(12-03-2020, 12:49 PM)KillerLeft Wrote:

(12-03-2020, 12:39 PM)ItsGoTime Wrote: ...now that we have the big horses spots filled.

So if you believe that, then we're not going to see this the same way. 

I think that is FAR from true.

(12-03-2020, 01:53 PM)Jym Wrote: I feel like we're screwed if KP isn't that 
You being so apprehensive to add long-term salary the past year makes a little more sense but then I don't get why you haven't pushed harder to trade KP for an upgrade

(12-03-2020, 02:00 PM)fifteenth Wrote:

(12-03-2020, 01:53 PM)Jym Wrote: I feel like we're screwed if KP isn't that 
You being so apprehensive to add long-term salary the past year makes a little more sense but then I don't get why you haven't pushed harder to trade KP for an upgrade

Killer wants 3 stars

(12-03-2020, 02:00 PM)fifteenth Wrote:

(12-03-2020, 01:53 PM)Jym Wrote: I feel like we're screwed if KP isn't that 
You being so apprehensive to add long-term salary the past year makes a little more sense but then I don't get why you haven't pushed harder to trade KP for an upgrade

Killer wants 3 stars

(12-03-2020, 01:39 PM)Mavsfan12 Wrote: Are you saying you don't believe in KP's ability?  Or Health?  Because, if healthy, there aren't many players we can get that would be better than him.  It is ok to doubt whether he is a "stable" horse that you can count on.

• As an off-ball floor spacer, he's probably the best in the league, due to his size and high release point. The size is germane in two ways, one, because he requires less space to be able to get the shot off and two, because it likely means that he's matched up with an opposing player who Dallas would very much like to have as far away from the basket as possible, freeing valuable space for Luka and others. This is valuable, FOR SURE, but at MAX MONEY? In a vacuum, is what KP gives you in this area really that much more valuable than what you get from Kleber, Bertans, Ibaka, PJ Tucker, etc? If this is the BEST thing he brings to the table, and the skill that's most often used, I say no.
  
• As a pick and roll diver or an off ball cutter, moving downhill towards the rim, he's quite valuable. He has good hands, maybe not the best, but definitely good enough, and he converts efficiently. He's NOT as good as Powell (or many others) here, due mostly, imo, because he doesn't seem to handle the short roll effectively enough. He simply doesn't have that one dribble pull up or two dribble drive off of the short roll locked completely in his tool belt, imo, and without those, passing out of it becomes a moot point. He has the skill to grow here, I think, but I haven't seen it yet, and if some people around here are correct about Powell being very much in the plans moving forward, I'm not sure when we'll even see him get the opportunity to grow in this way. Still, what he has established here is worthy of being listed in his skill profile. 
  
• As a pick and pop, designed spot shooter, he's not Dirk yet, but I can see this being the most likely element that gets added in the near future. Again, however, see my question about Powell. For me to buy into this, I have to know whether the Mavs believe in it enough to go all-in on it. Even if they do, I haven't seen much evidence that he can learn to be effective riffing off of it. He has this rep for being able to floor the ball, but...I'm not seeing it. Can he dribble? Yes. Can he pump fake and then attack a close out with an aggressive, direction changing drive to the rim, or variety of tried and true 1-2 dribble solutions to get a better jumper off? If so, I don't think we've seen it in Dallas yet. I'm worried. 
   
  

(12-03-2020, 01:53 PM)Jym Wrote: I feel like we're screwed if KP isn't that 
You being so apprehensive to add long-term salary the past year makes a little more sense but then I don't get why you haven't pushed harder to trade KP for an upgrade

(12-03-2020, 01:44 PM)fifteenth Wrote: dude

come on, now

surely you don't think that

(12-03-2020, 01:53 PM)Jym Wrote: I feel like we're screwed if KP isn't that 
You being so apprehensive to add long-term salary the past year makes a little more sense but then I don't get why you haven't pushed harder to trade KP for an upgrade

(12-03-2020, 02:00 PM)fifteenth Wrote: Killer wants 3 stars

(12-03-2020, 03:15 PM)ItsGoTime Wrote:

Quote:Killer wants 3 stars

Want and need are two very different thoughts.

(12-03-2020, 03:15 PM)ItsGoTime Wrote: Actually, Killer wants 2 stars. He doesn't consider KP to be a star based on his definition.

(12-03-2020, 03:31 PM)StepBackJay Wrote: Not everything shows up in the stats sheet, altho a good chunk of it does. Even when he doesn't shoot well he helps the offense because he draws so much attention and creates space. 

(12-03-2020, 03:32 PM)KillerLeft Wrote:

(12-03-2020, 03:31 PM)StepBackJay Wrote: Not everything shows up in the stats sheet, altho a good chunk of it does. Even when he doesn't shoot well he helps the offense because he draws so much attention and creates space. 

It's cool to disagree, but this doesn't read like you have any understanding of what I wrote above. Did you skip it?

(12-03-2020, 03:42 PM)StepBackJay Wrote: Also are there KP haters that also are pro-Powell in the starting lineup? If so you need to understand that KP as a star requires Powell on the bench. Then his full offensive game is unleashed and he isn't just a spacer.

(12-03-2020, 03:41 PM)ItsGoTime Wrote: KP can and has utilized the ball to initiate offense for himself. RC's offense so far hasn't allowed him to do that very much. Although, when Luka goes to the bench, KP's "star" shines much brighter! Can't figure out how anyone can think otherwise after watching him play.

(12-03-2020, 03:40 PM)StepBackJay Wrote: Not the long-form, just this "Correct. At least, not based on what we've seen so far."

I believe in KP as our 2nd best player!

(12-03-2020, 03:47 PM)KillerLeft Wrote:

(12-03-2020, 03:42 PM)StepBackJay Wrote: Also are there KP haters that also are pro-Powell in the starting lineup? If so you need to understand that KP as a star requires Powell on the bench. Then his full offensive game is unleashed and he isn't just a spacer.

Again, it's as if you didn't read a word of what I wrote. I'm struggling to find your train of thought and how it might relate to today's conversation. This is certainly not a rebuttal to anything I wrote, not by a long shot. 

I would assume that you're addressing someone else, but since I'm the only one bringing up the idea that KP might not be good enough to be the 2nd guy we're hoping he is, I can't imagine who that would be. Then again, you must be talking to someone else, because I'm far, far from being a "KP hater." 

The most likely explanation, I suppose, is that you're simply responding to something you didn't take the time to read.

(12-03-2020, 02:22 PM)KillerLeft Wrote:

(12-03-2020, 01:39 PM)Mavsfan12 Wrote: Are you saying you don't believe in KP's ability?  Or Health?  Because, if healthy, there aren't many players we can get that would be better than him.  It is ok to doubt whether he is a "stable" horse that you can count on.

I've been talking about this for months, but I'll state my concerns again, as clearly as I can. 

KP's health is a concern, for sure, but not the main one, for me. Now, to be clear, he hasn't played very much over the last three years (developmentally, very important years), so it's possible that this is contributing to my thinking about him relative to what IS my concern, but that concern is NOT directly related to his health. I trust the Mavs enough to believe they took a reasonably safe risk on him, health-wise. 

My main concern is that, to this point, I have seen no evidence that KP is able to be used here in such a way that he can positively influence the game with the ball in his hands. That's what you should get for "max" money, imo, especially when you're talking about the 1st or 2nd max guy. He's a GREAT player to have, but so far, his offensive contributions, while effective, have been completely dependent on a ball-handler to have any impact.

Here's how we've seen him used here, so far:

• As an off-ball floor spacer, he's probably the best in the league, due to his size and high release point. The size is germane in two ways, one, because he requires less space to be able to get the shot off and two, because it likely means that he's matched up with an opposing player who Dallas would very much like to have as far away from the basket as possible, freeing valuable space for Luka and others. This is valuable, FOR SURE, but at MAX MONEY? In a vacuum, is what KP gives you in this area really that much more valuable than what you get from Kleber, Bertans, Ibaka, PJ Tucker, etc? If this is the BEST thing he brings to the table, and the skill that's most often used, I say no.
  
• As a pick and roll diver or an off ball cutter, moving downhill towards the rim, he's quite valuable. He has good hands, maybe not the best, but definitely good enough, and he converts efficiently. He's NOT as good as Powell (or many others) here, due mostly, imo, because he doesn't seem to handle the short roll effectively enough. He simply doesn't have that one dribble pull up or two dribble drive off of the short roll locked completely in his tool belt, imo, and without those, passing out of it becomes a moot point. He has the skill to grow here, I think, but I haven't seen it yet, and if some people around here are correct about Powell being very much in the plans moving forward, I'm not sure when we'll even see him get the opportunity to grow in this way. Still, what he has established here is worthy of being listed in his skill profile. 
  
• As a pick and pop, designed spot shooter, he's not Dirk yet, but I can see this being the most likely element that gets added in the near future. Again, however, see my question about Powell. For me to buy into this, I have to know whether the Mavs believe in it enough to go all-in on it. Even if they do, I haven't seen much evidence that he can learn to be effective riffing off of it. He has this rep for being able to floor the ball, but...I'm not seeing it. Can he dribble? Yes. Can he pump fake and then attack a close out with an aggressive, direction changing drive to the rim, or variety of tried and true 1-2 dribble solutions to get a better jumper off? If so, I don't think we've seen it in Dallas yet. I'm worried. 
   
  

What's missing? Any kind of offensive action that is run THROUGH him. During Dirk's time in Dallas, we saw the evolution from his early years, during which it was clear they had half a mind to try to make him a point-forward (didn't work out) all the way to 2011, when there were at least 4-5 spots on the floor where you could throw him the ball and let him go to work. Go rewatch those games, and even you, a Dallas fan who probably LOVED him, will be surprised at just how many low post possessions Dirk got that season. And, we all remember his high post, elbow iso game, as well as the countless possessions where he would catch it above the free throw line where it was almost impossible for the opposing team to double him. The only thing Dirk never quite mastered was passing. He became a good enough passer, but never reached Dunan's level with that. But, he COULD impact the game in a profound way with the ball in his hands. 

Think of how Jokic plays in Dever, or Adabayo, in Miami. AD in LA. THOSE guys are max contract bigs, imo. All of them handle the ball A LOT, and to the great benefit of their teams. They are play finishers, but just as likely to be play initiators. 

In NY, the plan was to make Porzingis a post player, like 2011 Dirk. We know Carlisle doesn't share that vision, which is fine. But, imo, they had better figure out SOMETHING if he's really supposed to be the 2nd best player on this team. Imagine a signifiant stretch of time when KP is healthy, but Luka isn't. DISASTER. If your entire season rests on the availability of ONE player, then I offer the suggestion that you might not actually have the right 2nd guy in place. 

Now, again...maybe Carlisle has a plan for KP that will completely change my tune on all of the above, and if so, GREAT. Like I keep saying, I just haven't seen it yet. 

This post doesn't even address the defensive end, where I believe Porzingis is very useful, but definitely not a game changer, and will require more and more creative work-arounds as he ages. 

And, once again, I like the player. I'm glad he's here. I would've made the trade, and I probably would've offered the same extension the Mavs did. If he's your 3rd guy, all of the concerns I have go away, and the "limited" skills I listed above become LUXURY to an insane level. But, if this team doesn't have another guy on this roster who can pressure the defense with the ball in his hands before Luka's extension kicks in at the end of next summer, I think there's a very good chance that we'll look back at KP's contract like it was a mistake. That extension effectively put an end date on the "flexible team building" portion of Luka's career. 

Just how I see it. People are free to disagree. 

---

(12-03-2020, 01:53 PM)Jym Wrote: I feel like we're screwed if KP isn't that 
You being so apprehensive to add long-term salary the past year makes a little more sense but then I don't get why you haven't pushed harder to trade KP for an upgrade

Because until Luka signs his extension, we're still living in a world where anything is possible. 

I don't mind an overpaid KP as a 3rd guy at all. Love him for that, in fact. 

And, to be clear, I don't need that 2nd guy to be better than him right away, especially not status wise. A young guy with an obvious ball-handling fit here and the potential to be the 2nd guy is enough to move forward, imo. 

If they don't get that guy (before Luka's extension), I probably WILL be the leader of team "trade Porzingis" as at that point, I believe that will be the only way forward.

(12-03-2020, 03:53 PM)StepBackJay Wrote: I wasn't directing that comment at you. I did read your longer post and I get what you are saying but I disagree. I realize KP isn't Dirk (altho most players aren't?) but I love his game and absolutely believe he's a max-level player. We didn't get to see 100% KP yet but I think we will get there. He isn't a guard and Rick doesn't like post-ups so its unlikely you are going to see a ton of action run through him like you might see Embiid get. But that's okay bc I don't think that style of basketball wins championships anymore anyway. I think KP is as much a star as any modern center can be a star. Certainly more than Gobert. Jokic is the best center in the league and I think KP is close. KAT, Embiid, Bam, Ayton don't do anything for me. I like KP's well rounded game and believe he is a star worth max-money.

(12-03-2020, 03:47 PM)KillerLeft Wrote: In NY, yes! He showed that kind of potential. 

Last year in Dallas, no. I'm still holding out (a little) hope, but I'm far from being comfortable that they have "enough" at the top of the roster to move forward with confidence. If you think I've missed some things in KP's game (that fit into Dallas' plan for him) then PLEASE, point them out! I would love to be wrong about this one. I am very concerned about this, and have been since right around the All Star break.

(12-03-2020, 04:03 PM)KillerLeft Wrote: Being "worth max money" is a funny thing...it's objectively true for someone like KP, but only when enough other pieces are in place to make it true. By the nature of that simple fact, one could argue that it's quite subjective, when all is said and done. 

I get what you're saying about post ups, and went to great lengths to point that out in my post. So, we can rule that out. 

But, I think it's extremely shortsighted to lock in a max player through whom the offense can't be run, unless you are then able to get a 2nd guy (in addition to Luka) through whom it CAN. So, to me, the options here are:

1) get that 2nd guy BEFORE Luka signs his extension, while you still have multiple plausible ways of doing it.
2) find a way that Porzingis can BECOME that guy (if not in the post, then SOMETHING)
3) look back in four years, realizing the Mavs don't have enough, going "NOW WHAT??" This is where Milwaukee is right now, essentially.

I don't like option #3, myself. 

As for your takes on the players I mentioned (you added KAT and Embiid, who I always forget, thanks and Ayton, who I don't think belongs in the conversation yet), it's cool to have them ranked in your own, personal order. I might disagree, but what's NOT up for debate is that all of those guys (Jokic, Adabayo, Davis, KAT and even Embiid) play an offensive role on their teams which utilizes their talents by handling the ball. They all do it in different ways, but they ALL do it. Last year in Dallas Porzingis did NOT.