2020-2021 ROSTER TALK: Archived - Printable Version +- MavsBoard (https://www.mavsboard.com) +-- Forum: Boards (https://www.mavsboard.com/forumdisplay.php?fid=1) +--- Forum: Dallas Mavericks and the NBA (https://www.mavsboard.com/forumdisplay.php?fid=2) +--- Thread: 2020-2021 ROSTER TALK: Archived (/showthread.php?tid=682) Pages:
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RE: ROSTER TALK: DAL with $22.7M - $34.4M in capspace | FA starts Aug 2, 5 pm - mvossman - 07-08-2021 (07-07-2021, 10:17 PM)cjeter24 Wrote: I really like the idea of overpaying Conley on a 2 year deal with a team option if Richardson opts in. An S&T of THJ for Conley depends on both THJ and Utah wanting to get that done. Seems unlikely. Utah is struggling with tax issues, and THJ may get a better offer from another team. I'm not sure why we wouldn't just sign Conley and Batum with cap space and go after bench depth with the room? RE: ROSTER TALK: DAL with $22.7M - $34.4M in capspace | FA starts Aug 2, 5 pm - omahen - 07-08-2021 (07-07-2021, 06:54 PM)Tyler Wrote: A few thoughts: A couple of thoughts. 1. Paying Oubre 20 mil would be just crazy. There is no way he is worth that much, totally agree. However, we have 34 mil of cap space if we let go JRich, THJ, WCS and Bobi. If Conley costs 25 mil, 9 mil is probably not enough for Oubre. That is why Kleber is going out and we have 17 mil of cap space. This is still way too much for Oubre. But if we keep WCS or sign Bobi for more than vet min, we are getting in a range it would make sense. 2. I think there would have to be more pieces in that alleged JRich and Kleber to Utah for Conley deal. It just doesn't make sense as it is. It makes little sense for Utah to take that salary. From Dallas perspective we can perhaps get someone who would take Kleber into cap space and send us a pick, although I think once teams sense that another one needs cap space, that space has price no matter what player you are sending them. Remember Warren to Indy deal - Phoenix paid Indy to take a good player on a good contract. So I would assume that if Kleber is included in the Utah deal, something more is coming back and Favors is by far worst salary Utah has. But then again - why would Dallas want Favors when we are already overpaying KP and Powell at centre. Besides, the only asset Utah has is the #30 pick (unless we go for some future protected picks) - the SnT can't be done on draft night. Still, Kleber for Favors can also be done as a separate deal. Would a three team deal make sense? Dal: Conley, Oubre; GSW: JRich; Uta: Kle. Even if Conley and Oubre are signed for a bit less, lets say combined 34 mil, we would need more salary going out to operate over the cap. Could we make it in a way to leave enough cap space to resign THJ? I guess if we could squeeze them to combined 30 mil, would THJ accept a deal starting with 12 mil? A question for capologists. Can we make a draft day trade, lets say Kleber for Favors and #30 and later exand it with additional pieces once FA opens? RE: ROSTER TALK: DAL with $22.7M - $34.4M in capspace | FA starts Aug 2, 5 pm - Branduil - 07-08-2021 If you're dumping Kleber to get more space then you have 17 million and it makes no sense to not just re-sign THJ. RE: ROSTER TALK: DAL with $22.7M - $34.4M in capspace | FA starts Aug 2, 5 pm - omahen - 07-08-2021 (07-08-2021, 03:40 AM)Branduil Wrote: If you're dumping Kleber to get more space then you have 17 million and it makes no sense to not just re-sign THJ. Unless you want to keep WCS, Bobi or even Reddick. RE: ROSTER TALK: DAL with $22.7M - $34.4M in capspace | FA starts Aug 2, 5 pm - omahen - 07-08-2021 With the lack of anything else I checked the always reliable Supes at Hawks board and here are a couple of Mavs related takes from last month: - KP and Luka are done - Mavs old regime was discussing KP, Powell, JRich to Houston for Wall, Gordon and House. Please note teams discuss huge amount of possible trades and all sorts of stuff come on the table - doesn't mean everything has same level of seriousness and acceptance. - Holmes is hot stuff with plenty of teams interested (Mavs not mentioned specifically). His team is asking for 80/4, teams thinking more along the 60/4 line. Sacramento wants to keep him - Collins situation is changing a lot. Mavs interested but Atlanta doesn't want Mavs players, they want to discuss draft compensation. RE: ROSTER TALK: DAL with $22.7M - $34.4M in capspace | FA starts Aug 2, 5 pm - Branduil - 07-08-2021 (07-08-2021, 04:04 AM)omahen Wrote: Unless you want to keep WCS, Bobi or even Reddick.So you're saying they'd choose ANY of those guys over THJ? RE: ROSTER TALK: DAL with $22.7M - $34.4M in capspace | FA starts Aug 2, 5 pm - DanSchwartzgan - 07-08-2021 (07-07-2021, 09:02 PM)Tyler Wrote: So here's the natural follow-up to all the point guard talk -- Assuming Dallas signs a starting PG like Conley, Ball, etc, what do they do with Brunson? Keep him to always have two playmakers on the floor, or trade him before he's a FA and is looking for a larger role? Keep him to always have two playmakers on the floor. Whatever system we run will be centered around taking advantage of Luka/Conley together. If it is good to have that starting combo attacking from all over the floor, I would think you'd want to run the same two playmaker scheme against backups. If VP has this right, I see: Three scoring playmakers: Luka, Conley and Brunson Three wing defenders: DFS, Oubre, Green Three bigs: KP, Maxi, Powell That's nine and you haven't spent the rMLE yet. I'm not a believer in all of this talk of trading Kleber to Utah for a guy you can sign outright. He's needed in this arrangement and there isn't a good way to replace him if you send him out. You have your Big 3 in Luka, Conley and KP. I assume DFS will start at either the three or the four. From there you can add Maxi for one kind of look or Oubre for another. It will be interesting how they mix and match the lineups when Luka sits or when KP sits. The improvement comes from Conley vs. THJ. He is your Chris Paul. He has the same shooting off the ball that THJ has but adds better playmaking and D. The marginal difference is huge (and stealing him cripples a competitor). Oubre, if it happens, is the Crowder move. I think it will cost more than the MLE as Crowder has never averaged 18 a night. RE: ROSTER TALK: DAL with $22.7M - $34.4M in capspace | FA starts Aug 2, 5 pm - Mavs2021 - 07-08-2021 (07-08-2021, 12:27 AM)SleepingHero Wrote: What kind of logic is that? Maybe the same logic that saw Chris Paul choose the Suns over the Mavs? RE: ROSTER TALK: DAL with $22.7M - $34.4M in capspace | FA starts Aug 2, 5 pm - Mavs2021 - 07-08-2021 (07-08-2021, 06:53 AM)DanSchwartzgan Wrote: Keep him to always have two playmakers on the floor. Whatever system we run will be centered around taking advantage of Luka/Conley together. If it is good to have that starting combo attacking from all over the floor, I would think you'd want to run the same two playmaker scheme against backups. If VP has this right, I see: Conley/Oubre is such a bad idea, they might as well bring Donnie Nelson back, if that is their idea of change. What position is Oubre playing here? If Conley comes with him, that means Oubre plays SF. The contract-size demands Oubre starts, which means Dorian goes to the bench in his contract year. LOL. I can tell you exactly how that ends. With Dorian leaving/being traded, because you disrespected him and f**** with his future earnings. One of the two positions we don´t have a problem, we go after Kelly Oubre (of all people) to create a problem. Makes no sense whatsoever. RE: ROSTER TALK: DAL with $22.7M - $34.4M in capspace | FA starts Aug 2, 5 pm - DanSchwartzgan - 07-08-2021 (07-07-2021, 09:23 PM)Kammrath Wrote: RE: Oubre So, I'll take the counter since I've already posted that this isn't my favorite. I like on/off, but if it was the be-all/end-all, JRich would have worked. He was positive every year but one in his career prior to Dallas and was -4.7 here. Wright was -4.9 here and has been positive in limited time with three teams since leaving. I tried to focus on Peak Oubre his last year in Phoenix. He did some good things. He was elite from 10-16 feet and very good getting to the basket. He even showed some promise as the PnR ball handler. This last year in GS he was sixth in the NBA among players 6'9" or shorter in "stops" which is the combination of defensive rebounds, steals and blocks. Dallas is a soft team and adding a smaller guard like Conley helps, but doesn't change the issue of softness. They don't have anyone who can display the athleticism and force that Oubre does. I can see the attraction. I don't think he's a $20 million player either, but if I've landed Conley, I'm looking for my Crowder equivalent next. I don't need another scorer. I think Oubre has a chance of working in the right role. There would certainly be space to get to the rim once he breaks past his man on a drive. Back to on/off for a moment. His numbers last year were just crazy. The lineups that worked, really worked and the lineups that sucked, really sucked. I wonder how much of a factor Wiseman was in that. Wiseman was a -14.6 in his minutes. Oubre's most used lineup included Wiseman was negative (Curry, Green and Wiggins were also part of that lineup). The next two most used lineups were nicely positive (7.3 and 10.9) and don't include Wiseman. Even superstar Curry was -9.2 any time he was on the floor with Wiseman last season. Wiggins was positive every year in Minnesota (surprisingly), but has been negative since joining GS. Draymond has been +9.8 for his career and was 9.6 overall last season. But, he was -9.8 when paired with Wiseman last season. I can make the case that Oubre didn't help. It is hard to find a positive two-man pairing with Oubre. But Wiseman was bone-crushingly bad last season and destroyed everyone's numbers whenever he was on the court. Would I feel better if Oubre had a better history of good on/off showings...absolutely. But, if I go back a year to Phoenix, all three of his most used five-man lineups are positive (6.5, 18.6 and 4.6) and his top eight four-man lineups are positive. That gives me some hope. The "idea of Oubre" is something that is needed here. Whether the actuality lives up to the idea is unknowable based on on/off alone. If it was, we wouldn't need to dump JRich. RE: ROSTER TALK: DAL with $22.7M - $34.4M in capspace | FA starts Aug 2, 5 pm - Branduil - 07-08-2021 (07-08-2021, 06:53 AM)DanSchwartzgan Wrote: Keep him to always have two playmakers on the floor. Whatever system we run will be centered around taking advantage of Luka/Conley together. If it is good to have that starting combo attacking from all over the floor, I would think you'd want to run the same two playmaker scheme against backups. If VP has this right, I see:How are you adding both Conley and Oubre while keeping Maxi? Losing THJ, JRich, and WCS only adds up to about 36 million, no? Anyway, with THJ, if he's leaving, wouldn't it be possible to do a 3-team trade? THJ traded to the team with cap space he's chosen, Conley traded to the Mavs, big TPE to Utah. A small piece like Burke can be added somewhere is the money needs to add up. That lets you still work over the cap so you'd get MLE+BAE. Personally I'm completely out on Oubre, he just seems like a more athletic JRich with a worse attitude. RE: ROSTER TALK: DAL with $22.7M - $34.4M in capspace | FA starts Aug 2, 5 pm - DanSchwartzgan - 07-08-2021 (07-08-2021, 07:48 AM)Branduil Wrote: How are you adding both Conley and Oubre while keeping Maxi? Losing THJ, JRich, and WCS only adds up to about 36 million, no? It is posted in this thread from this time yesterday. If Conley is your guy, you don't mess around. You sign him right off the bat. You can go two years $48 million with the room you have even if JRich opts in. If it takes more years, fine. I have no problem giving him a third year to correspond to KP's deal. If it takes more money, you put it in a non-guaranteed extra year that you assume he won't play. He did that in his last contract. You trade match for Oubre using JRich. JRich can go to GS or as you point out he can go to a third team and we can S&T for Oubre in the same deal. There is a huge range of possible salaries with JRich as the outgoing. I see the need to include Maxi in a Collins deal. I see no reason to do so in a Conley deal. In fact, it is counter productive to team building. RE: ROSTER TALK: DAL with $22.7M - $34.4M in capspace | FA starts Aug 2, 5 pm - omahen - 07-08-2021 (07-08-2021, 06:47 AM)Branduil Wrote: So you're saying they'd choose ANY of those guys over THJ? It is of course not that simple and I would appreciate if you would take time to consider the overall scenario, not just take a thing out of context as above. 1. Mavs don't control THJ, he is UFA 2. If Mavs first move is to bring in a guy like Conley and his price is 25 mil, you only have 17 mil left if you trade Maxi. Who says this is enough for THJ? 3. If Mavs bring in Conley, the only place for THJ is bench. How do you know he wants to stay in bench role? 4. Do you want to pay 17 mil for a bench guard, when you have Brunson as a score first guard and you want to give developmental minutes to Green? I would claim wing is a far bigger need than guard 5. Even if answer to all of the above is yes and THJ is still a go for 17 mil, you are not comparing him to WCS (or Bobi or Reddick) but to Oubre and WCS (or Bobi or Reddick). RE: ROSTER TALK: DAL with $22.7M - $34.4M in capspace | FA starts Aug 2, 5 pm - Branduil - 07-08-2021 (07-08-2021, 08:01 AM)DanSchwartzgan Wrote: It is posted in this thread from this time yesterday. If Conley is your guy, you don't mess around. You sign him right off the bat. You can go two years $48 million with the room you have even if JRich opts in. If it takes more years, fine. I have no problem giving him a third year to correspond to KP's deal. If it takes more money, you put it in a non-guaranteed extra year that you assume he won't play. He did that in his last contract.I mean there's a difference between getting a commitment from a guy vs. actually signing the contract... in fact you can't sign right away because of the moratorium. (And as we saw disastrously for the Mavs with DAJ) So even if Conley says he's coming here, that's not the end, it's the beginning. THJ would likely find a new team during the moratorium as well and then there'd be time to work on a 3-way trade if possible. It seems to me it would certainly be better for Utah to gain a large trade exception vs. just losing Conley for nothing. RE: ROSTER TALK: DAL with $22.7M - $34.4M in capspace | FA starts Aug 2, 5 pm - omahen - 07-08-2021 (07-08-2021, 08:09 AM)Branduil Wrote: I mean there's a difference between getting a commitment from a guy vs. actually signing the contract... in fact you can't sign right away because of the moratorium. (And as we saw disastrously for the Mavs with DAJ) So even if Conley says he's coming here, that's not the end, it's the beginning. THJ would likely find a new team during the moratorium as well and then there'd be time to work on a 3-way trade if possible. It seems to me it would certainly be better for Utah to gain a large trade exception vs. just losing Conley for nothing. I agree with this. We saw Boston pulling it off and they even paid Charlotte an asset to do them a favour. RE: ROSTER TALK: DAL with $22.7M - $34.4M in capspace | FA starts Aug 2, 5 pm - Branduil - 07-08-2021 As long as we're theorizing, it would be possible, but difficult to pull of Conley+Collins and still have the MLE+BAE. If they could do the THJ+Burke for Conley trade, they could also do Maxi+JRich+Brunson for Collins. These trades would of course decimate our bench to solidify the starters, but that's what the MLE+BAE is for. Now, in that case I could maybe see the value of Oubre as a bench scorer, if you can get him for the MLE. Add some cheap vet PG with the BAE like Avery Bradley or George Hill and you've got a nice team going. RE: ROSTER TALK: DAL with $22.7M - $34.4M in capspace | FA starts Aug 2, 5 pm - omahen - 07-08-2021 (07-08-2021, 08:26 AM)Branduil Wrote: As long as we're theorizing, it would be possible, but difficult to pull of Conley+Collins and still have the MLE+BAE. If they could do the THJ+Burke for Conley trade, they could also do Maxi+JRich+Brunson for Collins. These trades would of course decimate our bench to solidify the starters, but that's what the MLE+BAE is for. Now, in that case I could maybe see the value of Oubre as a bench scorer, if you can get him for the MLE. Add some cheap vet PG with the BAE like Avery Bradley or George Hill and you've got a nice team going. This is something that a great front office should think about. RE: ROSTER TALK: DAL with $22.7M - $34.4M in capspace | FA starts Aug 2, 5 pm - Mavs2021 - 07-08-2021 (07-08-2021, 06:53 AM)DanSchwartzgan Wrote: Three scoring playmakers: Luka, Conley and Brunson So I play this roster 12 months foward and our pay-roll looks like this: Luka 40 Porzingis 32 Conley 27 Oubre 17 DFS 13 Powell 11 Maxi 10 Brunson 10 Green 4 $164M pay-roll for nine players with ONE All-Star, one All-NBA team player, no All-NBA defensive player. RE: ROSTER TALK: DAL with $22.7M - $34.4M in capspace | FA starts Aug 2, 5 pm - mvossman - 07-08-2021 (07-08-2021, 04:04 AM)omahen Wrote: Unless you want to keep WCS, Bobi or even Reddick. If we dump Maxi for salary just to sign Oubre, I will lose my shit. I would much rather have Maxi. RE: ROSTER TALK: DAL with $22.7M - $34.4M in capspace | FA starts Aug 2, 5 pm - mvossman - 07-08-2021 (07-08-2021, 07:48 AM)Branduil Wrote: How are you adding both Conley and Oubre while keeping Maxi? Losing THJ, JRich, and WCS only adds up to about 36 million, no? I think it will actually be 34 mil. I peg Conley at around 3/72. That would start at 22. That gives you 12 left for Oubre. You could sign him to a 4/55 (which is more than he is worth). You would basically have the pick of the litter of the MLE level players. Like you, there are a lot of them I would take over Oubre. That trade makes the most sense since it does not rely on Utah taking on our players. I'm not sure how much they value a TPE with their tax issues and what does the third team get? The Mavs might have to pass around some seconds to make that happen, but in that scenario you could trade JRich for Oubre (or somebody better) keep THJ and spend the MLE. Of course looking at the post above, that would have 2022 salary at 180+. |