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+--- Thread: 2020-2021 ROSTER TALK: Archived (/showthread.php?tid=682)
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RE: ROSTER TALK: Mar 25 TDL | Marc Spears: Mavs are shopping KP - ItsGoTime - 02-28-2021
(02-28-2021, 03:00 PM)cow Wrote: That's not excusing some of the valid concerns about KP.It addresses the concern about any tiff he and Luka might possibly have and the kicking of the chair in game.
RE: ROSTER TALK: Mar 25 TDL | Marc Spears: Mavs are shopping KP - KillerLeft - 02-28-2021
(02-28-2021, 03:06 PM)mvossman Wrote: f we had a normal amount of time between seasons he comes into training camp healthy and we maybe (probably) are not having a lot of these conversations right now.
So I fall on the other side of this assumption, but that's because I started to think these things LAST YEAR, when he had already played himself into shape.
There is a chance your assumption is the correct one, and I absolutely hope it is. The Mavs' trajectory would be two seasons farther along your way than mine. It's what I hope is true, FOR SURE.
RE: ROSTER TALK: Mar 25 TDL | Marc Spears: Mavs are shopping KP - ItsGoTime - 02-28-2021
(02-28-2021, 03:04 PM)KillerLeft Wrote: Yes, because he played really well OFFENSIVELY.KP on defense is not the guy you’re describing.
It's cool if your defensive fetish, something you talk about constantly, only applies to guards. I don't get that, but whatever. For ME, it starts with the bigs. No amount of offense will ever change that perspective for me unless the team is being built around a big like Dirk or Jokic. As great as Porzingis is on offense, he's just not one of THOSE guys. That's not a criticism of him, there are like 5-10 of them in the history of the game.
RE: ROSTER TALK: Mar 25 TDL | Marc Spears: Mavs are shopping KP - KillerLeft - 02-28-2021
(02-28-2021, 03:08 PM)ItsGoTime Wrote: It addresses the concern about any tiff he and Luka might possibly have and the kicking of the chair in game.
Yeah, that's an interesting thing that happened, and might help us understand some things that have been going on, but it doesn't concern me at all, especially since they were able to fix it after a timeout and get the win.
Luka and KP are both young. Carlisle is in the position of trying to manage egos for the first time in awhile (at least in a way that matters). There all too smart not to figure it out on offense, and I LIKE that he's got some alpha in his dna. That's what Dallas WANTED when they traded for him.
Offensively, Luka and KP's games mesh really well, in theory. I'm still a believer in that. I do think KP's creation ability leaves a little to be desired for a max player, but all he needs is a few more high post/low post moves against smaller defenders (like last night) to solve that for me. I think this gets solved over time.
The problem, if you subscribe to the idea that there is one, is 100% on defense, imo.
(02-28-2021, 03:11 PM)ItsGoTime Wrote: KP on defense is not the guy you’re describing.
I just flatly don't understand how you could say that. Have you been watching the team? I know you have.
EVERYONE is saying that. Go listen to the first thing JVG said about Porzingis to start the game last night. You have hehe, so you can.
RE: ROSTER TALK: Mar 25 TDL | Marc Spears: Mavs are shopping KP - ItsGoTime - 02-28-2021
(02-28-2021, 03:14 PM)KillerLeft Wrote: I just flatly don't understand how you could say that. Have you been watching the team? I know you have.He has been coming back from injury and learning new teammates and probably new defensive schemes and playing his way into game shape. Why is the JJJ return from the same surgery point not given more credence?
RE: ROSTER TALK: Mar 25 TDL | Marc Spears: Mavs are shopping KP - cow - 02-28-2021
(02-28-2021, 03:08 PM)ItsGoTime Wrote: It addresses the concern about any tiff he and Luka might possibly have and the kicking of the chair in game.
Explains it sure, at least partially. I'm sure KP hears the criticisms as well. "I'm bad on defense, what about wonderboy?" "I'm not living up to my contract? That's hard to do when Luka dribbles the air out of the rock and my opportunities are limited." Sprinkle in some personal frustrations with the coach on what he's being asked to do and his mounting injuries, I'm sure he's struggling with a lot of demons.
It's also why I'd be careful thinking that trading him away is the easy answer. I'd think just about any other star is going to end up with some of those same thoughts to varying degrees. Let's say you could swap KP for Beal. We know Beal and John Wall clashed at times. I wonder how Luka's usage rate compares to Wall during that pairing.
We've also talked about the ideal pairings with Luka. Maybe it's better to have a bunch of Jarrett Allen, Joe Harris and RoCo types than another up-and-coming or prime alpha type players. If you want a second star, it probably needs to be the post or late prime guys like CP3.
RE: ROSTER TALK: Mar 25 TDL | Marc Spears: Mavs are shopping KP - ItsGoTime - 02-28-2021
(02-28-2021, 03:14 PM)KillerLeft Wrote: Yeah, that's an interesting thing that happened, and might help us understand some things that have been going on, but it doesn't concern me at all, especially since they were able to fix it after a timeout and get the win.Yep, I just think so many are pointing to the issue being fully coming from KP and not willing to see the flaw in Luka. I can’t imagine Beal getting that treatment from him in game and being ok with it.
RE: ROSTER TALK: Mar 25 TDL | Marc Spears: Mavs are shopping KP - ItsGoTime - 02-28-2021
(02-28-2021, 03:29 PM)cow Wrote: We've also talked about the ideal pairings with Luka. Maybe it's better to have a bunch of Jarrett Allen, Joe Harris and RoCo types than another up-and-coming or prime alpha type players. If you want a second star, it probably needs to be the post or late prime guys like CP3.I really have been preaching this type of team building for a while now. I think with the current FO limitations, the 2011 championship team is the perfect molding of how WE can get back there. I like having a second star potential guy. A third has been what I’m so much against.
RE: ROSTER TALK: Mar 25 TDL | Marc Spears: Mavs are shopping KP - KillerLeft - 02-28-2021
(02-28-2021, 03:24 PM)ItsGoTime Wrote: He has been coming back from injury and learning new teammates and probably new defensive schemes and playing his way into game shape. Why is the JJJ return from the same surgery point not given more credence?
Ok, yes! I agree with the above. He came back from this one quickly, and I give him credit for being a warrior in that way. And, I hope this is 100% of the cause of these issues. But:
1) I DID see signs of this LAST season. You can't convince me that I'm crazy, because there was talk of it by loads of basketball people I respect at the time.
2) Do you not feel, at this point, that he's the kind of guy who's simply more prone to major injuries than others? How many more will it take to convince you? Now, understand me here: If he sustains more injuries that sideline him than most players, BUT plays well when he's out there, that's FINE with me. We all knew that was part of the equation when the trade was made. But, if it takes 40 games after each of them for him to playable, once he comes back??? Man, I think that's a PROBLEM. And tbh, this is assuming that this is the majority of the cause of what's going on with him this year, which it MIGHT not be.
3) Again, it's not just major injuries. All of these guys are sustaining minor ones constantly (like his sore back) that either sideline them for a few games only or through which they can still play. All of these guys are affected by those nicks and bruises. What I believe we're seeing, independent of the MAJOR injuries everyone focuses on, is that KP's movement is impacted by those issues in a much more noticeable way than what happens with many other players. That scares the everliving crap out of me, because it's going to get worse and worse as he ages. Those extra 3-4 inches might be a BAD thing for him, imo, because when he's not right (and I mean REALLY right) his coordination looks rough.
If he can put the rest of this season together without looking like a statue out there, I'll feel MUCH better. I'm not even asking for great play consistently - just the ability to move. Last night was a good one for him, and there was a loss to Phoenix close to the beginning of that awful loosing streak where he looked pretty good to me. I might be missing 1-2 good performances, but they're definitely countable on one hand this season.
RE: ROSTER TALK: Mar 25 TDL | Marc Spears: Mavs are shopping KP - Kammrath - 02-28-2021
(02-28-2021, 03:29 PM)cow Wrote: We've also talked about the ideal pairings with Luka. Maybe it's better to have a bunch of Jarrett Allen, Joe Harris and RoCo types than another up-and-coming or prime alpha type players. If you want a second star, it probably needs to be the post or late prime guys like CP3.
I have been saying this since Luka's rookie year when Wes and DAJ couldn't handle the alpha and shadow of Luka.
Luka needs more talent around him, but I think the pecking order needs to be crystal clear and everyone needs to know this is Luka's team (at least while he is still young). If someone's ego isn't ok with Luka they need to go. Hence I have come to the conclusion in the last few weeks that KP needs to go, no matter what, at some point (unless of course KP has a sudden personality change, which I don't see happening). You can't have this constant competition WITHIN the locker room. That is toxic, the locker room needs to be united against all the other teams.
"A divided kingdom cannot stand."
RE: ROSTER TALK: Mar 25 TDL | Marc Spears: Mavs are shopping KP - KillerLeft - 02-28-2021
(02-28-2021, 03:29 PM)ItsGoTime Wrote: Yep, I just think so many are pointing to the issue being fully coming from KP and not willing to see the flaw in Luka. I can’t imagine Beal getting that treatment from him in game and being ok with it.
Absolutely.
I don't think Carlisle caused the situation, and I don't think either Luka or KP are more "to blame" for it than the other. But, ALL THREE of them need to figure out how to work past it. I suspect that every young team with more than one offensive star goes through this, at some point. I believe they will figure it out. If the team was winning, we wouldn't even notice or care.
(02-28-2021, 03:41 PM)Kammrath Wrote: If someone's ego isn't ok with Luka they need to go.
Well, DAJ, DSJ, Mathews and Barnes all probably feel like the MBT agrees with you.
RE: ROSTER TALK: Mar 25 TDL | Marc Spears: Mavs are shopping KP - ItsGoTime - 02-28-2021
(02-28-2021, 03:37 PM)KillerLeft Wrote: 1) I DID see signs of this LAST season. You can't convince me that I'm crazy, because there was talk of it by loads of basketball people I respect at the time.So to me, signs of something can’t be solidified like you have been doing before most of the other reasons are ruled out. I believe I have said before (and sorry if I haven’t) that I myself do not rule out what you have been saying. The toll of cumulative injuries is a real thing. I don’t understand how you can take such a hard stance when all these other things could still be factors though.
The rest of your post is a group of thoughts I can get behind.
RE: ROSTER TALK: Mar 25 TDL | Marc Spears: Mavs are shopping KP - KillerLeft - 02-28-2021
Good points being made by @"Kammrath", @"cow" and @"ItsGoTime" about the ego angle of all of this.
I agree with Kamm that it needs to clearly be Luka's team, and I think the MBT has established that to the best of their ability.
I agree that things MIGHT look better short term if 100% of the surrounding players were complementary mindset guys, but...in the LONG RUN, I think the only way to get to where I hope the team is going is for there to be quite a bit of talent at the top end of the roster. So, at some point, I think Luka must learn to accommodate some other egos around him. Maybe it's simply a matter of him going through some failure (finally) and developing a bigger appreciation for the idea that he's mortal?
RE: ROSTER TALK: Mar 25 TDL | Marc Spears: Mavs are shopping KP - StepBackJay - 02-28-2021
(02-28-2021, 02:38 PM)dynamicalVoid Wrote: Ha I knew the Jokic argument was coming! The guy is phenomenal...and slow...and unathletic haha
Yeah...you guys get what I am saying when I made the No Max comment. Bigs that are slow but have elite instincts or elite skills are different. I still would question Maxing them if their defense is suspect. Jokic...questionable defense(probably displays better IQ defense in playoffs when it matters)...but the dude is otherworldly...you have to max him. KP is a Unicorn but doesnt display elite skills. Hard to not Max him though so I dont fault the Mavs. Going forward I would make sure my paid big plays above average defense...no questions about it.
I heard somewhere that Jokic grades really well on PnR defense.
RE: ROSTER TALK: Mar 25 TDL | Marc Spears: Mavs are shopping KP - ItsGoTime - 02-28-2021
A group of $20ishM worthy players around Luka where one of them is invited to an Allstar game most years in my mind if the right kind of team around him.
RE: ROSTER TALK: Mar 25 TDL | Marc Spears: Mavs are shopping KP - cow - 02-28-2021
(02-28-2021, 03:41 PM)Kammrath Wrote: I have been saying this since Luka's rookie year when Wes and DAJ couldn't handle the alpha and shadow of Luka.
Luka needs more talent around him, but I think the pecking order needs to be crystal clear and everyone needs to know this is Luka's team (at least while he is still young). If someone's ego isn't ok with Luka they need to go. Hence I have come to the conclusion in the last few weeks that KP needs to go, no matter what, at some point (unless of course KP has a sudden personality change, which I don't see happening). You can't have this constant competition WITHIN the locker room. That is toxic, the locker room needs to be united against all the other teams.
"A divided kingdom cannot stand."
I wouldn't be sad to see KP go but mostly due to health concerns. Due to his age, Luka's going to run into these issues for the foreseeable future. Maybe that's a plus for the Wiseman idea that's been going around, at least Luka would be the senior in that pairing. I also think a modern Amar'e would work which adds some weight to the John Collins/Aaron Gordon ideas.
And while this is Luka's team, he needs some ownership in this KP tiff. A good leader knows Isiah's secret to team success. I don't think Luka done a good job of getting KP involved during the length of their pairing and he can play a bit too much hero ball. Ideally he evolves and shows us what Harden is showing with the Nets.
RE: ROSTER TALK: Mar 25 TDL | Marc Spears: Mavs are shopping KP - StepBackJay - 02-28-2021
(02-28-2021, 03:51 PM)ItsGoTime Wrote: A group of $20ishM worthy players around Luka where one of them is invited to an Allstar game most years in my mind if the right kind of team around him.
Well right having multiple borderline all stars would be nice. How do we get them?
RE: ROSTER TALK: Mar 25 TDL | Marc Spears: Mavs are shopping KP - ItsGoTime - 02-28-2021
I still think Turner is the right C to replace KP with. Collins might be another big ego guy. Doesn’t seem Gordon is. Omahen, figure out a 3 team trade that works with us getting AG and Turner with a great playing KP outgoing!
RE: ROSTER TALK: Mar 25 TDL | Marc Spears: Mavs are shopping KP - jesusshuttlesworth82 - 02-28-2021
(02-28-2021, 02:42 PM)ItsGoTime Wrote: If it is a problem with a big ego guy wanting his touches esp when he’s mostly doing good with the opportunities and Luka is waiving him off, what superstar is gonna come here and put up with that? I want the name.
Yep. I think Luka needs to be more Lebron and less Harden if he wants to attract star players to the Mavs. Rockets Harden and Lebron avg similar amount of assists but they do it differently. One is iso iso iso dribble dribble dribble kick out to a teammate vs move the ball more and get the hot teammate involved.
I mean we'll always side with and cater to Luka but it's obvious to anyone watching that sometimes KP's frustrations are warranted.
RE: ROSTER TALK: Mar 25 TDL | Marc Spears: Mavs are shopping KP - ItsGoTime - 02-28-2021
(02-28-2021, 03:57 PM)StepBackJay Wrote: Well right having multiple borderline all stars would be nice. How do we get them?Get KP going and playing closer to his potential.