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2020-2021 ROSTER TALK: Archived - Printable Version

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RE: ROSTER TALK: DAL with $22.7M - $34.4M in capspace | FA starts Aug 2, 5 pm - RedFlag41 - 06-09-2021

What do you guys think of a CJ McCollum for KP trade?

What would be the probability of that happening?

RE: ROSTER TALK: DAL with $22.7M - $34.4M in capspace | FA starts Aug 2, 5 pm - Omega_Supreme - 06-09-2021

(06-09-2021, 12:26 AM)jesusshuttlesworth82 Wrote: $22-24 million for Lonzo sounds crazy until you think about THJ for $18 million.

Lonzo shot 38% from three vs THJ at 39%.  Lonzo actually attempted more per game.  

No denying who the much better passer and defender is.  Lonzo also 5-6 years younger.

I agree with Dan he's not the ideal secondary creator in the half court but I think I'd rather have him than THJ.

THIS 100% 

Lonzo's skillset is harder to find than THJ's.

Here is the one thing that gives me pause, the Mavs have shown a tendency to trade what they have for something they don't have. I hope they do not do that. If we move on from Hardaway for someone like Lonzo they need to replace THJ with someone that can still do what he does. That has been the mistake made by the Mavs front office, they trade away guys that have unique skillsets on our team for guys that have a different skillset creating a hole for the original guys skillset we never replaced. 

See Seth Curry trade, trading offense for defense and never replacing the Seth Skillset.

So if we bring in a guy like Lonzo then a priority needs to be adding a guy like Doug McDermont as well to offset the THJ skillset.

RE: ROSTER TALK: DAL with $22.7M - $34.4M in capspace | FA starts Aug 2, 5 pm - SleepingHero - 06-09-2021

(06-09-2021, 12:42 AM)RedFlag41 Wrote: What do you guys think of a CJ McCollum for KP trade?

What would be the probability of that happening?


I don't mind it at all. I like CJ a lot, though acquiring him does complicate resigning THJ.

Given that CJ is viewed as a negative asset, the likes of KP apparently, perhaps THJ could net CJ along with some other smaller assets? Now that'd make a lot more sense.

The only downside is that CJ also doesn't defend well much like THJ and he's 29, a bit off our core.

RE: ROSTER TALK: DAL with $22.7M - $34.4M in capspace | FA starts Aug 2, 5 pm - Razzmatazz_Hopskidillydoo - 06-09-2021

Will Lonzo accept NOT being the true PG of the Team? Because that is what he is going to be for the Mavs. He and Luka will switch roles from time to time when Luka is on the court with him, and then switch to full time PG when Luka sits.

So where does Brunson come in? Pretty sure Lonzo will eat away Brunson's minutes.

RE: ROSTER TALK: DAL with $22.7M - $34.4M in capspace | FA starts Aug 2, 5 pm - SleepingHero - 06-09-2021

(06-09-2021, 02:32 AM)Razzmatazz_Hopskidillydoo Wrote: Will Lonzo accept NOT being the true PG of the Team? Because that is what he is going to be for the Mavs. He and Luka will switch roles from time to time when Luka is on the court with him, and then switch to full time PG when Luka sits.

So where does Brunson come in? Pretty sure Lonzo will eat away Brunson's minutes.

He didn't seem to have an issue deferring to Lebron. 

He also didn't seem to mind deferring to Jrue Holiday either. Honestly I think lonzo prefers being the secondary dude. Less pressure and he isn't the focus every night.

Also I assume Brunson is going to get traded this offseason. Either for Lonzo himself, or maybe in another deal to round out the rotation. I don't think the Mavs are keen to throw big money at him despite his steady play, and his UFA status makes retaining him tricky in a Luka max world.

RE: ROSTER TALK: DAL with $22.7M - $34.4M in capspace | FA starts Aug 2, 5 pm - DanSchwartzgan - 06-09-2021

(06-08-2021, 10:55 PM)mvossman Wrote: What if that asset is ..... KP.  If the alternative options for a KP trade is Walker or Wiggins, then give me Ball.  That gives us a true two way player we really need.  He has his warts but the fit with Luka would be great.   

Sorry, but I'm not getting why NO would want KP in any way.  Whether it be this trade or something involving Lonzo and Adams.  Defensive fit with Zion is terrible.  

Back to Orlando and Bobby Marks...who is more valuable, Vucevic at 30 or KP at 25? Vuc is obviously older, but is owed less money.  Vuc has a much better injury history, but probably doesn't sell tickets like KP.  Are they roughly equivalent in the eyes of Orlando?

I might break the Vuc. trade down like this.  Vuc got them two protected firsts and WCJ and there was also a swap of expiring $28mm Porter for $20 million Aminu who eats into cap room in 21/22.  Neither player had any on-court value to their new team.  Is taking on Gary Harris at $20 million for a year (as necessary cap filler) similar to the Porter/Aminu swap?  If JRich opts in before the draft, then adding him to the deal makes it almost exactly like the Porter/Aminu swap...net $9mm to Dallas.  Orlando has a $17mm TPE that would make that possible.  Whichever way that goes, the true compensation for KP then becomes the two Chicago picks and WCJ?  Isn't that basically what we gave up for him...two picks and DSJ?  Doesn't that basically make KP similarly valued to Vuc?

The lottery will tell you where you stand on the first Chicago pick (top 4 protected this year and top 3 the next).  I wouldn't hold up the deal for the 8th or 9th pick.  If KP is deemed to be less valuable than Vuc, then just guarantee me a pick in 2023.  It could be the worst of the Orlando and Chicago pick with the guarantee that one pick conveys one way or another.  That puts Dallas back in the position of being able to convey 22, 24 and 26 in a deal if they wish.  You can still do the Lonzo deal, but with cash.  You could even add Burke to the deal to give Dallas $41mm in space.

WCJ/Powell
DFS/Maxi
THJ/RMLE
Lonzo/Harris-Green
Luka/Brunson

Orlando is:

KP/Bamba/Wagner
Issac/Okeke
ORL Pick/Ross
Hampton/JRich/Burke
Fultz/Anthony/MCW

RE: ROSTER TALK: DAL with $22.7M - $34.4M in capspace | FA starts Aug 2, 5 pm - omahen - 06-09-2021

(06-09-2021, 04:45 AM)DanSchwartzgan Wrote: Back to Orlando and Bobby Marks


I have to say my first reaction to Orlando was negative, like they are rebuilding, not competing, so what would they do with KP. But having a second look, a little lottery luck can put them right into playoff contention if not even higher. If they keep Chicago pick they will likely have two top 10 picks. A playmaking wing from draft would do wonders for them. They could even resign OPJ and further strengthen the wing rotation. 

If we get Harris I think it makes little sense to look for yet another guard in FA. I would go after Collins. Looking how Atlanta operates in the playoffs it makes little sense for them to pay him even close to max. We could actually easily expand the deal to a three team one, redirecting Orlando draft asset and Kleber to Atlanta. Could we even find a way to operate over the cap in this scenario? We would have to add roughly 4 mil of outgoing salary to make it work, if my calculation is correct. 

WCJ, Powell
Collins, MLE
DFS, Green
Harris, THJ
Luka, Brunson

This team is probably not more of a contender than last season, but talent level surely increased a lot.

If one prefers, simpler version is to go after Markkanen and keep Kleber. Spend rMLE for wing (Burks, Bullock?).

RE: ROSTER TALK: DAL with $22.7M - $34.4M in capspace | FA starts Aug 2, 5 pm - Mavs2021 - 06-09-2021

The Orlando trade would likely come down to what the Magic owner wants. If he is committed to a FULL rebuild and just views Porzingis as a flyer and salary-floor tool, that time-wise lines up with their three year rebuilding plan, then their final offer will be...

Harris + Ross + Bamba

If the Magic owner is actually interested in competing for the play-offs outright, then their offer could be something like....

Harris + Bamba + 1st round pick


Ross is just not acceptable for the Mavs, because it kills our 2022 space, especially if you need to pay Bamba, too. Equally if this is about a cost efficient rebuilding process for Orlando, then Ross + Porzingis + Isaac + Fultz + paying WCJ is just too much salary for Orlando in 2022.

RE: ROSTER TALK: DAL with $22.7M - $34.4M in capspace | FA starts Aug 2, 5 pm - Branduil - 06-09-2021

After seeing what's happening in the semi-finals, I'm more convinced than ever that the way to go is to get a modern center who can protect the rim, rebound, and switch on the perimeter, and then surround Luka with shooters and playmakers.

RE: ROSTER TALK: DAL with $22.7M - $34.4M in capspace | FA starts Aug 2, 5 pm - DanSchwartzgan - 06-09-2021

(06-09-2021, 05:27 AM)omahen Wrote: I have to say my first reaction to Orlando was negative, like they are rebuilding, not competing, so what would they do with KP. But having a second look, a little lottery luck can put them right into playoff contention if not even higher. If they keep Chicago pick they will likely have two top 10 picks. A playmaking wing from draft would do wonders for them. They could even resign OPJ and further strengthen the wing rotation. 

If we get Harris I think it makes little sense to look for yet another guard in FA. I would go after Collins. Looking how Atlanta operates in the playoffs it makes little sense for them to pay him even close to max. We could actually easily expand the deal to a three team one, redirecting Orlando draft asset and Kleber to Atlanta. Could we even find a way to operate over the cap in this scenario? We would have to add roughly 4 mil of outgoing salary to make it work, if my calculation is correct. 

WCJ, Powell
Collins, MLE
DFS, Green
Harris, THJ
Luka, Brunson

This team is probably not more of a contender than last season, but talent level surely increased a lot.

If one prefers, simpler version is to go after Markkanen and keep Kleber. Spend rMLE for wing (Burks, Bullock?).

I came really close to writing up the Collins alternative to Lonzo, but it was 4-something in the morning and the post was already long.  I like Harris as a placeholder/insurance policy for Green as we wait for him to take a bigger role.  He's also a large expiring deal at the TDL.

The timing is tricky if we are sending 2021 draft capital to Atlanta while hoping their RFA is willing to come here.  I get that it is a Schwartz player, but that doesn't guarantee things.  Now, if we are talking future draft capital...OK.  Here's my question.  Other than Luka, what spot have we filled (other than Collins obviously) in a way that is better than what Atlanta has.  WCJ vs. Capela?  DFS vs. Hunter?  Harris vs. Huerter?  Bogdanovic vs. THJ?   Gallinari vs. MLE guy?  Okongwu vs. Powell?  Reddish vs. Green?  Other than Brunson vs. Dunn, I don't see an advantage and I haven't even gotten to the possibility of bringing back Williams and Snell.

Either version...the Lonzo version or the Collins version is a nice reset with younger players that could presumably play together for years to come.  But, we probably need a path to one more guy at SG using Harris and other draft capital to really get beyond 4/5 in the West.

RE: ROSTER TALK: DAL with $22.7M - $34.4M in capspace | FA starts Aug 2, 5 pm - omahen - 06-09-2021

(06-09-2021, 07:24 AM)DanSchwartzgan Wrote: I came really close to writing up the Collins alternative to Lonzo, but it was 4-something in the morning and the post was already long.  I like Harris as a placeholder/insurance policy for Green as we wait for him to take a bigger role.  He's also a large expiring deal at the TDL.


I think you have to take into account Mavs salary will increase by roughly 50 mil in 2022 from whatever we will have in 2021. Luka will go from 10 to 35, Brunson from 2 to 10 and DFS from 4 to 10 and lets assume WCJ from 7 to 17. Therefore I think Harris 20 mil will be a welcome tax reduction. 


(06-09-2021, 07:24 AM)DanSchwartzgan Wrote: Other than Luka, what spot have we filled (other than Collins obviously) in a way that is better than what Atlanta has.  WCJ vs. Capela?  DFS vs. Hunter?  Harris vs. Huerter?  Bogdanovic vs. THJ?   Gallinari vs. MLE guy?  Okongwu vs. Powell?  Reddish vs. Green? 


Kleber as way cheaper alternative to Collins and future draft pick (from Orlando). The alternative for Atlanta is to pay Collins 25 mil per year, while they use him as 4th or 5th guy.

RE: ROSTER TALK: DAL with $22.7M - $34.4M in capspace | FA starts Aug 2, 5 pm - mvossman - 06-09-2021

(06-09-2021, 05:27 AM)omahen Wrote: I have to say my first reaction to Orlando was negative, like they are rebuilding, not competing, so what would they do with KP. But having a second look, a little lottery luck can put them right into playoff contention if not even higher. If they keep Chicago pick they will likely have two top 10 picks. A playmaking wing from draft would do wonders for them. They could even resign OPJ and further strengthen the wing rotation. 

If we get Harris I think it makes little sense to look for yet another guard in FA. I would go after Collins. Looking how Atlanta operates in the playoffs it makes little sense for them to pay him even close to max. We could actually easily expand the deal to a three team one, redirecting Orlando draft asset and Kleber to Atlanta. Could we even find a way to operate over the cap in this scenario? We would have to add roughly 4 mil of outgoing salary to make it work, if my calculation is correct. 

WCJ, Powell
Collins, MLE
DFS, Green
Harris, THJ
Luka, Brunson

This team is probably not more of a contender than last season, but talent level surely increased a lot.

If one prefers, simpler version is to go after Markkanen and keep Kleber. Spend rMLE for wing (Burks, Bullock?).

I'm not sure that lineup addresses any of our current issues.

Is WCJ the starting defensive anchor we are looking for?  Will he ever be?

If it makes little sense for Atlanta to pay Collins even near the max, why does it make sense for us to pay the max and an asset?

Harris feels a lot like a Wright/JRich retread.  

This team does not have a secondary play maker and I'm not sure how much the defense has actually improved.

RE: ROSTER TALK: DAL with $22.7M - $34.4M in capspace | FA starts Aug 2, 5 pm - Mavs03 - 06-09-2021

John Collins is only averaging 13 points and 6 rebounds in the postseason.  However, he is shooting an impressive 54% from the field, 44% from 3, and 93% from the FT line.  But he appears to be the 4th option for the Hawks.  I don't see how Atlanta could justify and pay him $25 million per year.  In Dallas, he would be the 2nd or most likely the 3rd option.

Could Dallas do a sign and trade where they send Maxi and J-Rich (assuming he opts in) to Atlanta for a sign and trade of Collins?

Could we then trade Brunson for a sign and trade of Ball?  We would be under the cap to absorb his salary.  Remember New Orleans already has 94 million committed in team salary

That should give us enough money to resign THJ.

Starters:

Luka
Lonzo
DFS
Collins
KP

Terry
THJ
Green
Bey
Powell

Our bench would be very young with the exception of THJ and Powell.  But our starting lineup would be dynamite.  We drafted these 3 rookies last year in the top 36.  It's time for them to play.  They've been in our system for a year.  With summer and eventually training camp, my hope is they can be contributors next year.

RE: ROSTER TALK: DAL with $22.7M - $34.4M in capspace | FA starts Aug 2, 5 pm - ItsGoTime - 06-09-2021

(06-09-2021, 02:20 AM)SleepingHero Wrote: The only downside is that CJ also doesn't defend well much like THJ and he's 29, a bit off our core.
You're aware that THJ is 29 as well, right?

RE: ROSTER TALK: DAL with $22.7M - $34.4M in capspace | FA starts Aug 2, 5 pm - omahen - 06-09-2021

(06-09-2021, 09:12 AM)mvossman Wrote: I'm not sure that lineup addresses any of our current issues.

Is WCJ the starting defensive anchor we are looking for?  Will he ever be?

If it makes little sense for Atlanta to pay Collins even near the max, why does it make sense for us to pay the max and an asset?

Harris feels a lot like a Wright/JRich retread.  

This team does not have a secondary play maker and I'm not sure how much the defense has actually improved.


This team adds two young players with potential upside and gets rid of 3 years of KP contract for one year of Harris. Collins is not a max player but Atlanta will match any 20 mil offer. We are sending Kleber because we don't have 25 mil of cap space after resigning THJ. 

This team has way too many holes to cover them in one offseason. If KP value would be sky high, one could dream about totally restructuring the team. But it is not. I think with this version you raise the ceiling of the team. If of course you believe in Collins and WCJ potential.

RE: ROSTER TALK: DAL with $22.7M - $34.4M in capspace | FA starts Aug 2, 5 pm - Branduil - 06-09-2021

People suggesting $25 million for Ball are driving me insane. Combined with KP we'd be paying close to $60 million for guys who don't solve EITHER of our biggest needs.

RE: ROSTER TALK: DAL with $22.7M - $34.4M in capspace | FA starts Aug 2, 5 pm - Kammrath - 06-09-2021

(06-09-2021, 09:26 AM)Mavs03 Wrote: John Collins is only averaging 13 points and 6 rebounds in the postseason.  However, he is shooting an impressive 54% from the field, 44% from 3, and 93% from the FT line.  But he appears to be the 4th option for the Hawks.  I don't see how Atlanta could justify and pay him $25 million per year.  In Dallas, he would be the 2nd or most likely the 3rd option.


BINGO.

I am telling y'all, JC is the next "Brogdon" in the sense of someone who was underutilized and was just waiting to break out. Many didn't want Brogdon because in his smaller role in MIL they couldn't see clearly what he was. Same with JC.

JC has always been my number one for this offseason. Get it done.

RE: ROSTER TALK: DAL with $22.7M - $34.4M in capspace | FA starts Aug 2, 5 pm - Branduil - 06-09-2021

I'm certainly fine with Collins but I think we definitely need to move KP in that case.

RE: ROSTER TALK: DAL with $22.7M - $34.4M in capspace | FA starts Aug 2, 5 pm - Kammrath - 06-09-2021

(06-09-2021, 09:50 AM)Branduil Wrote: I'm certainly fine with Collins but I think we definitely need to move KP in that case.


I want KP gone, but JC is 100% capable of playing the 4 defensively and allowing KP to be the 5 defensively. So JC and KP can coexist IMO.

RE: ROSTER TALK: DAL with $22.7M - $34.4M in capspace | FA starts Aug 2, 5 pm - StrandedOnBeauboisHill - 06-09-2021

(06-09-2021, 04:45 AM)DanSchwartzgan Wrote: Vuc is obviously older, but is owed less money.


This sentence is doing a lot of work to justify 2 picks for KP.  I am glad that someone explained to me that the Stepien rule doesn't just look at your teams picks because I do think that getting a 2023 pick and removing protections from the pick we owe the Knicks is actually huge value for KP if we can pull it off.


(06-09-2021, 06:15 AM)Mavs2021 Wrote: Ross is just not acceptable for the Mavs, because it kills our 2022 space


I mean we're trying to move a guy that we owe 70 mil over 2022 and 2023...I don't think we'd complain about taking on 11.5 in 2022.

Personally I don't think KP has nearly the value that some folks are putting out there.  I do like the idea of trying to get a 2023 pick because I'd much rather have 3 picks to trade to build around Luka then cap space at this point.  If that is something the FO has in mind then I would expect OKC to be the most obvious trade partner.  Horford/pick is where I think KPs value is.  If I were OKC I'd be trying to trade my 2024 pick to be honest because if they move their 2023 pick they just have the Heat's pick and it's lottery protected but that's ok because we'd still be able to do 24 26 and 28 if we have two picks in 24 (and I think other teams would prefer a 2028 vs a 2027 mavs pick).  Bringing in Horford would also put us at about 40 mil in cap space this offseason and we'd still have a very (potentially more) serviceable stretch big who is playing better defense than KP right now.  Also with Horford, if you just used cap space this year to improve the team around you and held on to those picks until next year you'd be able to pair 27 million in expiring with 3 first round picks which would be very appealing to a team that is having to blow it up and trade a star (KAT?...).