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+--- Thread: 2020-2021 ROSTER TALK: Archived (/showthread.php?tid=682)
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RE: ROSTER TALK: Mar 25 TDL | Marc Spears: Mavs are shopping KP - SleepingHero - 03-09-2021
I don't know why we aren't looking harder at a guy like Oladipo.
He can he had at a fraction of the cost of all these other guys, with a clear cut fit on our team.
If anything he's a better version of Richardson, who is also expiring as well. If the Mavs are hesitant on keeping JRich this summer, might as well try and get Dipo who is obviously looking at MIA this offseason.
RE: ROSTER TALK: Mar 25 TDL | Marc Spears: Mavs are shopping KP - cow - 03-09-2021
(03-09-2021, 10:06 PM)SleepingHero Wrote: I don't know why we aren't looking harder at a guy like Oladipo.
He can he had at a fraction of the cost of all these other guys, with a clear cut fit on our team.
If anything he's a better version of Richardson, who is also expiring as well. If the Mavs are hesitant on keeping JRich this summer, might as well try and get Dipo who is obviously looking at MIA this offseason.
Not a Richardson fan but Dipo is probably going to get paid twice as much and has his own injury concerns.
RE: ROSTER TALK: Mar 25 TDL | Marc Spears: Mavs are shopping KP - Kammrath - 03-09-2021
(03-09-2021, 10:06 PM)SleepingHero Wrote: If anything he's a better version of Richardson
As bad as JRich has been I am really not sure that's the case....
Dipo is basically shooting career worsts across the board:
FG% 39.9
FG3% 33.1
FT% 74.7
RE: ROSTER TALK: Mar 25 TDL | Marc Spears: Mavs are shopping KP - SleepingHero - 03-09-2021
(03-09-2021, 10:11 PM)cow Wrote: Not a Richardson fan but Dipo is probably going to get paid twice as much and has his own injury concerns.
True. I did preface this with a line of thinking that the Mavs aren't ready to commit to JRich long term. Because of that they're basically trading 1 asset that they don't want to keep for another that has the potential to work, but also has a chance of leaving.
The threat of Dipo walking also drives down his price significantly. Ideally we could get it done by just sending JRich+Johnson+2nd rounders for Dipo+McLemore.
(03-09-2021, 10:12 PM)Kammrath Wrote: As bad as JRich has been I am really not sure that's the case....
Dipo is basically shooting career worsts across the board:
FG% 39.9
FG3% 33.1
FT% 74.7
Fair point. However, I think this is a case of Dipo having free reign on a tanking team with a terrible offense. He was significantly better in his 9 games in IND before the trade. 20/6/4 on 42/36/73. I think Dipo would thrive on less attempts, but higher quality shots. Where in HOU he has all the shots he wants, regardless of quality.
Further his defense is on the same level as JRich, if not better. My biggest concern would be him just bolting in FA because it seems he has his heart set on MIA. But given that it could influence his price to be cheap.
RE: ROSTER TALK: Mar 25 TDL | Marc Spears: Mavs are shopping KP - cow - 03-09-2021
(03-09-2021, 10:12 PM)Kammrath Wrote: As bad as JRich has been I am really not sure that's the case....
Dipo is basically shooting career worsts across the board:
FG% 39.9
FG3% 33.1
FT% 74.7
I'm not really a Dipo fan either (twice in two posts, lol), but I really don't trust JRich's numbers this season.
28% from three is an outlier and I think he'll shoot better than that but his 2PT% and FT% are outliers in the opposite direction. I really don't know what to make of him.
This summer is going to be interesting from a JRich and THJ standpoint just to see what the Mavs think of them. I'd personally walk away from both of them which hurts a little because I think they are both great dudes.
RE: ROSTER TALK: Mar 25 TDL | Marc Spears: Mavs are shopping KP - omahen - 03-10-2021
(03-09-2021, 09:01 PM)DanSchwartzgan Wrote: But, we just don't have much to trade.
I think that is not really correct. Brunson has developed nicely and should be an asset. We have Green as a prospect and to lesser extent Terry. Than we have (theoretically) two picks and as much expiring salary as one wants. Perhaps not enough for a Beal package, but should be enough for a player, who will have to be overpaid. KP price was two picks, DSJ and a bunch of expiring contracts. I guess 2025, 2027 and Brunson (or Green) is a comparable package.
The question of course is - are we willing to spend all remaining assets for a player who will surely be overpaid in the summer.
RE: ROSTER TALK: Mar 25 TDL | Marc Spears: Mavs are shopping KP - SweetFidelia - 03-10-2021
Despite my disappointment in much of KP’s play, I’m just not ready to give up on Him yet, and I’m certainly opposed to trades that seem to push the timeline to contend further into the future.
I am ready to surround him and Luka with better starting players, and trading is the only way this front office has ever been good at that (even Luka and Dirk, technically). I see no reason for the Mavs to sit tight at the deadline.
My greatest fear isn’t Kevin Love (that might be top 10). It’s another “run it all back, love our boys in blue” offseason. That, to steal KL’s line, would make me hate basketball.
RE: ROSTER TALK: Mar 25 TDL | Marc Spears: Mavs are shopping KP - KillerLeft - 03-10-2021
(03-10-2021, 02:13 AM)SweetFidelia Wrote: I’m just not ready to give up on Him yet, and I’m certainly opposed to trades that seem to push the timeline to contend further into the future.
I understand this logic. Really, I do.
My question is: Are we absolutely sure the team is currently on a track that will lead to true contention ever? I’m full-on worried that KP might not only be inadequate to that purpose, but possibly even a hinderance to it. If that’s the case, then isn’t it possible that pushing the EXPECTATION timeline for contention further into the future by dealing with the situation might actually have the effect of drawing any period of realistic contention closer to the present?
RE: ROSTER TALK: Mar 25 TDL | Marc Spears: Mavs are shopping KP - DanSchwartzgan - 03-10-2021
(03-10-2021, 02:10 AM)omahen Wrote: I think that is not really correct. Brunson has developed nicely and should be an asset. We have Green as a prospect and to lesser extent Terry. Than we have (theoretically) two picks and as much expiring salary as one wants. Perhaps not enough for a Beal package, but should be enough for a player, who will have to be overpaid. KP price was two picks, DSJ and a bunch of expiring contracts. I guess 2025, 2027 and Brunson (or Green) is a comparable package.
The question of course is - are we willing to spend all remaining assets for a player who will surely be overpaid in the summer.
Three points:
1. 25 and 27 would be the epitome of delayed gratification. If I'm a GM, I could be fired twice before the payoff from such a deal is realized.
2. We can't actually trade 25 right now. The 23 pick has to convey in 23 in order to trade 25 (it is top 10 protected in 23, 24 and 25).
3. I don't really want to trade Brunson. But, even if I did, I'm not sure he or Green is a fair comparison to DSJ...at the time. Yes, it looks like Brunson is the better player today. But, we've fast forwarded the video a bit and can say that in hindsight. DSJ still looked to have some upside...probably more upside than Brunson or Green...at the time the deal was made.
RE: ROSTER TALK: Mar 25 TDL | Marc Spears: Mavs are shopping KP - DanSchwartzgan - 03-10-2021
(03-09-2021, 09:54 PM)Jason Terry Wrote: That’s an important point and i do not think we will go into LT for 21/22. Mainly because of the impending Luka max though the following year and not because Cuban won’t go into LT(i think he will when we have all the championship pieces in place).
Having said that, there’s just not much available in FA this summer. Maybe there’s a specific situation like Dragic let’s us know he will come on board for the MLE. Outside of something like that i think if we were to bring in multiple guys(now) that we need to pay then we would just make arrangements this summer to make everyone fit. Bringing in Bogi would almost certainly mean either Hardaway or Richardson walks. And with KP off the books and we had Collins and Gallo then likely Maxi would play more 5 and there would be less a need to bring in someone expensive.
Overall i guess we need to be mindful of the cap ramifications, but with so many teams with space and so few decent players available I think it’s more important to bring in the talent we need first then figure it out later.
Just to be clear, I like your trade. I was making a general statement/admonition that there is a limit to what we can take on. Something involving Love for expiring contracts raises the same issue.
I put your deal in as KP/JRich for Gallo/Bogdan/Collins. It is one of the few KP deals where the Projected Wins for Dallas goes up. Setting aside for a moment whether it is fair or not, I plugged the 21/22 numbers into a spreadsheet assuming we max Collins at $28mm and retain THJ at $15mm. That takes us to $131mm give or take. Spending the MLE (there would still be a big hole at C) would take us right to the hard cap. To your point, we could dump WCS if we are going to sign Holmes or someone similar (or S/W Powell). So, this specific
deal can be made to work.
I wonder if we'd actually be better off shooting for Okongwu instead of Gallo? Obviously Gallo is more of a win-now player. But that gives us 3 guys in Collins, Gallo and Maxi who's best position is PF (and leaves us with Powell/WCS and maybe the MLE at C). Okongwu might end up being a defensive stud at C. You can live with Powell/WCS as backups. The other benefit to doing the deal like this is you can work under the cap with the Collins cap hold and have between $13mm and $17mm in space depending on what you do with WCS (or room for a 0-6 Max if you move on from THJ). I think I like Okwongwu/Space more than I like Gallo.
Edit: Okongwu's agent is Jordan Gertler who works for Excel (Schwartz).
RE: ROSTER TALK: Mar 25 TDL | Marc Spears: Mavs are shopping KP - dirkfansince1998 - 03-10-2021
(03-10-2021, 06:46 AM)DanSchwartzgan Wrote: 2. We can't actually trade 25 right now. The 23 pick has to convey in 23 in order to trade 25 (it is top 10 protected in 23, 24 and 25).
I think we already mentioned it a few times. The Mavs could lift the restrictions on the 23 1st round pick. Ideally in a trade that includes the Knicks as the 3rd or even 4th team. Not very likely but the best option to maximize the value of any trade package.
RE: ROSTER TALK: Mar 25 TDL | Marc Spears: Mavs are shopping KP - Chicagojk - 03-10-2021
(03-10-2021, 02:13 AM)SweetFidelia Wrote: Despite my disappointment in much of KP’s play, I’m just not ready to give up on Him yet, and I’m certainly opposed to trades that seem to push the timeline to contend further into the future.
I am ready to surround him and Luka with better starting players, and trading is the only way this front office has ever been good at that (even Luka and Dirk, technically). I see no reason for the Mavs to sit tight at the deadline.
My greatest fear isn’t Kevin Love (that might be top 10). It’s another “run it all back, love our boys in blue” offseason. That, to steal KL’s line, would make me hate basketball.
Your post sums up my thoughts. I would strongly prefer to give KP more time here. There are several things I want to see done better or differently, but as I mentioned earlier keeping KP is the easiest way to get to championship level imo.
Looking at the rest of the Western conference (and even some Eastern Conference teams), I really hope the Mavs don't look at their roster and think they are done with a few minor tweaks. I am not sure how they upgrade their roster and the decisions will be difficult ones. My timeline from last year is the Mavs would be ready to compete for a championship next year. I feel due some iffy decisions (not huge blunders) and KP not being what we expected yet they are a little behind at this stage. For me, making the playoffs this year and winning a series is an important building block. As you very rarely run the full playoff slate your first real run.
edit: let me add, I am not just looking to improve the talent on the team. I am looking for championship level players. Guys who you can trust in big games to not wilt from the pressure. When a big three needs to be made, that player is one you are confident they will deliver. So adding talent is one thing. But I want championship pedigree as well.
RE: ROSTER TALK: Mar 25 TDL | Marc Spears: Mavs are shopping KP - omahen - 03-10-2021
(03-10-2021, 06:46 AM)DanSchwartzgan Wrote: Three points:
1. 25 and 27 would be the epitome of delayed gratification. If I'm a GM, I could be fired twice before the payoff from such a deal is realized.
2. We can't actually trade 25 right now. The 23 pick has to convey in 23 in order to trade 25 (it is top 10 protected in 23, 24 and 25).
3. I don't really want to trade Brunson. But, even if I did, I'm not sure he or Green is a fair comparison to DSJ...at the time. Yes, it looks like Brunson is the better player today. But, we've fast forwarded the video a bit and can say that in hindsight. DSJ still looked to have some upside...probably more upside than Brunson or Green...at the time the deal was made.
1. Milwaukee paid 2025 and 2027 FRP for JRue. They also added 2020 Indiana FRP which went to Denver in the end.
2. Dirkfan already answered we could lift the restrictions. That's why I put theoretically. It would be an ultimate win now move.
3. I agree. It all depends on how one sees those young talents. New York obviously managed to destroy that DSJ value in half a year. If they thought they are getting a potential star, they surely didn't invest much effort into him. Brunson could be seen as valuable rotation player on extremely cheap contract.
I was having Collins in mind when I was writing that. Biggest dilemma is if he is worth the max. Seems like a lose-lose situation for Hawks GM. I think he is not worth max contract, I think he is less of a unicorn KP was when Mavs traded for him. He has some decent stats, but his team was never near playoffs and one should be very careful about stats on losing teams. On the other hand, I am quite sure some desperate team will offer that. Because every team looking to trade for him knows they will have to overpay him in a couple of months for a long time in the future, I doubt someone will be willing to brake the bank for him. Like Dallas case - do you really pay 2 FRP and Brunson (example) for the privilige of overpaying him in the summer? One would really have to be absolutely sure about him to bet the whole future on him and his fit with the team. That's why I think offers must be lower.
Based on this, the Hawks GM has the options:
1. accept a lower offer to get something for him. It would certainly not be welcomed by the fans
2. max him in the summer and overpay (there is absolutely no way GM could afford to let him go for nothing. That is not an option, if he wants to keep the job).
GM has basically two options:
1. Do a star trade, where Collins is traded for a very good win now starter level player(s) or very high ceiling guy. So Wiseman/Edwards types or (I don't know, contenders are so maxed out already) Hield types . I don't think Dallas has something like that to offer. Kleber and DFS are role players, THJ is expiring and might be gone in a couple fo months - also not sure if league realized he is different THJ than he used to be. I guess JRich and Brunson would be closest approximations to that.
2. Most likely imho - GM could delay his decision till summer. This way he keeps the team and competes for playoffs. Sometime they got to become healthier. Then he can accept like a first round pick or something to not match his offer (like Milwaukee-Indiana Brogdon trade). Or he could do a SnT (I don't think there would be much better options on the table than they are now). Or Collins might even further improve which would make the decision to overpay easier.
RE: ROSTER TALK: Mar 25 TDL | Marc Spears: Mavs are shopping KP - omahen - 03-10-2021
(03-10-2021, 07:32 AM)dirkfansince1998 Wrote: I think we already mentioned it a few times. The Mavs could lift the restrictions on the 23 1st round pick. Ideally in a trade that includes the Knicks as the 3rd or even 4th team. Not very likely but the best option to maximize the value of any trade package.
Thanks for explaining. I claim we can put a nice package, especially if trade partner would see something in Brunson, Green or Terry. I think the question is, is there anything worth betting whole future on? Because it is basically this one move, that has to make you a contender. Your options after that are extremely limited.
I like LaVine and Collins and I think they would improve the team, but I doubt Mavs would become contender. They are not bringing vet experience, tough defense and winner mentality. I would be way more comfortable if there would be a JRue type of player around - I would be comfortable to bet the team future thinking he is the missing link. The closest to that is Lowry (of course not worth the assets mentioned), but he doesn't seem interested.
I don't think a Thad Young, JJ Reddick type of move is worth wasting any assets. I don't think Mavs are that close enough that such a vet would make us a contender. If I would trade, I would trade for young(er) talent.
I also don't think it would be wise to jump decisions and move JRich after so few games and don't expect Mavs to do it. There was a reason they traded for him and they should wait till the end of season to see if they were right - playoffs might prove to be a very different story. Unless of course there is a great deal on the table. Same with KP.
I think Mavs will stay pat this offseason, unless a big trade comes along. Basically what Cuban said. Perhaps a minor trade like Iwundu for an expiring vet min. Assuming there will be no big offer on the table, there are a couple of decisions that they have to make and might make them do something:
- do you let Johnson expire or do you trade him for an equally bad contract that extends into next season. Like Rubio (just an example). Expiring big contract might come in handy.
- will they keep JRich and THJ? Many things could go wrong - Mavs don't want to keep them, they don't want to stay, they have too high salary expectations. If it looks like their story will end - is it worth trading them now to get something or play the FA game with no real talent available?
Nevertheless, let me finish with trade proposal. Since Reddick has been mentioned:
Johnson, Iwundu and draft compensation for Reddick and Hart. Hart doesn't really have a great season, he is already 26 and is up to an extension - does New Orleans really want to extend him? He could be a nice bench player though. But what would one do with all of JRich, THJ, Brunson, Reddick and Hart in the guard rotation?
RE: ROSTER TALK: Mar 25 TDL | Marc Spears: Mavs are shopping KP - StepBackJay - 03-10-2021
(03-09-2021, 10:06 PM)SleepingHero Wrote: I don't know why we aren't looking harder at a guy like Oladipo.
He can he had at a fraction of the cost of all these other guys, with a clear cut fit on our team.
If anything he's a better version of Richardson, who is also expiring as well. If the Mavs are hesitant on keeping JRich this summer, might as well try and get Dipo who is obviously looking at MIA this offseason.
What would be the trade for Dipo? Mavs have two expiring guys with some value (THJ, Rich) so I would imagine it would need to be a 3-way where Houston gets a pick or young player they like and Mavs aren't giving up future assets. The tricky thing with Dipo is he could just walk out of the building this offseason and you never see him again bc he wants to play in Miami or New York.
I would definitely be down with a trade whereby Mavs aren't giving up future assets but are shuffling THJ/Rich for Dipo who has a higher ceiling. I just don't know how you make it attractive enough for Houston.
If I am Houston maybe I can just trade Dipo to the Knicks for a pick and expiring and the Knicks (who have extra picks like Dallas' anyway) are confident that they can resign him.
Houston has to trade him or they are going to look terrible. I am not sure what his value is but its got to be more than just letting him walk for nothing. I think his agent is going to help steer him where he wants to go (likely not Dallas) and so essentially Houston will have to take back whatever that team is willing to give.
RE: ROSTER TALK: Mar 25 TDL | Marc Spears: Mavs are shopping KP - StepBackJay - 03-10-2021
I still like taking on an "overpaid" player as my favorite route to take at the TDL. Hield might be my favorite choice there. Gallo, Bog, Love being other options. I think also if you did pull the trigger on a KP/Wiseman trade but didn't want to take a step back this season you could have another trade that brings in one of those types to shore up the offensive drop-off from KP leaving town.
RE: ROSTER TALK: Mar 25 TDL | Marc Spears: Mavs are shopping KP - F Gump - 03-10-2021
(03-09-2021, 08:35 PM)DanSchwartzgan Wrote: Bobby Marks - "The Warriors owe Oklahoma City a top-20-protected first-round pick in 2021 from the Kelly Oubre Jr. trade. They will also send Memphis a top-four-protected first in 2024. The pick is top-one-protected in 2025 and unprotected in 2026. As a result of both trades, Golden State cannot trade its own first in any of the next seven seasons. The Warriors can trade the Minnesota (top-three-protected) 2021 first."
The above is what he said. I suspect his point is that there is a chance the 2021 pick will convey to OKC. So, you can't trade that one. There's a chance it will convey. So, you can't trade 2022 because you would be sending out two future picks in a row. They have traded 2024, so they can't trade 2023.
It seems like they could trade 2021 conditionally.
If that's what he said, then he just wasn't thinking at all, and completely whiffed. You said some of the following, but to be clear, GS has ample opportunity to move at least one (and maybe two) first round picks if they wish.
GS can trade the 2021 first rounder with restrictions (if it is 1-20).
GS can trade 2022 first rounder. They could even do so with NO restrictions.
GS can even trade a package of "GS 2021 first rounder, protected to fall within 1-20, and if it doesn't then _____" PLUS "GS 2022 1st rounder unprotected."
RE: ROSTER TALK: Mar 25 TDL | Marc Spears: Mavs are shopping KP - haveitall - 03-10-2021
I think that Dallas wants stars not role players. All of these trades don't move the needle. Midseason trades create their own problems. New players take time to integrate. People are proposing all of these trades but none of the players coming in are stars except maybe Collins and Wiseman. As far as Porzingis you need to be really careful here, remember Steve Nash age 26? He had injury issues too. Drummond would be a great fit here if bought out though he would probably end up on the Lakers.
Nash:
age 24: 40 games
age 25 : 56 games played
age 26: 70 games
Porzingis:
age 21: 66 games
age 24: 57 games
age 25: 20 games so far but will be much closer to like 65
RE: ROSTER TALK: Mar 25 TDL | Marc Spears: Mavs are shopping KP - StepBackJay - 03-10-2021
The Warriors are hot for a trade to take advantage of Curry's MVP-type season.
I know this won't make people happy but would Warriors give up that Minney pick if they wind up with Dipo and KP while dumping Wiggins?
Trade would be something like:
https://tradenba.com/trades/3XEz93_gM
Warriors are able to run with Dipo, Curry, Draymond, KP. Rockets would take on Wiggins but get that Minney pick. Mavericks would get Wiseman, Oubre and Tucker. Mavs would still be in play to make another move elsewhere if they wanted to.
RE: ROSTER TALK: Mar 25 TDL | Marc Spears: Mavs are shopping KP - omahen - 03-10-2021
(03-10-2021, 09:19 AM)StepBackJay Wrote: I would definitely be down with a trade whereby Mavs aren't giving up future assets but are shuffling THJ/Rich for Dipo who has a higher ceiling. I just don't know how you make it attractive enough for Houston.
I think it is very simple. Either you believe in him and pay the assets or you don't.
(03-10-2021, 09:40 AM)StepBackJay Wrote: Warriors are able to run with Dipo, Curry, Draymond, KP. Rockets would take on Wiggins but get that Minney pick. Mavericks would get Wiseman, Oubre and Tucker. Mavs would still be in play to make another move elsewhere if they wanted to.
You would really need to be low on KP to do this trade, imho