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RE: ROSTER TALK: DAL with $22.7M - $34.4M in capspace | FA starts Aug 2, 5 pm - Mavs2021 - 04-30-2021
(04-30-2021, 01:01 PM)omahen Wrote: 1. Do you realize that your coveted LaVine played in 63 % of games in his last 5 seasons, doesn't excel on defense and was never really a positive for the team neither did he made playoffs? I have a bit of a hard time seeing how he is such a huge upgrade over KP. We can bring all other pieces you are mentioning without trading KP
2. You want to bring Collins by saying to him he will be a number 2 option, which is a clear lie, since you plan to bring not only LaVine/Beal as clear number 2 on the team but also Holmes, who's only strength is PnR. I wonder how happy will that make Collins.
Allegedly
1a) Lavine had ONE major injury in his career. He tore his ACL in February and was back in October OF THE SAME YEAR, not October OF THE NEXT YEAR. Since that major injury he has not missed a game, unless it was season-ending tanking or COVID protocols.
1b) Has Porzingis played for a winning team before playing with the European LeBron James? I must have missed it.
1c) Lavine has an identical (positive) DRPM to Porzingis this season, but he ranks 26th in the league in WIN shares, while Porzingis ranks 92nd.
1d) That´s before we simply go into the actual eyetest: the ridiculous degree of difficulty and defensive attention Lavine receives, while maintaining nearly a 50/40/90 split. Porzingis can´t even get close to those shooting percentage, while receiving maybe half the attention, being defended by SFs or left wide open, while Luka draws triple teams.
2a) Of course I´m lying IF everything goes right, but nobody can tell what will happen 12 or 24 months from now. So in that moment I was not.
2b) Holmes is getting 9 FGA per game currently, playing for the Kings. It´s reasonable he´d get the same around here, which is far less than Capela.
RE: ROSTER TALK: DAL with $22.7M - $34.4M in capspace | FA starts Aug 2, 5 pm - StepBackJay - 04-30-2021
(04-30-2021, 01:00 PM)Mavs2021 Wrote: You overrate his trade value so much. Most of these ideas are worth more than what we actually gave up for Porzingis in the original trade.
You underrate his value. KP has had two good seasons despite coming back from a serious injury and despite being hampered some by his much smaller meniscus injury.
Take a look around the league. A ton of guys get injured and a bunch of guys get rested. KP is not the only guy that has had an injury or gets nights off. I would like to know how many iron-man type stars are left. The two leading contenders for NBA championship right now have their stars all missing time.
KP has played more games this year than AD, KD, Harden, and soon will have played more than LeBron. So like we don't need to overrate his injury situation.
His stats are good and he hasn't looked as good defensively but sometimes that's because he's not playing hard which is something the Mavs all do. Let's see what he looks like in the playoffs. Assuming he gets there healthy I believe he will look good.
RE: ROSTER TALK: DAL with $22.7M - $34.4M in capspace | FA starts Aug 2, 5 pm - Mavs2021 - 04-30-2021
(04-30-2021, 01:05 PM)omahen Wrote: You underrate his trade value so much
And basically every neutral observer says we clearly won the KP trade.
Nobody says that anymore. Maybe you should step outside the Mavs bubble occasionally.
Hey for our own sake I hope you are right about his trade value.
If we get the #2 pick Wiseman and a top 5-ish lottery pick for Porzingis after we gave up DSJ, and three non-lottery picks, I´ll throw a party.
I´ll declare Wiggins vs. THJ/Lee contracts a wash for argument´s sake, though most would probably value Wiggins higher.
RE: ROSTER TALK: DAL with $22.7M - $34.4M in capspace | FA starts Aug 2, 5 pm - SleepingHero - 04-30-2021
(04-30-2021, 07:19 AM)KillerLeft Wrote: Is KP a consistent three point shooter? I had no idea.
I also had no idea that so many teams wanted to be much worse, defensively, or that they wanted to pay someone so handsomely to reach that goal.
I think you’re in a fair amount of denial about this, personally.
36% is an above average 3pt shooter historically. Maybe not this particular season because the offense is so historic and the defenses are so bad, but I don't see why we're mincing words on this. Is 36% now bad because he's KP?
I'm not even getting into whether I'm in denial, I don't really care. You and several others are obsessed over this particular topic hijacking nearly every thread with it and frankly I don't think there is anything productive to say.
Im echoing my same sentiments since day 1: KP is a Mav for the long haul. He has his warts but at the end of the day the team is better with him than without. I would be totally fine trading KP as long as the return is commensurate to his value to the team. I think we differ on the commensurate value. Further, I think we differ on the urgency of moving on from KP.
I do believe this entire conversation is a bit of a moot point because I just cannot see Donnie cutting bait on KP at ALL 2 years into a deal. That is unless it was for a no brainer move that we'd all be happy for.
I'm not going to make any personal attacks here. The Anti-KP Brigade is having its fun. Maybe I should just take a break lol.
RE: ROSTER TALK: DAL with $22.7M - $34.4M in capspace | FA starts Aug 2, 5 pm - KillerLeft - 04-30-2021
(04-30-2021, 02:12 PM)SleepingHero Wrote: I'm not going to make any personal attacks here. The Anti-KP Brigade is having its fun. Maybe I should just take a break lol.
Sorry if my post came off as a personal attack (truly). It wasn't meant that way, and I like your contributions here a lot. I just think you're choosing (probably on an unconscious level) to look past the obvious with this, specific player. He has not made this team better, especially this season (right after getting paid). That doesn't make me happy, as I was raising the pom-poms when they got him, just like everyone else. I was in favor of the contract extension, too, just like everyone else.
I don't consider myself "anit-KP" at all, I'm just reading the situation. He does not play hard, especially on defense. To me, that means either A) he doesn't like his situation here, B) He still hasn't gotten completely healthy (if not, will he ever?) or C) his injuries have permanently sapped him of the foot speed, quickness and agility needed to affect the game on defense. Personally, I don't care if he's healthy for the playoffs, because outside of the very occasional amazing offensive performance, the team is better (imo) without him. Now, I could be wrong about any of this, but I 100% promise you I'm not sitting around hoping that KP will continue to play poorly so that I can be right about something on the internet. I REALLY think this entire KP thing was a mistake (with the benefit of hindsight - this isn't an "I told you so") and will hold the team back until it's resolved.
RE: ROSTER TALK: DAL with $22.7M - $34.4M in capspace | FA starts Aug 2, 5 pm - Mavs2021 - 04-30-2021
(04-30-2021, 02:12 PM)SleepingHero Wrote: 36% is an above average 3pt shooter historically. Maybe not this particular season because the offense is so historic and the defenses are so bad, but I don't see why we're mincing words on this. Is 36% now bad because he's KP?
Remember this the next time you complain again that DFS missed a wide open 3pt, which is at least once every game.
He´s now up to 39.3% for the season. 
Oh also since the birth of his son, post-covid and post-nuclear winter, he´s shooting 47.7% from 3pt range (54-113).
Mavs better factor in that 60/4 contract extension already.
RE: ROSTER TALK: DAL with $22.7M - $34.4M in capspace | FA starts Aug 2, 5 pm - StepBackJay - 04-30-2021
(04-30-2021, 01:51 PM)Mavs2021 Wrote: Nobody says that anymore. Maybe you should step outside the Mavs bubble occasionally.
Hey for our own sake I hope you are right about his trade value.
If we get the #2 pick Wiseman and a top 5-ish lottery pick for Porzingis after we gave up DSJ, and three non-lottery picks, I´ll throw a party.
I´ll declare Wiggins vs. THJ/Lee contracts a wash for argument´s sake, though most would probably value Wiggins higher.
I don't think Mavs will do Wiseman or Wiggins.
Also DSJ was already trash when the Mavs traded him. He literally just stopped playing games for a couple of weeks.
We were lucky that the Knicks were one of the few teams that assigned any value to him. Mavs still won that trade no matter what happens. We can't predict injury or anything like that but giving up 2 first round picks + stuff was a good trade for that type of talent.
Knicks can say hey we got Randle who is actually better + picks and whatnot for KP. There is an argument to be made that Randle is better but that wasn't their plan. Their plan was KD + Kyrie which failed and they were able to stumble into Randle so good for them.
RE: ROSTER TALK: DAL with $22.7M - $34.4M in capspace | FA starts Aug 2, 5 pm - StepBackJay - 04-30-2021
(04-30-2021, 02:27 PM)KillerLeft Wrote: I REALLY think this entire KP thing was a mistake (with the benefit of hindsight - this isn't an "I told you so") and will hold the team back until it's resolved.
It's hard for me to understand why you would think it was a mistake, even we aren't happy with how its going. Like what were the Mavs going to do? To me their other plan was probably signing Vucevic, and there was mutual interest there. Vuc is a good player especially offensively but is even worse defensively.
I still believe Mavs can easily get what they paid for in KP, likely more so for me it's still a win regardless of whether or not KP returns to all-star form. I can believe that while also being disappointed in how KP has looked.
RE: ROSTER TALK: DAL with $22.7M - $34.4M in capspace | FA starts Aug 2, 5 pm - KillerLeft - 04-30-2021
(04-30-2021, 03:06 PM)StepBackJay Wrote: It's hard for me to understand why you would think it was a mistake, even we aren't happy with how its going. Like what were the Mavs going to do?
I don't mean mistake, as in relative to something else I would've preferred they do, I just mean he isn't the player who they (and we) thought they were buying. With the benefit of hindsight, I would much rather have those two first-round picks, and/or the ability to include them in another deal. Even the memory of DSJ has me feeling nostalgic, though that's probably just the disappointment talking.
At the end of the day, it's not the trade that screams "mistake" to me, it's the contract. The Mavs are in a real pickle with this one, imo. The sooner they get out of it, the sooner they can start building a championship team.
RE: ROSTER TALK: DAL with $22.7M - $34.4M in capspace | FA starts Aug 2, 5 pm - Mavs2021 - 04-30-2021
(04-30-2021, 03:03 PM)StepBackJay Wrote: Knicks can say hey we got Randle who is actually better + picks and whatnot for KP. There is an argument to be made that Randle is better but that wasn't their plan.
I´ll give you the thumbs up for that part.
RE: ROSTER TALK: DAL with $22.7M - $34.4M in capspace | FA starts Aug 2, 5 pm - StrandedOnBeauboisHill - 04-30-2021
(04-30-2021, 12:49 PM)Mavs2021 Wrote: You put that to Duffy/Lavine and say: Look we sucked in the past, but we got our house in order.
Your hatred for the front office is a little over the top. You know that Zach Lavine is playing for a team that is currently 10 games below .500 while we're 8 games above right?
Also, I'm not sure if you were around for the entirety of the Cuban era but I would just like to point out that there's continuity in Dallas for a reason and that reason is that we had the second most wins in the NBA over 20 years...so it's hard for me to second guess them.
Before the "Dirk is the only reason for that" I would like to remind you that we got Dirk because our FO traded for him, the same way we got Luka.
RE: ROSTER TALK: DAL with $22.7M - $34.4M in capspace | FA starts Aug 2, 5 pm - StepBackJay - 04-30-2021
(04-30-2021, 03:12 PM)KillerLeft Wrote: I don't mean mistake, as in relative to something else I would've preferred they do, I just mean he isn't the player who they (and we) thought they were buying. With the benefit of hindsight, I would much rather have those two first-round picks, and/or the ability to include them in another deal. Even the memory of DSJ has me feeling nostalgic, though that's probably just the disappointment talking.
At the end of the day, it's not the trade that screams "mistake" to me, it's the contract. The Mavs are in a real pickle with this one, imo. The sooner they get out of it, the sooner they can start building a championship team.
Ya so the picks were ammunition for another move so that part makes sense. I am scared of how many Josh Greens we'd have on this team if we actually drafted players with those picks but more likely they get traded for someone else. Jrue Holiday might have been the missed opportunity if Mavs could have landed him in a package with 2 first round picks before Bucks got him.
RE: ROSTER TALK: DAL with $22.7M - $34.4M in capspace | FA starts Aug 2, 5 pm - StrandedOnBeauboisHill - 04-30-2021
(04-30-2021, 03:06 PM)StepBackJay Wrote: Like what were the Mavs going to do?
I think it's a fair assessment to say "Luke expedited our timeline so we made a very strong move to expedite our roster construction with the KP trade." which was absolutely the right thing for us to do. It's all hindsight now, but I think the answer to "what were we going to do?" kind of insinuates that the KP trade is the only one that we could have made (again, hindsight, I was fully on board with this move and on paper it seemed fantastic) but the reality is that we could have made that offer to a lot of teams for some high profile players at the time most likely and those teams would have been interested. I don't have names or anything available but it's just kind of disappointing when those trades don't work out super well because those packages with first round picks take like years off of a franchise's ability to make another splashy trade like that.
Having said that...we aren't that far away from having those assets reload at this point and have a chance to bring in another player who really does move KP to more of an x factor role. It wouldn't really be until the 2023 deadline but we will have plenty to offer again (20 mil in expirings as of today, bunch of rookie contract players and we'll be able to package two first round picks again). I foresee this front office operating much like we did in the early 2000's where first round picks are simply trade assets because the entire focus is to win now.
I also didn't realize that you were already responded to with like the exact same sentiment, my bad.
RE: ROSTER TALK: DAL with $22.7M - $34.4M in capspace | FA starts Aug 2, 5 pm - StepBackJay - 04-30-2021
(04-30-2021, 03:12 PM)KillerLeft Wrote: At the end of the day, it's not the trade that screams "mistake" to me, it's the contract. The Mavs are in a real pickle with this one, imo. The sooner they get out of it, the sooner they can start building a championship team.
I don't think the contract is bad in that Mavs could get out of it easily. It is bad in that Mavs are paying for a star but not getting one. If Mavs just want to trade KP away and get cap space back as part of the package they get back I think that's possible but then as we have seen cap space doesn't mean a whole lot.
Even with KP's money Mavs can put together 34 mil to spend on a player or two but how many FA's are even worth half of 17 mil this year?
I am down on KP but I still want fair value. Somehow getting Brogdon would be my favorite idea (too bad Mavs didn't just sign him out right a couple of years ago).
I am also good if Mavs could somehow get the Minney pick without taking on Wiggins. This would entail something a third team taking Wiggins and either just eating his money or sending back a player the Mavs like more. For example would Cleveland take Wiggins and send you Love? Mavs would pair Love with a defensive guy like Holmes and also be able to draft a future star/starter with that Minnesota pick.
RE: ROSTER TALK: DAL with $22.7M - $34.4M in capspace | FA starts Aug 2, 5 pm - F Gump - 04-30-2021
(04-30-2021, 03:42 PM)StepBackJay Wrote: Mavs would pair Love with a defensive guy like Holmes and also be able to draft a future star/starter with that Minnesota pick.
KP for Love and the Minny pick ...New idea, but not sure that is even close to suitable compensation.
Also, does Holmes have value on D? I thought his value was mostly in his rim-running.
RE: ROSTER TALK: DAL with $22.7M - $34.4M in capspace | FA starts Aug 2, 5 pm - SleepingHero - 04-30-2021
(04-30-2021, 02:27 PM)KillerLeft Wrote: Sorry if my post came off as a personal attack (truly). It wasn't meant that way, and I like your contributions here a lot. I just think you're choosing (probably on an unconscious level) to look past the obvious with this, specific player. He has not made this team better, especially this season (right after getting paid). That doesn't make me happy, as I was raising the pom-poms when they got him, just like everyone else. I was in favor of the contract extension, too, just like everyone else.
Hey thanks for the reply.
I see your side. I just disagree overall. You have valid points, namely the health aspect. I said in the KP thread that this topic has become frustrating for everyone involved. Each side is staring at the other dumbfounded saying "how can they seriously not agree with all this evidence"
I've found on the internet that when a topic gets like this, nothing good ever really comes from it. So I'm just tapping out and taking a wait and see approach. We both know what we think. Rather than screaming past each other ad nauseam about what we think over and over I'm going to save my keyboard.
RE: ROSTER TALK: DAL with $22.7M - $34.4M in capspace | FA starts Aug 2, 5 pm - StepBackJay - 04-30-2021
(04-30-2021, 03:50 PM)F Gump Wrote: KP for Love and the Minny pick ...New idea, but not sure that is even close to suitable compensation.
Also, does Holmes have value on D? I thought his value was mostly in his rim-running.
Kamm is your guy for defensive value. I was under the impression he is a good defender.
As far as comp, I mean it's hard to say what is good compensation. Some ppl think KP is almost negative value in the sense that you have to take what you can get to dump him (ie lesser players and or a pick maybe).
I don't believe that his value is that at all. For my K Love idea I think it really depends on how people value the 4th or 5th pick in the draft. From what I can tell people on this board do not value that pick much at all. I don't know enough about college to draft this years prospects. We know that Wiseman's value is probably low enough that Warriors would be good to hang onto him a little bit longer than sell low. He is not looking like a #2 overall pick.
If there is a guy that's a future star at #4 then I really like the trade idea.
RE: ROSTER TALK: DAL with $22.7M - $34.4M in capspace | FA starts Aug 2, 5 pm - StepBackJay - 04-30-2021
(04-30-2021, 04:23 PM)SleepingHero Wrote: I see your side. I just disagree overall. You have valid points, namely the health aspect.
Going back to health I think ppl are not realizing how many guys are injured this year in particular. KP has played 1 less game than Lebron, many more than AD, 2 less than Harden, 3 less than Embiid. Thats 4 top 8 players in the league. AD and Embiid are both chronically injured guys LeBron and Harden to their credit have been very durable but that's more the exception than the rule, especially for bigger players. Dirk was also very durable during his time.
RE: ROSTER TALK: DAL with $22.7M - $34.4M in capspace | FA starts Aug 2, 5 pm - F Gump - 04-30-2021
Interesting back and forth.
I think KP's value is probably still really very high, based on age and production when he plays. He's seen as a stretch big - highly valued by itself - who also has ability to contribute on defense. And I don't think there are many teams who see him otherwise. Even if there are flaws in some of that, it's a hard package of pluses to find in one player. Oh, and he's only 25, which is HUGE in relation to desirability. Locked in for several years also adds value.
About the injuries, the issue is whether he has something permanent, or nicks and bumps. So far it seems like the latter, which I think every franchise thinks are just NBA life.
IOW the way I see the situation today is that there are a slew of teams seriously WISHING the Mavs get impatient and decide they are willing to move on. In the same way we look at Beal, for example. And willing to pay a lot to outbid others.
As for whether the Mavs MIGHT trade him, I think they are likely to stay bullish on the on-floor potential, even though there can be issues to try to work through. But I do think they start looking at offers seriously IF they decide they can't depend on him to play. Dependability is a factor the Mavs seem to look for when they have a player they like, with a willingness to move on if it's not there.
Are they past that point yet? Good question, but no way to know. The covid stuff that's made everyone iffy all year, and has made the schedule extra-brutal in the last half, has to work in his favor to some degree. My guess says they aren't ready to move on yet, but I feel that his availability in the 2021 playoffs (or lack of same) can tip the scales.
Personally? I'd probably cash in, if I can get a star (or potential star) plus side assets (picks) in return. I'm not down on him, but I am not big on paying max money to centers, which is where he's used here; but I want full value back, not cap room. And I think his development arc looks more like a 7-3 3-and-D SF with neither a stellar 3 nor a dominant D, which means I don't think he's likely to develop into what we need in the long run..
Just my 2c.
RE: ROSTER TALK: DAL with $22.7M - $34.4M in capspace | FA starts Aug 2, 5 pm - Kammrath - 04-30-2021
(04-30-2021, 03:50 PM)F Gump Wrote: does Holmes have value on D?
His on/off DRatings the last three years...
20-21: +0.9
19-20: +1.3
18-19: +5.7
My eyes tell me he is one of the best bigs in the game at moving his feet on the perimeter and being switchable and I also think he is a solid rim protector as well.