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+--- Thread: 2020-2021 ROSTER TALK: Archived (/showthread.php?tid=682)
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RE: ROSTER TALK: DAL with $22.7M - $34.4M in capspace | FA starts Aug 2, 5 pm - SleepingHero - 06-24-2021
(06-24-2021, 01:11 AM)dirkfansince1998 Wrote: Expiring 12m vs 3 years 101m.
Cuban cannot use cap space properly and powder doesn't produce on the court. KP is by far and away the best player in that trade by a mile and we'd be gifting a competitor him for 2 guys that don't matter and 1 guy who is objectively worse than him.
RE: ROSTER TALK: DAL with $22.7M - $34.4M in capspace | FA starts Aug 2, 5 pm - dirkfansince1998 - 06-24-2021
(06-24-2021, 01:36 AM)SleepingHero Wrote: Cuban cannot use cap space properly and powder doesn't produce on the court. KP is by far and away the best player in that trade by a mile and we'd be gifting a competitor him for 2 guys that don't matter and 1 guy who is objectively worse than him.
Far and away better at what? Basketball. I guess the 10 game sample size of bubble KP is better than everything I have ever seen from Nurkic but overall it is close. Both cannot defend in space but at least Nurkic can control the paint (rebound, defend the post). If KP remembers that he used to be a good rim protector he is back in the conversation. On offense KP has a big advantage because he can space the floor but Nurkic makes up for it with his superior screens and playmaking ability.
It´s not like Nurkic is some kind of scrub. In his last healthy season he averagef 16/10/3 in 27 minutes. 23.4 PER, +3.7 BPM (both better than KPs career highs). 2nd best +/- and on/off numbers behind Lillard.
RE: ROSTER TALK: DAL with $22.7M - $34.4M in capspace | FA starts Aug 2, 5 pm - Scott41theMavs - 06-24-2021
(06-24-2021, 01:36 AM)SleepingHero Wrote: powder doesn't produce on the court.
Neither does KP, and the Mavs don't owe powder over $100 million.
RE: ROSTER TALK: DAL with $22.7M - $34.4M in capspace | FA starts Aug 2, 5 pm - Branduil - 06-24-2021
Along the same lines, the Mavs could trade KP+Burke to the Pelicans for Adams+Bledsoe+2023 Lakers pick. Similar money this year, but Bledsoe's final year isn't guaranteed and Adams would become a big expiring next year. And of course the Lakers pick means we could package picks again in a future trade.
I could see the Pelicans actually doing this given the Zion noise and KP being one of the best potential fits with him.
RE: ROSTER TALK: DAL with $22.7M - $34.4M in capspace | FA starts Aug 2, 5 pm - Mavs2021 - 06-24-2021
(06-23-2021, 11:28 PM)mvossman Wrote: That is really not a good reason for them to do that trade. KP does not really fit what they need and they can dump Nurkic easily. Not sure why the would want to take on KP and can't imagine they would give up an unprotected first on top of everything else.
Cause if you go ALL-IN, while and which retaining McCollum would be, you have to try and get the best POTENTIAL player you can. Of course I think they could get a decent return for Nurkic like a FRP or/and a fallen angel prospect or two decent roleplayers. But you want to win the championships NOW, you have to get the best player available.
If you look at the PF/C that averaged more than 15 PPG last season, this is the list
PF
Giannis, Zion, Durant, Davis, Randle, Siakam, Sabonis, Wood, Harris
C
Embiid, Jokic, Towns, Porzingis, Vucevic, Adebayo, Valanciunas, Capela
Valanciunas probably makes more sense than Porzingis or even taking a chance on somebody like Myles Turner, but it just doesn´t come with the same UPSIDE factor as Porzingis.
Guess it also depends how much pressure Lillard applies and how much be believes that a coaching change matters to improve results.
The desperate Bulls gave up two 1st round picks and a top 10 pick prospect in WCJ for Vucevic.
RE: ROSTER TALK: DAL with $22.7M - $34.4M in capspace | FA starts Aug 2, 5 pm - omahen - 06-24-2021
Since we know Cuban will be the big boss we can start assuming what offseason will look like. Based on historical lessons learns there are two main driving forces regarding free agency:
- we love our boys in blue and
- we love stars.
Mavs have shown extremely little creativity in the past so I don't think both are an option. My prediction: Mavs will resign THJ for a hefty contract (because only so so stars are available and likely most of them don't want to come to Dallas) and announce it as a great victory. You know - "Pachulia is the best center" style (after the one they really went after showed them a middle finger).
In the last years Mavs were quick at pulling the trigger to clean up mistakes, not trying to make them work. Barnes, Matthews, Jordan, Wright to name most recent ones. Never had a problem losing assets along the way. So I wouldn't be surprised KP and JRich (if he opts in) get dumped for trash. I am extremely pessimistic Mavs will come better after the offseason.
RE: ROSTER TALK: DAL with $22.7M - $34.4M in capspace | FA starts Aug 2, 5 pm - Chicagojk - 06-24-2021
(06-24-2021, 04:55 AM)omahen Wrote: Since we know Cuban will be the big boss we can start assuming what offseason will look like. Based on historical lessons learns there are two main driving forces regarding free agency:
- we love our boys in blue and
- we love stars.
Mavs have shown extremely little creativity in the past so I don't think both are an option. My prediction: Mavs will resign THJ for a hefty contract (because only so so stars are available and likely most of them don't want to come to Dallas) and announce it as a great victory. You know - "Pachulia is the best center" style (after the one they really went after showed them a middle finger).
In the last years Mavs were quick at pulling the trigger to clean up mistakes, not trying to make them work. Barnes, Matthews, Jordan, Wright to name most recent ones. Never had a problem losing assets along the way. So I wouldn't be surprised KP and JRich (if he opts in) get dumped for trash. I am extremely pessimistic Mavs will come better after the offseason.
I am pretty pessimistic right now too. The Mavs are a few key moves to really changing their future outcomes, but they have dropped the ball so many times the last few years that it is tough to get excited. I want to see some hope. If they keep mostly the same structure this offseason with the front office, my optimism will drop further.
I can see a few landminds:
1) Dallas offseason plan is so complicated with so many different directions that it will lead to more confusion and disappointment. I want a clear plan that is executed to perfection. I know that is hard because you have 30 other teams, different agents, different needs, etc. But I want a clear plan and not 100 different ways to get to a winnable spot.
2) Other teams are going to smell desperation. If Cuban is the one negotiating, it is going to prime for severe overpay. It may even be hard for a first time president too.
3) Mavs will think they are smarter than everyone and will go into discussions with some weird analytics tool that they think it is an advantage. Only we find out in time it was not an advantage.
I want to think big this offseason. But I also want them to be able to deliver their plan.
RE: ROSTER TALK: DAL with $22.7M - $34.4M in capspace | FA starts Aug 2, 5 pm - DanSchwartzgan - 06-24-2021
(06-23-2021, 07:25 PM)Mavs2021 Wrote: Building on the report that there will not be a McCollum trade. I think it increases our chances of a trade centered around Nurkic and Porzingis.
Nurkic + Jones + Little + Blazers 2023 1st round pick. Added a pick, since it now seems the Blazers are committed to go ALL-IN.
We gain full cap flexibility for 2022.
We can trade all our future picks, cause we own a 2023 pick again.
We get a 26 year old starting center.
Sign Markkanen.
I think there is a lot to like about this. I struggle to see it for Portland and I doubt we'd get a 23 unprotected pick (though I'm glad to see people thinking this way more and more).
Philosophically, if my center is going to get run off the court in the playoffs, I'd rather him not be making $30 million. Yet, you have to have at least one big body guy to check the few remaining big body guys in the league. Jones is a salary dump as he was little more than a $10mm version of Wes Iwundu in Portland. Another guy who looked better in Miami. I might do this soon so that I could aggregate expiring Jones and expiring JRich for someone making about $25mm while we are still in August. In a few years, we might call ths the Naz Little trade. He's got good 3&D potential. He's got a good NBA body for a wing defender and his shot looks good to me. He hit .378% of his 3's after the all-star break.
The way you've done this, there is $30mm in space if JRich opts in and you let Willie go (given Nurkic's injury history, you might want to bring Willie back with the rMLE). I kind of like Markkanen and Maxi handling duties at the four offensively. But you still have the same defensive issues with LM, Luka and THJ starting. Also, whether you keep THJ or do something like you suggested with Philly, there really isn't anyone else who can create their own shot.
Moving on from the spacing KP creates to someone like Nurkic forces you to employ shooters at every other position. DeRozan might make sense as someone who can create for himself and others, but now you have two non-spacers between DeRozan and Nurkic and two non-defenders between DeRozan and Markkanen. Keeping THJ helps with the spacing, but not the D. Maybe Markkanen isn't the answer and you go for someone like Batum who can defend and hit a three.
Luka/Brunson (Terry)
THJ/Green (JRich)
DFS/Little (Jones)
Batum/Maxi (Bey)
Nurkic/Powell (WCS)
RE: ROSTER TALK: DAL with $22.7M - $34.4M in capspace | FA starts Aug 2, 5 pm - DanSchwartzgan - 06-24-2021
(06-24-2021, 03:51 AM)Mavs2021 Wrote: If you look at the PF/C that averaged more than 15 PPG last season, this is the list
PF
Giannis, Zion, Durant, Davis, Randle, Siakam, Sabonis, Wood, Harris
C
Embiid, Jokic, Towns, Porzingis, Vucevic, Adebayo, Valanciunas, Capela
The desperate Bulls gave up two 1st round picks and a top 10 pick prospect in WCJ for Vucevic.
You raise two interesting questions. How would you compare Vuc. (and having to eat one more year of Aminu) to KP?
Second, if big man O is so rare, why not just keep KP and work on improving the D and shot creation around him? BTW, Collins makes the list also. Philly and Atlanta have a guy scoring 15 a game at each position. Porter Jr. scored 19 a game, so Denver has two also.
RE: ROSTER TALK: DAL with $22.7M - $34.4M in capspace | FA starts Aug 2, 5 pm - StepBackJay - 06-24-2021
(06-24-2021, 03:30 AM)Branduil Wrote: Along the same lines, the Mavs could trade KP+Burke to the Pelicans for Adams+Bledsoe+2023 Lakers pick. Similar money this year, but Bledsoe's final year isn't guaranteed and Adams would become a big expiring next year. And of course the Lakers pick means we could package picks again in a future trade.
I could see the Pelicans actually doing this given the Zion noise and KP being one of the best potential fits with him.
Ya I would love that deal. I do wonder if they would do that big of a deal with a team in their division.
RE: ROSTER TALK: DAL with $22.7M - $34.4M in capspace | FA starts Aug 2, 5 pm - Kammrath - 06-24-2021
(06-24-2021, 04:55 AM)omahen Wrote: Since we know Cuban will be the big boss we can start assuming what offseason will look like. Based on historical lessons learns there are two main driving forces regarding free agency:
- we love our boys in blue and
- we love stars.
I might be wrong, but I don't think this is accurate. I think you can make a very strong case that Cuban HAS NOT been involved all that much. This vision stuff comes straight from DONNIE and not from Cuban IMO. But we will see.
If this summer is just more of the same with no real shift in direction and philosophy then I will gladly eat crow.
RE: ROSTER TALK: DAL with $22.7M - $34.4M in capspace | FA starts Aug 2, 5 pm - Razzmatazz_Hopskidillydoo - 06-24-2021
(06-24-2021, 07:07 AM)DanSchwartzgan Wrote: DeRozan might make sense as someone who can create for himself and others, but now you have two non-spacers between DeRozan and Nurkic and two non-defenders between DeRozan and Markkanen. Keeping THJ helps with the spacing, but not the D. Maybe Markkanen isn't the answer and you go for someone like Batum who can defend and hit a three.
Batum is good and he is a useful player, but Batum over Lauri? I know the Mavs are in win now mode because of a top 5 player, but Lauri still holds a lot of promise and could be a missed opportunity once again. Remember Dirk is on board and can have a defined/different role by the start of the season. And who knows? maybe Dirk can teach Lauri to be a better rebounder, teach him some of the swipes he makes as a defender, maybe some moves to punish smaller defenders, or make his face-up game better.
RE: ROSTER TALK: DAL with $22.7M - $34.4M in capspace | FA starts Aug 2, 5 pm - StepBackJay - 06-24-2021
(06-24-2021, 07:24 AM)DanSchwartzgan Wrote: You raise two interesting questions. How would you compare Vuc. (and having to eat one more year of Aminu) to KP?
I hadn't thought about this but it's amazing that Vuc who actually is a worse defender than KP, is considered a pretty strong asset compared to KP.
He rebounds and passers better than KP. His contract is definitely better. It's still surprising to be the perception difference though.
RE: ROSTER TALK: DAL with $22.7M - $34.4M in capspace | FA starts Aug 2, 5 pm - SleepingHero - 06-24-2021
(06-24-2021, 02:17 AM)Scott41theMavs Wrote: Neither does KP, and the Mavs don't owe powder over $100 million.
You do realize Nurkic has played 45 games total the last 2 years right?
KP played 43 this year alone
(06-24-2021, 01:58 AM)dirkfansince1998 Wrote: It´s not like Nurkic is some kind of scrub. In his last healthy season he averagef 16/10/3 in 27 minutes. 23.4 PER, +3.7 BPM (both better than KPs career highs). 2nd best +/- and on/off numbers behind Lillard.
You're absolutely right that Nurkic isn't a scrub. I like him as a basketball player. I also recognize that he's one of the few guys in the league that has been even less reliable than KP. Further he doesn't necessarily fix any of our issues that we have with KP and he creates even more problems because he isn't particularly a great rim roller or a floor spacer.
Nurkic would be fine as a flyer, but not for KP. I feel like I'm taking crazy pills to be the only one that sees this.
RE: ROSTER TALK: DAL with $22.7M - $34.4M in capspace | FA starts Aug 2, 5 pm - Mapka - 06-24-2021
(06-24-2021, 09:52 AM)SleepingHero Wrote:
Nurkic would be fine as a flyer, but not for KP. I feel like I'm taking crazy pills to be the only one that sees this.
I feel like that since all that trade KP-BS started.
Everybody is acting like he is a Rondo in Chandler Parsons body and Walls contract.
There might be a possible trade at the end of the day, that makes us better, but I wouldn't bet on that and I don't think the Mavs are looking in this direction at the moment.
RE: ROSTER TALK: DAL with $22.7M - $34.4M in capspace | FA starts Aug 2, 5 pm - ItsGoTime - 06-24-2021
(06-24-2021, 10:00 AM)Mapka Wrote: Everybody is acting like he is a Rondo in Chandler Parsons body and Walls contract.Perfectly said!
RE: ROSTER TALK: DAL with $22.7M - $34.4M in capspace | FA starts Aug 2, 5 pm - Chicagojk - 06-24-2021
(06-24-2021, 10:00 AM)Mapka Wrote: I feel like that since all that trade KP-BS started.
Everybody is acting like he is a Rondo in Chandler Parsons body and Walls contract.
There might be a possible trade at the end of the day, that makes us better, but I wouldn't bet on that and I don't think the Mavs are looking in this direction at the moment.
I can understand others frustrations and that he may be a ticking timebomb with his injury concerns. I get that and for that I won't say my direction is the best course of action.
I prefer to keep him and would only trade him if I can get a guy I think is all star caliber. I doubt that happens. So I want him back and see if we can renovate him for either here or for a trade down the line.
I hated how he was used this year (KP deserves a lot of the blame too) and I really disliked our offense as a whole. I want another elite creator. I want more ball movement and I want more player movement. KP is not a great screener, so I view him as a secondary option either off of Luka or secondary creator. Cutting to the basket, getting open looks off penetration and some mid range shots. For instance, first option down the court (with a lot of movement) is pick and role with a rim run with Luka. If that is not there it is moved to our other elite creator who takes advantage of a scrambling defense and tries to get to the rim or looks for KP on a cut or spotting up. Etc. That is my vision.
Improving his defense is the big ask though. If he can get back to a better than average defender than I can see my vision being really successful. If he can't play good defense or if we don't plan to use him differently, then a move may be the best future outcome.
RE: ROSTER TALK: DAL with $22.7M - $34.4M in capspace | FA starts Aug 2, 5 pm - BasketballJones41 - 06-24-2021
(06-24-2021, 09:40 AM)Razzmatazz_Hopskidillydoo Wrote: Batum is good and he is a useful player, but Batum over Lauri? I know the Mavs are in win now mode because of a top 5 player, but Lauri still holds a lot of promise and could be a missed opportunity once again. Remember Dirk is on board and can have a defined/different role by the start of the season. And who knows? maybe Dirk can teach Lauri to be a better rebounder, teach him some of the swipes he makes as a defender, maybe some moves to punish smaller defenders, or make his face-up game better.+41
RE: ROSTER TALK: DAL with $22.7M - $34.4M in capspace | FA starts Aug 2, 5 pm - mvossman - 06-24-2021
(06-24-2021, 08:44 AM)Kammrath Wrote: I might be wrong, but I don't think this is accurate. I think you can make a very strong case that Cuban HAS NOT been involved all that much. This vision stuff comes straight from DONNIE and not from Cuban IMO. But we will see.
If this summer is just more of the same with no real shift in direction and philosophy then I will gladly eat crow.
Why would you gladly eat crow? That would be a terrible outcome. I'm not sure where you are getting this idea that plan powder and "stars" is Donnie driven. You think Cuban is just a mouthpiece for Donnie? You think all of that "I read the CBA" bullshit was actually Donnie driven? I can't think of any evidence or reason to suspect this was Donnie driven. Maybe you are just talking about the last couple of years? I'm afraid you are going to eat crow on this one, and I assume it will be particularly bitter as status quo is not what we need.
(06-24-2021, 09:47 AM)StepBackJay Wrote: I hadn't thought about this but it's amazing that Vuc who actually is a worse defender than KP, is considered a pretty strong asset compared to KP.
He rebounds and passers better than KP. His contract is definitely better. It's still surprising to be the perception difference though.
Health is probably the biggest reason.
RE: ROSTER TALK: DAL with $22.7M - $34.4M in capspace | FA starts Aug 2, 5 pm - BasketballJones41 - 06-24-2021
https://twitter.com/thenbacentral/status/1408088547320598528?s=21
Here’s our chance!