(05-28-2021, 03:31 AM)Branduil Wrote: I have to say I'm getting nervous about the Mavs' ability to keep Brunson after next year. The Knicks' point guard situation is dire and the obvious hole in their team, there's really no way for the Mavs to compete with what they could offer him, which is a starting PG job and $20 million+ in salary.

Obviously a lot still depends on how the playoffs play out. If the Mavs decide to move on from KP, and we could find a way to trade him for a high-quality two-way playmaker, then the obvious other move would be to trade Brunson to NY for Robinson+our pick back.

(05-28-2021, 01:14 PM)KillerLeft Wrote: One of the reasons Dallas has been successful in this series so far is that they know who their top 8 guys are, and the Clippers are really struggling to figure that out about themselves. 

So, it seems to me that anyone you want to bring IN to be a top 8 guy means that someone else has to STOP being a top 8 guy, right? While fan opinions of these guys might vary, I'm confident that none of them will be content getting pushed out of the top 8 while remaining on the team. So, to bring players in, players have to go. 

You want Markkanen? Fine, but understand that his role here would replace someone else's. Do you want him more than Kleber? Do you want him more than WCS/Powell? More than Porzingis? Those are the options, and LM probably won't sign on for WCS/Powell minutes. That's not what he means when he says he wants to land here (if that's even true). He's looking at Kleber's job, I promise. 

You want Dragic? You should ABSOLUTELY say goodbye to Richardson, in that scenario, and honestly, Dragic might be ok with a slightly reduced bench role at this point, given his age, but as others have said, he has a lot of equity built up in the Miami machine, and my guess is that he'd like to stay there if given the opportunity (though I bet Dallas would be high on his list if Miami decides to part ways). Plus, there is no question he has overlap with Brunson, so that could be tricky. 

My point is that these things are harder to pre-judge than we think. There really aren't any actual jobs open here next year unless Richardson opts out or THJ leaves in free agency. Sure, all of these guys are upgradable, but we have to consider the logistical and continuity cost of making these moves.

(05-28-2021, 01:14 PM)KillerLeft Wrote: You want Dragic? You should ABSOLUTELY say goodbye to Richardson in that scenario, and honestly, Dragic might be ok with a slightly reduced bench role at this point, given his age, but as others have said, he has a lot of equity built up in the Miami machine, and my guess is that he'd like to stay there if given the opportunity (though I bet Dallas would be high on his list if Miami decides to part ways). Plus, there is no question he has overlap with Brunson, so that could be tricky. 

(05-28-2021, 12:00 PM)StepBackJay Wrote: Dang that doesn't seem like enough money for eitherBrother!

(05-28-2021, 03:16 PM)Mavs2021 Wrote: I think the Mavs view

Doncic/Brunson
THJ/Richardson
DFS/X
Kleber/X
Porzingis/WCS

.....as the established set pieces. Therefore the in-coming talent has to be clearly superior to the pieces in place. For PG/SG that means a lot bigger solutions than Nunn, Graham, Monk, Rozier, Dragic etc.

If you break it down like this, the links to Markkanen, Collins and Turner make a lot of sense. Those are players that could realistically be obtained via S&Ts (with reasonable capspace leverage), provide the largest replacement value in our current rotation, have future re-trade value and fit the Luka timeline.

(05-28-2021, 04:54 PM)DanSchwartzgan Wrote: So, let me fix this and then make a few comments because I don't agree with KL's thoughts on an 8 man rotation (and I don't think the team does either).

(05-28-2021, 01:39 PM)jesusshuttlesworth82 Wrote: Lonzo Ball, Dennis Schroeder, Chris Paul, Kyle Lowry, Mike Conley are all free agents this summer.  Be surprising if the Knicks bypass all those guys so they can wait a year for Jalen Brunson.

(05-28-2021, 01:14 PM)KillerLeft Wrote: One of the reasons Dallas has been successful in this series so far is that they know who their top 8 guys are, and the Clippers are really struggling to figure that out about themselves. 

So, it seems to me that anyone you want to bring IN to be a top 8 guy means that someone else has to STOP being a top 8 guy, right? While fan opinions of these guys might vary, I'm confident that none of them will be content getting pushed out of the top 8 while remaining on the team. So, to bring players in, players have to go. 

You want Markkanen? Fine, but understand that his role here would replace someone else's. Do you want him more than Kleber? Do you want him more than WCS/Powell? More than Porzingis? Those are the options, and LM probably won't sign on for WCS/Powell minutes. That's not what he means when he says he wants to land here (if that's even true). He's looking at Kleber's job, I promise. 

You want Dragic? You should ABSOLUTELY say goodbye to Richardson in that scenario, and honestly, Dragic might be ok with a slightly reduced bench role at this point, given his age, but as others have said, he has a lot of equity built up in the Miami machine, and my guess is that he'd like to stay there if given the opportunity (though I bet Dallas would be high on his list if Miami decides to part ways). Plus, there is no question he has overlap with Brunson, so that could be tricky. 

My point is that these things are harder to pre-judge than we think. There really aren't any actual jobs open here next year unless Richardson opts out or THJ leaves in free agency. Sure, all of these guys are upgradable, but we have to consider the logistical and continuity cost of making these moves.

(05-28-2021, 04:54 PM)DanSchwartzgan Wrote: I'm a fan of the various MLE to a PF (Theis and Batum are high on my list, but I also like Niang if you have to go cheap).  ...  I think that step is adding a guy to share the PF spot with Maxi.

(05-28-2021, 05:12 PM)KillerLeft Wrote: You and @"dirkfansince1998" are both missing my point (or maybe it's more accurate to say I didn't articulate it sufficiently). 

The point wasn't the arbitrary number 8. The point was that Carlisle KNOWS who his TOP guys are, and they all have roles that have been carefully defined through much regular season tweaking and experimentation. Whether he plays big, bigger, small, smaller, whatever...he does so by forming different combinations of his BEST, most plugged-in players.  

(05-28-2021, 05:37 PM)DanSchwartzgan Wrote: Sorry I missed that.  I was taking you literally and I think there is a hole still to be filled (and if it were filled now, we'd be that much better).

(05-28-2021, 05:12 PM)KillerLeft Wrote: You and @"dirkfansince1998" are both missing my point (or maybe it's more accurate to say I didn't articulate it sufficiently). 

The point wasn't the arbitrary number 8. The point was that Carlisle KNOWS who his TOP guys are, and they all have roles that have been carefully defined through much regular season tweaking and experimentation. Whether he plays big, bigger, small, smaller, whatever...he does so by forming different combinations of his BEST, most plugged-in players. By contrast, the ongoing debate among Clippers fans (and I believe among the coaching staff, too) is more like: "should Mann be in the rotation? Should Rondo be ahead of Jackson? How does Batum fit in with all of this? What about Ibaka?"...etc. Partly because they've had so many players sit out for extended periods, and partly because Lue is quite obviously not (yet) near Carlisle's level, they do not KNOW the answers to these questions definitively. That was my point. 

I DO think there is a number (perhaps it varies based on roster construction) of players who can be played in a game effectively. But...

Could another person be added to the rotation in future seasons? Sure, but I don't think Markannen's people are trying to navigate him to Dallas (if that's in fact what they're doing) so that he can play 10 minutes in the playoffs behind Kleber. WE might want him in that role, and you might even think that's the ideal role for him, but I have a hard time imagining that's what HE wants, or that it's going to happen. 

You kind of support my point (the one I was trying to make) by NOT including a sexy, new guard in your example above. You have Brunson and Richardson playing all bench guard minutes, which they'd of course do if they're on the roster. I agree that there's room behind Kleber (where your X is) but NOT for a Collins-level or even a Markkanen-level guy. Now, a Batum, who would help and be ok with not playing every playoff game? Yeah, maybe. That's essentially a Melli upgrade, no?

Not to mention that none of this conversation deals with the fact that Powell (who you and I both like a lot) is being paid as a 4th or 5th starter or at least a celebrity bench guest and not really even in the real rotation against the Clippers. That might change in future rounds, but then again, maybe not. 

Most of YOUR stuff makes sense to me, and the point was directed (gently, I hope) at the posts that have NOBODY we like leaving and have Markannen, Dragic AND Batum (just random examples) incoming. That's ridiculous, imo. 

Moral of the story, for me, is this: the BIG names we discuss daily aren't coming here to be depth, they're (hypothetically) coming here for INCREASED opportunity. In other words, to take jobs away from guys like DFS, Kleber, Brunson, etc. That's fine, if it makes the team better.

(05-28-2021, 05:12 PM)KillerLeft Wrote: You and @"dirkfansince1998" are both missing my point (or maybe it's more accurate to say I didn't articulate it sufficiently). 

The point wasn't the arbitrary number 8. The point was that Carlisle KNOWS who his TOP guys are, and they all have roles that have been carefully defined through much regular season tweaking and experimentation. Whether he plays big, bigger, small, smaller, whatever...he does so by forming different combinations of his BEST, most plugged-in players. By contrast, the ongoing debate among Clippers fans (and I believe among the coaching staff, too) is more like: "should Mann be in the rotation? Should Rondo be ahead of Jackson? How does Batum fit in with all of this? What about Ibaka?"...etc. Partly because they've had so many players sit out for extended periods, and partly because Lue is quite obviously not (yet) near Carlisle's level, they do not KNOW the answers to these questions definitively. That was my point. 

I DO think there is a number (perhaps it varies based on roster construction) of players who can be played in a game effectively. But...

Could another person be added to the rotation in future seasons? Sure, but I don't think Markannen's people are trying to navigate him to Dallas (if that's in fact what they're doing) so that he can play 10 minutes in the playoffs behind Kleber. WE might want him in that role, and you might even think that's the ideal role for him, but I have a hard time imagining that's what HE wants, or that it's going to happen. 

You kind of support my point (the one I was trying to make) by NOT including a sexy, new guard in your example above. You have Brunson and Richardson playing all bench guard minutes, which they'd of course do if they're on the roster. I agree that there's room behind Kleber (where your X is) but NOT for a Collins-level or even a Markkanen-level guy. Now, a Batum, who would help and be ok with not playing every playoff game? Yeah, maybe. That's essentially a Melli upgrade, no?

Not to mention that none of this conversation deals with the fact that Powell (who you and I both like a lot) is being paid as a 4th or 5th starter or at least a celebrity bench guest and not really even in the real rotation against the Clippers. That might change in future rounds, but then again, maybe not. 

Most of YOUR stuff makes sense to me, and the point was directed (gently, I hope) at the posts that have NOBODY we like leaving and have Markannen, Dragic AND Batum (just random examples) incoming. That's ridiculous, imo. 

Moral of the story, for me, is this: the BIG names we discuss daily aren't coming here to be depth, they're (hypothetically) coming here for INCREASED opportunity. In other words, to take jobs away from guys like DFS, Kleber, Brunson, etc. That's fine, if it makes the team better.

(05-28-2021, 05:47 PM)dirkfansince1998 Wrote: I think finding the best 8/9 for the series against the Clippers is more about RC being a great coach. Lue being a pretty mediocre coach.

Quote:Also think that you are ignoring the large market of ring chasers. Quite a few players are willing to accept a lesser role if they have the chance to play for a contender. Not sure if the Mavs are already in that category (will know more after the playoffs). 

Quote:My current KP and JRich stay post season pipe dream would be something like: One guard (replace nearly 1000 minutes of Burke), one wing (you already mentioned why...reduce Maxi´s and DFS´s minutes, upgrade Melli), one big (KP insurance/backup). MLE and BAE are enough to adress two of those positions. Looking at the pay roll I could probably live with the WCS+Powell combine for one backup big approach if they adress the other two positions of need. In that case we obviously aren´t looking for a proven starter or something better. We already mentioned the most likely options. But then again. As you know I am not sold on KP and JRich.

(05-28-2021, 05:59 PM)Jason Terry Wrote: I disagree with your example though. Markkanen is already a bench player. I think he would view himself as more of the 3rd big. Regular season i think he could even end starting several games and there’s plenty of minutes. The playoff minutes he would get would be 1. The DFS PF min 2. All of Melli’s min 3. Some of Maxi’s already too high min 4. And some of the Willie-Cauley-Powell min