being Curry and Maxi for BH and I do not think that is good asset management

RE: ROSTER TALK: DAL with $22.7M - $34.4M in capspace | FA starts Aug 2, 5 pm - Chicagojk - 07-01-2021

Looks like Cuban was in Philadelphia today and stopped by the Villanova campus where Jalen has been working out.

https://www.instagram.com/p/CQzekDRJx0-/

RE: ROSTER TALK: DAL with $22.7M - $34.4M in capspace | FA starts Aug 2, 5 pm - Jym - 07-01-2021

(07-01-2021, 07:18 PM)cjeter24 Wrote: My biggest fear right now is overpaying guys and locking into a mediocre roster. That's what you get if you go out and pay guys like Derozan big money. (shoutout to SBJ). 


Yeah I'm not the biggest fan of Derozan's fit but gotta say I tend to disagree with that first sentence 
A lot of people here have been saying that for a couple seasons now and I think there's a strong argument to be made that we'd be going to the Finals right now if we maximized our spending on whatever upgrades we could get 
That's really all we needed to compete. Was some upgrades and a deeper team

RE: ROSTER TALK: DAL with $22.7M - $34.4M in capspace | FA starts Aug 2, 5 pm - DanSchwartzgan - 07-02-2021

(07-01-2021, 02:03 PM)dirkfansince1998 Wrote: I am in the pro Kleber camp. He ranked among the top three in on court and on/off rating  for most of the season. Tanked his +/- numbers in the last 20 games. Was in and out of the rotation. Missed games and looked really bad when he played. Despite the steady decline at the end of the season the Mavs defense was 3.1pts better with him on the floor. Overall he was one of the better defenders on a bad defensive team.
The Mavs asked him to do the impossible. Cover a lot of ground and compensate for KPs lack of mobility. Guard the best opposing big...sometimes even wing. That shouldn´t be his role. Maybe one of those tasks but not all of them. Kleber was the only big that worked next to KP and him not being able to play his usual role was one of the reasons for some of the crazy lineups in the Clippers series.


It is a complement to Kleber that he ends up in a lot of trade proposals.  It happens because people perceive he has value and is an easy fit on a lot of teams.  I like Powell, but no one puts him in realistic deals that have any kind of return.  How Maxi gets used going forward is probably a product of whether KP stays or not.  Outside of max superstars, it is hard to find a PF or C that makes the version of KP we saw last season work.  Maxi made it work...even last years version of Maxi.

I like to look at last season as starting 2/1/21.  It isn't perfect, but the month or so prior to that was just a mess.  In that time frame Maxi is by far the best two man pairing with KP at a net rating of 8.1 (and this is bad Maxi and nothing special KP).  DFS is the next closet at 4.7.  If we move to three man pairings with KP and Luka, once again Maxi is far and away the best Mav to add to the mix at a net rating of 11.7.  In four man lineups, the best fits with Luka and KP are those two with Maxi and DFS at 12.8 followed by those two with Maxi and JRich at 12.1.  BTW, Maxi is the second best two man fit with Luka at 6.1.  DFS is close behind in third at 5.2 and Brunson is actually the best at 9.0

We all said it time and again.  Our starting unit was quite productive...obviously flawed but one of the best in the league.   The KP, Luka, Maxi, DFS and JRich lineup was a plus 12.6 after 2/1/21.  We only saw THJ with Luka, KP, Maxi and DFS for 22 regular season minutes (+10).  But in 77 playoff minutes those five were also +10.  One of our issues is that our bench is so shallow that we don't get to play our starters (whether that includes THJ or JRich) together very much.  Once we had to go to KP w/o Luka lineups and Luka w/o KP lineups, things didn't work as well.  The THJ/KP lineups were especially bad.  

We have the beginnings of a good bench, but KP and THJ can't create their own shot.  Replacing THJ/JRich in the starting lineup with a shot creator like Conley (my favorite), DeRozan or Lowry would make KP, Maxi, DFS and Luka crazy good.  But, it would also go a long way evening out the discrepancies in the performance of various bench lineups AND allow the starters to play together more.  Additionally, on a team with Willie Cauley-Powell playing backup C, we have to have another option at PF that looks and smells a lot like Maxi.  It would be nice if that guy could also be a small ball center or better yet, good enough to move Maxi to the bench.  Thus, we get the pursuit of a player like Collins.  If you find a way to get Conley (or Ball, Lowry, DeRozan), then you are looking a less expensive options at PF.  If you can somehow land Collins, then you probably aren't going to find a starting level shot creator (again, this is all predicated on the idea that KP is staying).  My favorite version of that is Conley as the THJ/JRich replacement and then finding the money for someone in the Batum, T Young, Gay OPJ or Theis range.  If I'm forced to drop down to Lowry/DeRozan because Conley won't come here...Fine.  Just don't overpay the Schroder's and Reggie Jackson's of the world.

RE: ROSTER TALK: DAL with $22.7M - $34.4M in capspace | FA starts Aug 2, 5 pm - Scott41theMavs - 07-02-2021

(07-02-2021, 09:28 AM)DanSchwartzgan Wrote: Just don't overpay the Schroder's and Reggie Jackson's of the world.

Good post (as always...) up to this point, but on the one hand I want no part of Schroder, and on the other, I have no problem whatsoever with giving Jackson a $13 mil per deal after his playoff performance, which of course prices out the Clipps if they keep Kawhi.

RE: ROSTER TALK: DAL with $22.7M - $34.4M in capspace | FA starts Aug 2, 5 pm - Branduil - 07-02-2021

The Mavs have been playing and losing the superstar game for a decade. I'm not saying DON'T play it, but they've clearly been playing it wrong. If Kawhi makes it clear he wants to come here, great, but don't wait around for him to not choose us. If he's gonna play that game we need to go after other players. Guys like Collins, Reggie Jackson, Conley, etc., may not be as good as Kawhi but they could be good enough.

RE: ROSTER TALK: DAL with $22.7M - $34.4M in capspace | FA starts Aug 2, 5 pm - Scott41theMavs - 07-02-2021

(07-02-2021, 09:53 AM)Branduil Wrote: The Mavs have been playing and losing the superstar game for a decade. I'm not saying DON'T play it, but they've clearly been playing it wrong. If Kawhi makes it clear he wants to come here, great, but don't wait around for him to not choose us. If he's gonna play that game we need to go after other players. Guys like Collins, Reggie Jackson, Conley, etc., may not be as good as Kawhi but they could be good enough.

That's my mantra on all available players - don't wait on *anyone* - to make up their mind, for an offer sheet to get matched, none of that.

RE: ROSTER TALK: DAL with $22.7M - $34.4M in capspace | FA starts Aug 2, 5 pm - dirkfansince1998 - 07-02-2021

(07-02-2021, 09:36 AM)Scott41theMavs Wrote: Good post (as always...) up to this point, but on the one hand I want no part of Schroder, and on the other, I have no problem whatsoever with giving Jackson a $13 mil per deal after his playoff performance, which of course prices out the Clipps if they keep Kawhi.

Isn´t that exactly what Atlanta did? Hawks added Gallinari, Bogdanovic and Rondo. Turned Rondo into LouWill and a pick. Now they are in the ECFs.
Let´s say the Mavs sign a quality starter (maybe overpay a little bit) instead of chasing the big names in the last three offseasons. Would they be in the WCFs?

RE: ROSTER TALK: DAL with $22.7M - $34.4M in capspace | FA starts Aug 2, 5 pm - Branduil - 07-02-2021

https://twitter.com/JDumasReports/status/1410976218740973568

Boy are the Sixers dumb not to jump on that deal. Anyway, it sounds like Brogdon is available, so the Mavs really need to see if there's a way for us to trade for him.

RE: ROSTER TALK: DAL with $22.7M - $34.4M in capspace | FA starts Aug 2, 5 pm - DanSchwartzgan - 07-02-2021

(07-02-2021, 09:36 AM)Scott41theMavs Wrote: Good post (as always...) up to this point, but on the one hand I want no part of Schroder, and on the other, I have no problem whatsoever with giving Jackson a $13 mil per deal after his playoff performance, which of course prices out the Clipps if they keep Kawhi.

I don't think that is an overpay.  The question you end up with if you use cap space on a guard is which front court player do you go after?

I'm with you and Branduil.  I don't want to wait on anyone.  I want two Woj Bombs saying we got the two players we targeted within minutes of the opening of free agency.

RE: ROSTER TALK: DAL with $22.7M - $34.4M in capspace | FA starts Aug 2, 5 pm - Branduil - 07-02-2021

I wonder if the Pacers would be interested in a THJ-for-Brogdon swap. Obviously THJ and Carlisle had a pretty good working relationship, and it's clear RC highly values THJ's shooting ability in his lineups.

Making that trade would still allow us to go after someone like Collins, and if we could do something like a Maxi+JRich+Brunson trade we could stay over the cap and still have the MLE+BAE.

Luka / ??? / Terry
Brogdon / Burke
DFS / Green
Collins / ??? / Bey
KP / WCS / Powell

RE: ROSTER TALK: DAL with $22.7M - $34.4M in capspace | FA starts Aug 2, 5 pm - ItsGoTime - 07-02-2021

(07-02-2021, 09:28 AM)DanSchwartzgan Wrote: We have the beginnings of a good bench
Awesome post! I just think we have an AMAZING bench, the problem is 2-3 of our great bench players are starting. If we can get 2 starters to push at least Maxi and THJ to the bench without losing them, I think we’re a HCA playoff team. We could become a dark horse contender depending on how good those replacements are.


Thing is, like Branduil and Scott are saying, while tampering, if they waffle, move on to the next best target and so on til you have your guy(s) before the moratorium is lifted.

RE: ROSTER TALK: DAL with $22.7M - $34.4M in capspace | FA starts Aug 2, 5 pm - SleepingHero - 07-02-2021

(07-02-2021, 09:36 AM)Scott41theMavs Wrote: Good post (as always...) up to this point, but on the one hand I want no part of Schroder, and on the other, I have no problem whatsoever with giving Jackson a $13 mil per deal after his playoff performance, which of course prices out the Clipps if they keep Kawhi.


These are pretty much my sentiments as well. Schroeder is a headcase. He's always been.

Jackson was once an inefficient headcase as well, but he's become quietly one of the best iso-scorers in the league, and had a breakout playoffs. Having him as a 6th man/secondary creator would be great next to Luka.

RE: ROSTER TALK: DAL with $22.7M - $34.4M in capspace | FA starts Aug 2, 5 pm - ItsGoTime - 07-02-2021

(07-02-2021, 10:28 AM)Branduil Wrote: I wonder if the Pacers would be interested in a THJ-for-Brogdon swap. Obviously THJ and Carlisle had a pretty good working relationship, and it's clear RC highly values THJ's shooting ability in his lineups.

Making that trade would still allow us to go after someone like Collins, and if we could do something like a Maxi+JRich+Brunson trade we could stay over the cap and still have the MLE+BAE.

Luka / ??? / Terry
Brogdon / Burke
DFS / Green
Collins / ??? / Bey
KP / WCS / Powell
So, the one thing we can take from that tweet is that Ind is looking for a high quality player in return for Brogdon. I don’t think THJ moves that needle enough for them. Brunson and THJ might be enough aggregated value if they are not looking for the best player in the trade. I think RC likes JB as well. Problem for them would be, who is the distributor on that team?

RE: ROSTER TALK: DAL with $22.7M - $34.4M in capspace | FA starts Aug 2, 5 pm - StrandedOnBeauboisHill - 07-02-2021

(07-02-2021, 10:13 AM)Branduil Wrote: https://twitter.com/JDumasReports/status/1410976218740973568

Boy are the Sixers dumb not to jump on that deal. Anyway, it sounds like Brogdon is available, so the Mavs really need to see if there's a way for us to trade for him.

Wonder if this was pre or post Carlisle going there.  Also wonder if Carlisle would be willing to help Dallas out or if it's a hard no (assuming he has some say in those moves that is).

RE: ROSTER TALK: DAL with $22.7M - $34.4M in capspace | FA starts Aug 2, 5 pm - Branduil - 07-02-2021

(07-02-2021, 10:45 AM)ItsGoTime Wrote: So, the one thing we can take from that tweet is that Ind is looking for a high quality player in return for Brogdon. I don’t think THJ moves that needle enough for them. Brunson and THJ might be enough aggregated value if they are not looking for the best player in the trade. I think RC likes JB as well. Problem for them would be, who is the distributor on that team?
I guess that depends on how much of a high-quality player you think Ben Simmons is.