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RE: Mavs Trade Ideas + Salary Chart - mavsluvr - 12-18-2019
(12-17-2019, 11:41 PM)Scott41theMavs Wrote:He is just suggesting that, in order to do successful trades, you have to be realistic about the value of your assets. Are you suggesting that the alternative to wallowing in a pit of despair is to pursue unrealistic trades on the theory that there's a sucker out there somewhere?(12-17-2019, 11:29 PM)DanSchwartzman Wrote:(12-17-2019, 09:34 PM)jesusshuttlesworth82 Wrote: Mavs fans: We love Steven Adams. He's underrated and would fit perfect on this team.
also Mavs fans: We'll give you a bunch of garbage and we want a 1st round pick back to absorb Adams contract.
Also Mav's fans: We have a roster full of no better than 7th man types on a championship team
Also Mav's fans: 3 of those 7th man types, a second rounder and a first rounder six drafts from now will surely get us a third star
The alternative to this kind of thinking is, "Welp, better enjoy Luka now, because the MBT has put us in a situation in which the roster cannot be improved in the next two or three years, so he'll walk when they can't get him any more help." I choose not to wallow in that pit of despair. In all seriousness, I don't know that they can get a third star (e.g. Beal) but they should be able to use their assets to get a real starter or two. If you don't think that's realistic, remember Howard-for-Butler/Hayward/DSteve. There are always suckers out there waiting to be fleeced if the Mavs can find them.
We are fans. We are free to consider whatever strategies we want, since nothing we configure will make a particle of difference in the real world. So in that sense, sure. The Mavs, however, have to know that they can't wave a magic wand and summon Kawhi for a fistful of low picks and a couple of guys who never play.
I don't know why you have a problem with another MFFL wanting to apply consistent logic to trades he dreams up. Or, why he would have a problem if you take a different tack.
Maybe what you really meant was that you feel he might be undervaluing the Mavs' assets. That is a legitimate subject for discussion.
RE: Mavs Trade Ideas + Salary Chart - ItsGoTime - 12-18-2019
(12-17-2019, 11:29 PM)DanSchwartzman Wrote: Also Mav's fans: 3 of those 7th man types, a second rounder and a first rounder six drafts from now will surely get us a third starMaybe some of them are saying that. I haven't seen it. I have seen something like that for solid starters though. Who needs another star when we have 2 that are just fine and young? Upgrading those 2-3 7th man types for 1 starter and 1 serviceable player on a bad contract on the other hand, we can absorb the loss because of how many of those 7th man types we have.
RE: Mavs Trade Ideas + Salary Chart - fifteenth - 12-18-2019
(12-17-2019, 11:41 PM)Scott41theMavs Wrote: The alternative to this kind of thinking is, "Welp, better enjoy Luka now, because the MBT has put us in a situation in which the roster cannot be improved in the next two or three years, so he'll walk when they can't get him any more help."I think this is a false dichotomy
New post:
The Mavs are top 4 in the West with the L's best offense in Luka's second year, and our cast of "7th men" just beat the NBA's best team, yet our two most active threads are about trades. I guess that's just how baseball go.
RE: Mavs Trade Ideas + Salary Chart - Mapka - 12-18-2019
(12-18-2019, 12:09 AM)fifteenth Wrote:(12-17-2019, 11:41 PM)Scott41theMavs Wrote: The alternative to this kind of thinking is, "Welp, better enjoy Luka now, because the MBT has put us in a situation in which the roster cannot be improved in the next two or three years, so he'll walk when they can't get him any more help."I think this is a false dichotomy
New post:
The Mavs are top 4 in the West with the L's best offense in Luka's second year, and our cast of "7th men" just beat the NBA's best team, yet our two most active threads are about trades. I guess that's just how baseball go.
Trading for magic beans is fun.
I also hatelove this thread:
I would love to find a way to get a pick for the TPE or a longer contract and a pick for Lee's contract.
I hate to trade one or two or three of our "non-starters-starters" for someone who is a "starter" elsewhere.
Would I like to have someone able to contain Kawhi or LBJ or the Freak. As I don't believe in Iggy there is nobody out there.
RE: Mavs Trade Ideas + Salary Chart - omahen - 12-18-2019
(12-18-2019, 01:44 AM)Mapka Wrote: I would love to find a way to get a pick for the TPE or a longer contract and a pick for Lee's contract.
This! It would give us a lot of options in the summer. In the meantime, just develop the core
RE: Mavs Trade Ideas + Salary Chart - Mavs2019 - 12-18-2019
This roster = Dirk´s whole career
One more star = Duncan´s whole career
As enjoyable as the one eventual championship has been for us fans, it must have been torture for Dirk until he got there. We got to the conference finals three times in 20 years with Dirk. The Spurs got their 10 times, and lost in the 1st round only four times. And it was not because Pop is a much better coach than Carlisle or Duncan is a much better player than Dirk. It was the supporting cast.
So we don´t need to rush things for an aging starter like Love or CP3, but we should be looking to add another big piece over the next 2-3 years.
RE: Mavs Trade Ideas + Salary Chart - jesusshuttlesworth82 - 12-18-2019
I dont really see a reason to make any trades right now unless what you're getting back is clearly better than the 6-8 role players you already have.
RE: Mavs Trade Ideas + Salary Chart - dirkfansince1998 - 12-18-2019
(12-18-2019, 02:42 AM)jesusshuttlesworth82 Wrote: I dont really see a reason to make any trades right now unless what you're getting back is clearly better than the 6-8 role players you already have.
This. Trades will make sense in the summer. Maybe a smaller trade involving Lee before the deadline but otherwise I would wait and see what THJs expiring, Warriors 2nd and Mavs 1st can net in summer.
RE: Mavs Trade Ideas + Salary Chart - omahen - 12-18-2019
(12-18-2019, 02:49 AM)dirkfansince1998 Wrote:(12-18-2019, 02:42 AM)jesusshuttlesworth82 Wrote: I dont really see a reason to make any trades right now unless what you're getting back is clearly better than the 6-8 role players you already have.
This. Trades will make sense in the summer. Maybe a smaller trade involving Lee before the deadline but otherwise I would wait and see what THJs expiring, Warriors 2nd and Mavs 1st can net in summer.
Trade like Lee for Dieng and pick would be excellent. It would also give us a big expiring contract as salary filler in the summer. Trading for Iguodala or something similar is just waste of assets. Very unlikely a move like that would be enough to take us all the way
RE: Mavs Trade Ideas + Salary Chart - Mapka - 12-18-2019
(12-18-2019, 02:49 AM)dirkfansince1998 Wrote:(12-18-2019, 02:42 AM)jesusshuttlesworth82 Wrote: I dont really see a reason to make any trades right now unless what you're getting back is clearly better than the 6-8 role players you already have.
This. Trades will make sense in the summer. Maybe a smaller trade involving Lee before the deadline but otherwise I would wait and see what THJs expiring, Warriors 2nd and Mavs 1st can net in summer.
I know this contract was horrible the moment it was signed. And THjr is as inconstant as it goes. But right now I would rather keep than trade him - he fits in so seamlessly even if he is cold.
RE: Mavs Trade Ideas + Salary Chart - DanSchwartzgan - 12-18-2019
(12-18-2019, 12:09 AM)fifteenth Wrote:(12-17-2019, 11:41 PM)Scott41theMavs Wrote: The alternative to this kind of thinking is, "Welp, better enjoy Luka now, because the MBT has put us in a situation in which the roster cannot be improved in the next two or three years, so he'll walk when they can't get him any more help."
I think this is a false dichotomy
New post:
The Mavs are top 4 in the West with the L's best offense in Luka's second year, and our cast of "7th men" just beat the NBA's best team, yet our two most active threads are about trades. I guess that's just how baseball go.
It is absolutely a false dichotomy. I wanted to post in the other trade thread yesterday (mostly talk of Holiday and Turner), but couldn't bring myself to do it (until this morning) because some of the ideas were so outlandish. I like a good fantasy trade as much as the next guy, but come on. People miss DL's capology knowledge, but the other thing he brought to the board was a dose of realism when it came to trade ideas. I didn't always appreciate his approach, but his willingness to call a spade a spade tended to make people more thoughtful about their ideas.
To your point about the most active threads, I think we as fans find ourselves in an interesting and frustrating position. There is absolutely no agreement on what we need. A defensive wing? Another big? Should it be a veteran band aide? Of, a youngster to grow up with our unicorns? There is absolutely no agreement on who is expendable. In fact, it changes from game to game. A week ago Curry is a dog. Two games later he is an indispensable cog. Almost everyone on the roster has had a stretch where they looked fantastic. The truth is we have a delicate balance that works pretty well. When you are a 55-ish (pace) win team, improvement is likely to be incremental and comes at some risk unless you have the ability to land KD like GSW did.
Timing is also a factor here. What we do now impacts flexibility in the summer. Given our ability to trade our first at the draft, we might be able to do something more impactful then. To me, we are a bit thin in the big rotation. Biyombo and Dieng and Henson and others have been mentioned. They would presumably come along with a small asset. But small assets can be combined with bigger assets later and we could use another six fouls in the front court in case any of Maxi, Powell and KP gets hurt for a week or two. Even turning the GSW #2 into a very late #1 would give us some flexibility to trade our own pick as we'd have a first to spare. That kind of thing seems a much more likely path than the incredibly disruptive 3 for 1's that were being proposed for Jrue yesterday.
RE: Mavs Trade Ideas + Salary Chart - ItsGoTime - 12-18-2019
(12-18-2019, 12:09 AM)fifteenth Wrote: yet our two most active threads are about trades.To be fair, trade season did just open up and that's what all the news is about.
(12-17-2019, 11:57 PM)fifteenth Wrote: I don't think Dan actually believes that our roster is made up of 7th man types.If he doesn't and thinks some are better than that, all the better value for trade.
RE: Mavs Trade Ideas + Salary Chart - fifteenth - 12-18-2019
(12-18-2019, 08:38 AM)ItsGoTime Wrote: To be fair, trade season did just open up and that's what all the news is about.
I don't actually begrudge the traffic in the trade threads. At the time of my comment I was just lamenting the lack of new reading material in the other threads. I was being selfish. I wanted a little Mavs fix before I went to sleep.
(12-18-2019, 07:28 AM)DanSchwartzman Wrote: It is absolutely a false dichotomy. I wanted to post in the other trade thread yesterday (mostly talk of Holiday and Turner), but couldn't bring myself to do it (until this morning) because some of the ideas were so outlandish. I like a good fantasy trade as much as the next guy, but come on. People miss DL's capology knowledge, but the other thing he brought to the board was a dose of realism when it came to trade ideas. I didn't always appreciate his approach, but his willingness to call a spade a spade tended to make people more thoughtful about their ideas.
To your point about the most active threads, I think we as fans find ourselves in an interesting and frustrating position. There is absolutely no agreement on what we need. A defensive wing? Another big? Should it be a veteran band aide? Of, a youngster to grow up with our unicorns? There is absolutely no agreement on who is expendable. In fact, it changes from game to game. A week ago Curry is a dog. Two games later he is an indispensable cog. Almost everyone on the roster has had a stretch where they looked fantastic. The truth is we have a delicate balance that works pretty well. When you are a 55-ish (pace) win team, improvement is likely to be incremental and comes at some risk unless you have the ability to land KD like GSW did.
Timing is also a factor here. What we do now impacts flexibility in the summer. Given our ability to trade our first at the draft, we might be able to do something more impactful then. To me, we are a bit thin in the big rotation. Biyombo and Dieng and Henson and others have been mentioned. They would presumably come along with a small asset. But small assets can be combined with bigger assets later and we could use another six fouls in the front court in case any of Maxi, Powell and KP gets hurt for a week or two. Even turning the GSW #2 into a very late #1 would give us some flexibility to trade our own pick as we'd have a first to spare. That kind of thing seems a much more likely path than the incredibly disruptive 3 for 1's that were being proposed for Jrue yesterday.
Great description of the state of the Mavs roster. I'm also hesitant to make too much change to a roster that's wildly exceeding our expectations and still growing. If we do need different pieces down the road, and those pieces can be had via trade, I tend to think that the continued growth and success of our current roster will make all of our pieces more valuable. And gaining information on what exactly we have on the roster will help us make better decisions down the road. Additionally, I'm not interested in torpedoing this season through the collateral damage of a multi-faceted trade.
For all of what you said, and the reasons I reiterate, I'd let this season ride and see what these guys can do and become.
RE: Mavs Trade Ideas + Salary Chart - ItsGoTime - 12-18-2019
(12-18-2019, 07:28 AM)DanSchwartzman Wrote: That kind of thing seems a much more likely path than the incredibly disruptive 3 for 1's that were being proposed for Jrue yesterday.I would have no problem with the approach you suggested in just getting some more draft assets with the 2 assets we currently have (Lee and the TE) along with some soon to expire contracts that can be useful on the court so we have more assets in the summer. I also have no problem being opportunistic now with some of the names being floated out there.
If we could get 1 of Turner, Favors, Jrue with the player assets we would use this summer, I think that's all the better. You get half a season to see if they fit, then if they don't, you have them without losing much value plus the first rounder to use to find the guy you need.
I keep saying this, but better players are just better. We need 3 for 1 (and 1 serviceable bad contract, so 2) trades to make up the value for the guys we want and think will fit. I'm not saying get a star (I don't think Jrue, Turner or Favors are stars), I'm saying get an incrementally clear upgrade.
RE: Mavs Trade Ideas + Salary Chart - fifteenth - 12-18-2019
(12-18-2019, 09:44 AM)ItsGoTime Wrote: I keep saying this, but better players are just better. We need 3 for 1 (and 1 serviceable bad contract, so 2) trades to make up the value for the guys we want and think will fit. I'm not saying get a star (I don't think Jrue, Turner or Favors are stars), I'm saying get an incrementally clear upgrade.
I don't think it's obvious that a 3 for 1 for an established starter is a clear upgrade. I think this team may still be growing. I say exercise caution when tampering with this season.
RE: Mavs Trade Ideas + Salary Chart - ItsGoTime - 12-18-2019
(12-18-2019, 07:28 AM)DanSchwartzman Wrote: There is absolutely no agreement on what we need. A defensive wing? Another big? Should it be a veteran band aide? Of, a youngster to grow up with our unicorns? There is absolutely no agreement on who is expendable. In fact, it changes from game to game. A week ago Curry is a dog. Two games later he is an indispensable cog. Almost everyone on the roster has had a stretch where they looked fantastic. The truth is we have a delicate balance that works pretty well. When you are a 55-ish (pace) win team, improvement is likely to be incremental and comes at some risk unless you have the ability to land KD like GSW did.I think the no agreement is indicative of how many needs we actually have.
I also dislike the game-to-game assessment of the value of our players, that gets annoying. I will say, we went through this with Dirk. When the players were playing well, there was no need for trade, when they didn't, trade everyone.
Those two things make it really hard to please everyone when proposing a trade, someone will surely not like your proposal no matter what it is. I have found that when you get one or two fans to say they think the trade is too much on our end that that is usually a pretty spot on trade for value.
(12-18-2019, 09:49 AM)fifteenth Wrote: I don't think it's obvious that a 3 for 1 for an established starter is a clear upgrade. I think this team may still be growing. I say exercise caution when tampering with this season.I find it hard to think that tampering with this season would blow up the goals we had at the beginning of the season, make the playoffs. I think we have a surplus of players that work in this system. Because of that I think we can take a bite into that surplus if the return is at least an incremental gain (the degree of increment will allow for a bigger or smaller bite). This was the philosophy I think Nellie had. Trade til the pieces fit. I've said I like the continuity we have with some of the players on this team, but there are, to me, some pretty obvious holes in our roster in terms of when we get to the playoffs. I don't mind looking that far ahead at this point, because it will take a pretty huge collapse to not attain our beginning of season goal. Even the Rondo trade got us into the playoffs.
RE: Mavs Trade Ideas + Salary Chart - aguiar95 - 12-18-2019
Watched Holiday (6-3) yesterday vs the Nets. Offensively he was very bad and on defense he guarded Dinwiddie to some degree (gave up easy layups, defended very well the perimeter, looked gassed at the end).
What are your thoughts on Satoransky? He could become available as CHI is underperforming and have Dunn/Lavine/White/(Possibly their 1st rounder) at the backourt. Have lengh (6-7) and seems like a decent defender (1.5 steals) and a good shooter (36% 3-pt and 87% FT) and passer (5 assists).
I think he would be a godd replacement at the SG. He (5M non guaranteed in 2021) and OPJ (if he takes the PO) come off the books before the 2021 FA.
The trade I proposed is:
DAL: OPJ, Satoransky, Felicio.
CHI: THJ, Lee, Jackson, 2 2nd rounders.
Is this enough? Doncic/Sato/OPJ/KP/Powell/Wright/Curry/DFS/Kleber.
RE: Mavs Trade Ideas + Salary Chart - HanspardsShowerVoice - 12-18-2019
The argument that better players are just better is true to an extent, but the idea that you're trading 3 for 1 assumes that the potential upgrade to player #4 is going to more than make up for the likely downgrades to rotational players 6-9 that you gave up in the trade. You would think after last year there would be more appreciation of how badly it sucks to have to give minutes to guys like Daryl Macon, Broekhoff and Trey Burke out of necessity. The idea that you just split up players into two tiers of "Good" vs. "Not Good" and that everyone in the "Not Good" tier is virtually interchangeable is bizarrely simplistic mindset.
RE: Mavs Trade Ideas + Salary Chart - fifteenth - 12-18-2019
(12-18-2019, 10:00 AM)ItsGoTime Wrote: take a bite into that surplus if the return is at least an incremental gain
I understand what you're saying. My position is that I think it's difficult to identify a clear incremental gain in a 3-1 trade that potentially changes team chemistry.
(12-18-2019, 10:00 AM)ItsGoTime Wrote: Trade til the pieces fit.
The thing that makes this a dicey proposition is that the pieces currently fit.
RE: Mavs Trade Ideas + Salary Chart - Scott41theMavs - 12-18-2019
(12-18-2019, 12:07 AM)ItsGoTime Wrote:(12-17-2019, 11:29 PM)DanSchwartzman Wrote: Also Mav's fans: 3 of those 7th man types, a second rounder and a first rounder six drafts from now will surely get us a third starMaybe some of them are saying that. I haven't seen it. I have seen something like that for solid starters though. Who needs another star when we have 2 that are just fine and young? Upgrading those 2-3 7th man types for 1 starter and 1 serviceable player on a bad contract on the other hand, we can absorb the loss because of how many of those 7th man types we have.
This is largely the point I was making. Some seemed to miss the "In all seriousness, though" qualifier. I was being as tongue-in-cheek as Dan, in a sense.
And yes, I believe it is in strict terms impossible - at least, prior to 2021 if they plan powder it as so many here want and expect them to do - for the MBT to improve this roster in an appreciable way without one or two significant trade ***wins***, as in, "wow, the Mavs came out like bandits," as in, like the Porzingis trade, the Juwon Howard trade, the RLF/Van Exel trade, the Jamison trade, or the Josh Howard trade. As in, get out of here with that horse puckey that I'm talking in terms of fairy tales. It hasn't happened once, it's happened many times.