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+--- Thread: 2020-2021 ROSTER TALK: Archived (/showthread.php?tid=682)
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RE: ROSTER TALK: DAL with $22.7M - $34.4M in capspace | FA starts Aug 2, 5 pm - KillerLeft - 06-09-2021
(06-09-2021, 09:53 AM)Kammrath Wrote: I want KP gone, but JC is 100% capable of playing the 4 defensively and allowing KP to be the 5 defensively. So JC and KP can coexist IMO.
I agree, as far as fit goes.
I am a little hesitant about that pairing, however, seeing as neither of them is really a plus defender. Both of them might look a lot worse defensively (if that’s possible for KP) playing next to the other.
But yes, Collins is the 4 on both ends, so that works, and on offense, the two would be interchangeable at the 4 and 5. Switching who does the Kleber and who does the Powell at will, depending on matchups, presumably.
At the end of the day, Collins is securely in the category of “too talented for me to care enough about his fit to talk myself out of adding him if I get the chance.” We all agree that this roster simply needs more talent, overall, so if he’s your best chance to add that talent you have to take it.
RE: ROSTER TALK: DAL with $22.7M - $34.4M in capspace | FA starts Aug 2, 5 pm - SleepingHero - 06-09-2021
(06-09-2021, 04:45 AM)DanSchwartzgan Wrote: Back to Orlando and Bobby Marks...who is more valuable, Vucevic at 30 or KP at 25? Vuc is obviously older, but is owed less money. Vuc has a much better injury history, but probably doesn't sell tickets like KP. Are they roughly equivalent in the eyes of Orlando?
I think the ORL deal is creative, but I think makes the Mavs significantly worse imo. WCJr. isn't good enough (yet) to be a core rotation piece on a good playoff team.
Harris's injuries have sapped him of whatever offensive talent he had and he can't reliably score. I fear he'll end up much like JRich in that case. So the Mavs basically swap out KP, who for all his faults still is a good player, for a player that hasn't had any experience in winning and JRich 2.0.
The 2 picks are nice, but they don't translate to meaningful on-court production.
(06-09-2021, 09:27 AM)ItsGoTime Wrote: You're aware that THJ is 29 as well, right?
Yep but one should cost 10-15 mil less on average per year.
(06-09-2021, 09:27 AM)ItsGoTime Wrote: You're aware that THJ is 29 as well, right?
Yep but one should cost 10-15 mil less on average per year.
RE: ROSTER TALK: DAL with $22.7M - $34.4M in capspace | FA starts Aug 2, 5 pm - StrandedOnBeauboisHill - 06-09-2021
(06-09-2021, 11:49 AM)SleepingHero Wrote: The 2 picks are nice, but they don't translate to meaningful on-court production.
If anyone is offering two first round picks for KP then we take it in a heartbeat. Personally, I think that's a huge pipe dream (especially if you're wanted Wendell Carter too) but two picks opens up a ton of doors for us as we currently can't do anything as it applies to trading picks before 2027 until we remove protections on our 2023 pick.
I don't understand how everyone can be "we aren't getting on court value from KP" but expect on court value in a trade for him. The best move would be to reset our assets and start shopping for a real second banana for Luka and having two additional picks to trade goes a looooooonnnnnnngggg way for that.
(06-09-2021, 09:43 AM)Kammrath Wrote: I am telling y'all, JC is the next "Brogdon" in the sense of someone who was underutilized and was just waiting to break out.
I'm pro bringing in Collins as I see him as an upgrade over Maxi and we could then trade Maxi and sign someone like Batum to play the minutes behind him but I don't see how Collins' role here would be any different than his role in ATL. If he's coming here, it's about money, not basketball.
RE: ROSTER TALK: DAL with $22.7M - $34.4M in capspace | FA starts Aug 2, 5 pm - Mavs03 - 06-09-2021
(06-09-2021, 09:43 AM)Kammrath Wrote: BINGO.
I am telling y'all, JC is the next "Brogdon" in the sense of someone who was underutilized and was just waiting to break out. Many didn't want Brogdon because in his smaller role in MIL they couldn't see clearly what he was. Same with JC.
JC has always been my number one for this offseason. Get it done.
I agree with the Brogdon comparison. Go get Collins via a sign and trade, sign Lonzo Ball outright, and resign THJ...this team can be very good. A young roster with a ton of talent.
RE: ROSTER TALK: DAL with $22.7M - $34.4M in capspace | FA starts Aug 2, 5 pm - mvossman - 06-09-2021
(06-09-2021, 11:27 AM)KillerLeft Wrote: I agree, as far as fit goes.
I am a little hesitant about that pairing, however, seeing as neither of them is really a plus defender. Both of them might look a lot worse defensively (if that’s possible for KP) playing next to the other.
But yes, Collins is the 4 on both ends, so that works, and on offense, the two would be interchangeable at the 4 and 5. Switching who does the Kleber and who does the Powell at will, depending on matchups, presumably.
At the end of the day, Collins is securely in the category of “too talented for me to care enough about his fit to talk myself out of adding him if I get the chance.” We all agree that this roster simply needs more talent, overall, so if he’s your best chance to add that talent you have to take it.
Is he? He is not a particularly good defender. He does not create for others. Does he create for himself? As far as I can tell, he is a good shooter and a very good rim runner. Is that worth the max, and an asset, and ignorance of fit?
RE: ROSTER TALK: DAL with $22.7M - $34.4M in capspace | FA starts Aug 2, 5 pm - DallasBasketball - 06-09-2021
(06-08-2021, 09:45 PM)cjeter24 Wrote: And Ball is a legit pg who can pass guys into their spots where as Luka isn't that guy yet.
Do you really believe Luka is a guy who doesn’t pass the ball to guys in their spots?
I can understand saying Luka is too high of usage for the secondary players to be at their best, but I cannot understand saying Luka doesn’t hit guys in their spots. When passes come from Luka they go in more often than from any other player I’ve ever seen.
RE: ROSTER TALK: DAL with $22.7M - $34.4M in capspace | FA starts Aug 2, 5 pm - mvossman - 06-09-2021
(06-09-2021, 04:45 AM)DanSchwartzgan Wrote: Sorry, but I'm not getting why NO would want KP in any way. Whether it be this trade or something involving Lonzo and Adams. Defensive fit with Zion is terrible.
This seems like an extreme statement. The Zion/Adams pairing is clogging up the paint negatively affecting both guys. Imagine what that offense could do with KP on the perimeter giving Zion free roam in the paint. KP is not as good a defender as Adams, so they would take a hit there, but he was a better than average rim protector prior to this season and NO could potentially talk themselves into him getting back to that level when he is not spending a year recovering from an injury (a reasonable possibility).
RE: ROSTER TALK: DAL with $22.7M - $34.4M in capspace | FA starts Aug 2, 5 pm - DallasBasketball - 06-09-2021
(06-09-2021, 12:42 AM)RedFlag41 Wrote: What do you guys think of a CJ McCollum for KP trade?
What would be the probability of that happening?
If Portland would do it and if Dallas were willing, I see it as a matter of potential production and higher ceiling for Porzee vs. consistent production and limited ceiling for McCollum.
I think if Mavs were offered this deal they would have to think about it. I see it as a backwards move but a solid trade-in on Porzingis current value.
RE: ROSTER TALK: DAL with $22.7M - $34.4M in capspace | FA starts Aug 2, 5 pm - Tyler - 06-09-2021
(06-09-2021, 05:27 AM)omahen Wrote: I have to say my first reaction to Orlando was negative, like they are rebuilding, not competing, so what would they do with KP.
I'll say right off the bat that I think this is unlikely. But it's the offseason, so unlikely trade ideas should fit right in.
First, a few assumptions for discussion purposes:
1. Orlando prefers a true rebuild to adding big salaries right now.
2. Orlando might be more inclined to trade Isaac than people might think. Because as much as people love him he's not a high-flying superstar and has dealt with even more injury problems than KP (only 136 games played in 4 years).
3. Dallas sees Isaac as the absolute best fit as a defensive monster alongside KP. (I'm struggling to think of a better fit, myself).
4. Dallas can easily deal Brunson for a 2023 1st rounder. (Heck -- depending on the position, they might even be able to pull late first rounders in 21 and 23). That frees up their future picks for any deals they'd like to make.
5. Dallas can easily find the flexibility to operate either over or under the cap if necessary. So straight-up salary matching is possible but not required depending on the deal.
With all that in mind, let's talk trades.
What if Dallas offered DFS (a similar type of player and Florida alumn on an absolute bargain contract) and multiple first rounders? What if they also included Kleber? Or some of the rookies? How much do you have to add before Orlando decides to just double down on the Vucevic trade and collect as many assets as they can to rebuild from scratch OKC-style?
And from the Dallas angle, I sorta like the thought of upgrading DFS to a similar defensive-minded guy who could man the 4 with no issues. Then they could just focus on signing as many guards and wings as possible while letting THJ man the 3.
Like I said, I don't pretend that it's very likely. Just trying to think creatively to solve the KP problem without automatically resorting to selling low.
RE: ROSTER TALK: DAL with $22.7M - $34.4M in capspace | FA starts Aug 2, 5 pm - SleepingHero - 06-09-2021
(06-09-2021, 01:04 PM)DallasBasketball Wrote: Do you really believe Luka is a guy who doesn’t pass the ball to guys in their spots?
I can understand saying Luka is too high of usage for the secondary players to be at their best, but I cannot understand saying Luka doesn’t hit guys in their spots. When passes come from Luka they go in more often than from any other player I’ve ever seen.
Agreed.
A better comparison would be could Lonzo find people better than Brunson in the 2nd unit when Luka sits? And I think he'd be much better than Brunson at that job.
Brunson is a solid scorer, but an average playmaker. He would rather create for himself than create for others. Not that it's a problem because he's a good scorer, but it's obvious the offensive movement dies when Luka sits.
Lonzo could fit that.
RE: ROSTER TALK: DAL with $22.7M - $34.4M in capspace | FA starts Aug 2, 5 pm - mvossman - 06-09-2021
(06-09-2021, 09:26 AM)Mavs03 Wrote: John Collins is only averaging 13 points and 6 rebounds in the postseason. However, he is shooting an impressive 54% from the field, 44% from 3, and 93% from the FT line. But he appears to be the 4th option for the Hawks. I don't see how Atlanta could justify and pay him $25 million per year. In Dallas, he would be the 2nd or most likely the 3rd option.
Could Dallas do a sign and trade where they send Maxi and J-Rich (assuming he opts in) to Atlanta for a sign and trade of Collins?
Could we then trade Brunson for a sign and trade of Ball? We would be under the cap to absorb his salary. Remember New Orleans already has 94 million committed in team salary
That should give us enough money to resign THJ.
Starters:
Luka
Lonzo
DFS
Collins
KP
Terry
THJ
Green
Bey
Powell
Our bench would be very young with the exception of THJ and Powell. But our starting lineup would be dynamite. We drafted these 3 rookies last year in the top 36. It's time for them to play. They've been in our system for a year. With summer and eventually training camp, my hope is they can be contributors next year.
I think the cap math is way off on this. You have over 50 mil coming in with Collins and Ball and 10 mil going out in Maxi and Brunson with 34 available (if JRich opts in for your trade that comes out of the 34 available). You can't even do both those trades, let alone sign THJ.
RE: ROSTER TALK: DAL with $22.7M - $34.4M in capspace | FA starts Aug 2, 5 pm - StepBackJay - 06-09-2021
(06-09-2021, 01:04 PM)DallasBasketball Wrote: Do you really believe Luka is a guy who doesn’t pass the ball to guys in their spots?
I can understand saying Luka is too high of usage for the secondary players to be at their best, but I cannot understand saying Luka doesn’t hit guys in their spots. When passes come from Luka they go in more often than from any other player I’ve ever seen.
Luka does a lot of drive and kick and is a master at PnR. Lonzo is more Kidd-style making plays with his mind.
RE: ROSTER TALK: DAL with $22.7M - $34.4M in capspace | FA starts Aug 2, 5 pm - DallasBasketball - 06-09-2021
(06-09-2021, 09:43 AM)Kammrath Wrote: BINGO.
I am telling y'all, JC is the next "Brogdon" in the sense of someone who was underutilized and was just waiting to break out. Many didn't want Brogdon because in his smaller role in MIL they couldn't see clearly what he was. Same with JC.
JC has always been my number one for this offseason. Get it done.
Swing for the fences and if you fall short, be satisfied with cap space. This IS the Mavs dry powder plan and I am okay with it.
(06-09-2021, 01:26 PM)StepBackJay Wrote: Luka does a lot of drive and kick and is a master at PnR. Lonzo is more Kidd-style making plays with his mind.
I like Lonzo also but let’s not forget Luka magic Baby bird makes plays with his mind too.
RE: ROSTER TALK: DAL with $22.7M - $34.4M in capspace | FA starts Aug 2, 5 pm - DallasBasketball - 06-09-2021
I think there are two main narrative’s for Mavs to follow in roster building.
1. Continuity and competing and developing THIS roster into one that will grow with Luka without ruining a chance at 2;
2. Finding Luka a transcendent 2nd star, one of the most difficult objectives in the nba.
I like a lot of the ideas being thrown about but I think if the plan does not follow through on these two narratives it is not inside the bullseye enough for Mavs to pull the trigger.
I should add
3. Find veterans that can be added to shore up weaknesses and improve strengths without ruining the future ability to do 2
RE: ROSTER TALK: DAL with $22.7M - $34.4M in capspace | FA starts Aug 2, 5 pm - StrandedOnBeauboisHill - 06-09-2021
(06-09-2021, 01:41 PM)DallasBasketball Wrote: I think there are two main narrative’s for Mavs to follow in roster building.
1. Continuity and competing and developing THIS roster into one that will grow with Luka without ruining a chance at 2;
2. Finding Luka a transcendent 2nd star, one of the most difficult objectives in the nba.
I like a lot of the ideas being thrown about but I think if the plan does not follow through on these two narratives it is not inside the bullseye enough for Mavs to pull the trigger.
I should add
3. Find veterans that can be added to shore up weaknesses and improve strengths without ruining the future ability to do 2
It's quite the balancing act. How do you add vets to fill needs/minutes on the floor without breaking up continuity? I think the hardest part is deciding what pieces are worth investing in to achieve that continuity. From where I'm sitting it feels like the only pieces that the FO seems to think that way about are Luka, DFS, Hardaway and maybe Brunson (although him falling out of rotation in the post season isn't a great sign). Honestly though it feels like everyone not named Luka is on the block if there's a good offer for you point #2.
RE: ROSTER TALK: DAL with $22.7M - $34.4M in capspace | FA starts Aug 2, 5 pm - StrandedOnBeauboisHill - 06-09-2021
(06-09-2021, 01:03 PM)mvossman Wrote: He is not a particularly good defender.
Watching him this postseason has been pretty eye opening just in terms of the fact that the Hawks view him as their best wing defender. Not saying that it makes him a GOOD defender considering that roster makeup but he certainly had a lot to do with Randle being slowed down in the first series.
I look at it as Collins vs Kleber and it's looking more and more like the drop off from a defensive standpoint is less than I thought about a month ago and I think the offensive improvement is more than the defensive drop off. Also, Collins is up and down this post season but he doesn't look as nearly afraid of this moment as Kleber has two years in a row now which is disappointing because I love Kleber.
RE: ROSTER TALK: DAL with $22.7M - $34.4M in capspace | FA starts Aug 2, 5 pm - Mavs03 - 06-09-2021
(06-09-2021, 01:25 PM)mvossman Wrote: I think the cap math is way off on this. You have over 50 mil coming in with Collins and Ball and 10 mil going out in Maxi and Brunson with 34 available (if JRich opts in for your trade that comes out of the 34 available). You can't even do both those trades, let alone sign THJ.
You're right. Here's what I would do:
Maxi and J-Rich (assuming he opts in) to Atlanta for John Collins
Powell and Terry to New Orleans for Lonzo Ball
Should have enough money to sign THJ to a reasonable contract
Resign WCS or sign another big man with the rMLE
RE: ROSTER TALK: DAL with $22.7M - $34.4M in capspace | FA starts Aug 2, 5 pm - VintagePejav2 - 06-09-2021
John Collins is a fave here. Huh, okay.
RE: ROSTER TALK: DAL with $22.7M - $34.4M in capspace | FA starts Aug 2, 5 pm - StepBackJay - 06-09-2021
(06-09-2021, 02:42 PM)VintagePejav2 Wrote: John Collins is a fave here. Huh, okay.
I like Collins in a vacuum, I just don't like the price tag. I think we can spend that money better in other places and I imagine he will stay in Atlanta anyway.
Lonzo is a guy I would go all in on.
RE: ROSTER TALK: DAL with $22.7M - $34.4M in capspace | FA starts Aug 2, 5 pm - Tyler - 06-09-2021
The idea of the Knicks potentially wanting Kemba presents an interesting possible foundation for a 3-way deal. KP to Boston, Kemba to the Knicks, and a huge trade exception (plus their own ‘23 pick) to Dallas would open up lots of avenues to keep THJ and operate over the cap while chasing S&T deals for RFAs or absorbing other bigger contracts in trades. For example, with a $36mm TPE you could conceivably get Collins and Markkanen or Ball and Turner with only cheaper players and picks going out. Something to keep an eye on if Dallas starts getting creative.t