2020-2021 ROSTER TALK: Archived - Printable Version +- MavsBoard (https://www.mavsboard.com) +-- Forum: Boards (https://www.mavsboard.com/forumdisplay.php?fid=1) +--- Forum: Dallas Mavericks and the NBA (https://www.mavsboard.com/forumdisplay.php?fid=2) +--- Thread: 2020-2021 ROSTER TALK: Archived (/showthread.php?tid=682) Pages:
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RE: ROSTER TALK: DAL with $22.7M - $34.4M in capspace this summer - Mavs2021 - 04-02-2021 (04-02-2021, 12:53 PM)omahen Wrote: 1. Who knows. He certainly is way better than anything we have at PF. What Collins really comes down to is his relationship with Young. How much of a trade asset is Collins on a max contract, if the relationship with Young is permanently broken. In that case it ´s in the best interest of Collins and the Hawks to keep it quiet. Collins gets to pick his team, while the Hawks can extract a positive asset via a S&T, because they have a believable matching threat. If we have to give them Green and some pick swap so be it. Markkanen is the more realistic RFA target. I don´t think the cheap Bulls owner would match a max offer for him. But after such a stunt, you can forget the Bulls also trading us Lavine in the same summer. But there are other options like Beal, Ball, DeRozan etc. RE: ROSTER TALK: DAL with $22.7M - $34.4M in capspace this summer - omahen - 04-02-2021 (04-02-2021, 01:59 PM)Mavs2021 Wrote: I don´t think the cheap Bulls owner would match a max offer for him. Max for Markanen??? RE: ROSTER TALK: DAL with $22.7M - $34.4M in capspace this summer - StepBackJay - 04-02-2021 (04-02-2021, 10:29 AM)Mavs2021 Wrote: No it has not. The Bulls have lost all three games since the trade. They are 1-7 over their last eight. If Duffy comes to them in the summer and says: Just a heads up, Lavine wants to play with Luka, he won´t sign an extension. You might want to talk to the Mavericks now or lose him for nothing next summer. Ya I suppose that scenario could play out but I would have to see some article that says LaVine wants out. Bulls did a decent job at trying to build a win-now team. RE: ROSTER TALK: DAL with $22.7M - $34.4M in capspace this summer - BasketballJones41 - 04-02-2021 (04-02-2021, 01:59 PM)Mavs2021 Wrote: What Collins really comes down to is his relationship with Young. How much of a trade asset is Collins on a max contract, if the relationship with Young is permanently broken. In that case it ´s in the best interest of Collins and the Hawks to keep it quiet. Collins gets to pick his team, while the Hawks can extract a positive asset via a S&T, because they have a believable matching threat. If we have to give them Green and some pick swap so be it.I’m actually in favor of going the RFA route this summer. To me it’s the best way forward in regards to adding actual young talent. Which is where we still need to be. I would much rather add players that are on Luka‘s timeline instead of high cost 30 something-year-olds. And if somebody like Bradley Beal becomes available via trade you have to have young assets to get in that conversation and RFA is our best opportunity to restock the cupboard. I know we still have flashbacks of getting kicked in the Gortat’s but we’ve actually been successful the last couple of times we’ve attempted to acquire someone through restricted free agency. And there’s actually some pretty good ones available this year if we can find a way to get it done. Lauri Markkanen John Collins Devonta Graham Lonzo ball Malik monk Kendrick Nunn Zach Collins Frank Ntilikina Jared Allen Duncan Robinson There’s a few others that I didn’t list because I Either don’t think that they’re available or like THT, I don’t think it would be worth the hassle that it would take to get them RE: ROSTER TALK: DAL with $22.7M - $34.4M in capspace this summer - StepBackJay - 04-02-2021 (04-02-2021, 12:53 PM)omahen Wrote: 1. Who knows. He certainly is way better than anything we have at PF. If this works that's the way I see it going. ATL is okay with moving on from Collins if they feel like they get compensated properly. It's hard to say how much the Mavs would have to give up or even if they can piece together something the Hawks would want. I am of the camp that Mavs will be aggressive and make a competitive offer that ATL *could* accept. In my view the challenge would be outbidding other suitors who might have a better package. Looking back at the TDL we had this reporting: https://www.theringer.com/nba/2021/3/21/22343488/nba-trade-deadline-rumors-kyle-lowry-lonzo-ball-john-collins "League sources say Atlanta is receiving significant trade interest for John Collins from the Celtics, Kings, Mavericks, Pistons, and Timberwolves. The Hawks want one young player and a first-round draft pick to make a deal, or a package of similar value such as multiple first-round picks." The Celtics probably would have had to make a TDL trade to make the math work. I am not sure if they could do some kind of multi-team trade with Kemba + picks outgoing and Collins incoming on a max deal. It would be just like the Celtics to blow up our dreams. Minnesota did not want to trade Malik Beasley and they don't have cap space this summer. Pistons and Kings could create cap space. The challenge now for teams is that they have to do salary matching or some combination of matching + cap space clearing while also talking Collins into signing there. Mavs might at least be the best team from a talent standpoint in the running. RE: ROSTER TALK: DAL with $22.7M - $34.4M in capspace this summer - StepBackJay - 04-02-2021 You have to think the Mavs want to get stars in Luka's age bracket. Right now we have KP who is still young and qualifies. Collins at least has some star-upside and a high floor at the age of 23. Mavs can try to compete now against the old guard of Lakers, Warriors and so on and should but they are still at a big disadvantage. 4 years from now how much of the old guard will still be competing for championships? At some point there will be a changing of the guard to the new class of stars of which Luka is at the top (he's even near the top now). Looking at the East to me the Celtics core, Sixers core will still be relevant. The Bucks have sold the future which puts them in a bind but I imagine a Giannis centered team will still be very good. In the West, 4 years from now to me the best core under 30 would be the Mavs and Nuggets. By that point you would hope that Mavs are in true contention with the old guard struggling to hang on and Luka sitting top the throne of the younger stars. So to me I can see the MBT's plan as try to stay competitive now but build towards that window where can be a contender for many years. RE: ROSTER TALK: DAL with $22.7M - $34.4M in capspace this summer - Mavs03 - 04-02-2021 On Day 1 of free agency...I'm at John Collin's door and presenting him with a contract in the 4 year 110 million range (near the max). He already turned down Atlanta's offer of 4 years 90 million. Atlanta put themselves in a bind by offering ridiculous contracts to Gallinari, Bogdanovic, and Dunn (43 million combined salary). At least they shed Rondo's 7 million contract but they're in a tough spot. I think a core of Luka, KP and Collins is a formidable trio. Not sure how we can retain THJ and J-Rich in that scenario unless we trade for Collins and/or trade Powell and Burke (who make close to 15 million). Not sure what's going on with Terry but I would assume he can fill the Burke role. And I'm thinking Melli could fill in for Powell. RE: ROSTER TALK: DAL with $22.7M - $34.4M in capspace this summer - cow - 04-02-2021 (04-02-2021, 06:13 AM)Mavs2021 Wrote: I think it won´t take a lot of convincing to offer the Knicks a swap of 2023 top 10 protected for 2022 unprotected. I don't think you can do this. (04-02-2021, 08:27 AM)Branduil Wrote: Rather than complicate things, I think trading KP makes things simpler in the sense that I don't think the Mavs can get the assets to trade for Collins otherwise. The complication is that I don't think Atlanta would want KP so things would have to be routed through a third team. Complicated as far as more players, picks, and teams involved in the trade. (04-02-2021, 08:31 AM)StepBackJay Wrote: Also a thing we need to understand is that future firsts are first and foremost a store of value, like Bitcoin or currency. So ya a pick way into the future seems less valuable than one in the near-term but it's not always the case. For one, a future pick is one that takes up no salary or roster spots. Some teams have too many young players as it is. They don't need more guys taking up minutes, salary and roster spots. Trading picks that far in the future just doesn't seem wise for the Mavs. It ties your hands for trades until that pick is conveyed and you really don't know what your team is going to look like that far ahead plus you could always have a injury plagued season. RE: ROSTER TALK: DAL with $22.7M - $34.4M in capspace this summer - cow - 04-02-2021 (04-02-2021, 08:52 AM)DanSchwartzgan Wrote: I don't think the issue is how hard it is to get the middle class. I think the issue is the middle class is always Plan B while we chase the bigger fish first. Note the three guys in your example all went to LA. Players have 29 other choices and sometimes the other choices are more attractive. That's a fact of life, not a failing of the MBT. Who doesn't want to win a ring with Lebron? All roads lead to THT. RE: ROSTER TALK: DAL with $22.7M - $34.4M in capspace this summer - omahen - 04-02-2021 (04-02-2021, 02:32 PM)StepBackJay Wrote: In my view the challenge would be outbidding other suitors who might have a better package. Not at all. As we said many times before, it is Collins who chooses where he wants to go, because player has to agree with the SnT. Its either Atlanta because of his R status or where he wants. So the bigger job might actually be convincing him. RE: ROSTER TALK: DAL with $22.7M - $34.4M in capspace this summer - cow - 04-02-2021 (04-02-2021, 03:30 PM)omahen Wrote: Not at all. As we said many times before, it is Collins who chooses where he wants to go, because player has to agree with the SnT. Its either Atlanta because of his R status or where he wants. So the bigger job might actually be convincing him. We've heard grumblings about him not happy with his rung on the Atlanta latter (are we sure he's not better than Young?) so I'd think Dallas would probably be less desirable. He'd be competing with KP for the 2nd best player. If he wants to be "that dude", OKC could be his team and they have the war chest to build a team around him. Assuming they like him. RE: ROSTER TALK: DAL with $22.7M - $34.4M in capspace this summer - omahen - 04-02-2021 (04-02-2021, 03:38 PM)cow Wrote: We've heard grumblings about him not happy with his rung on the Atlanta latter (are we sure he's not better than Young?) so I'd think Dallas would probably be less desirable. He'd be competing with KP for the 2nd best player. The grumblings were actually about the coach and the style of play he allows. He is heart and soul of Atlanta and reportedly good buddy with Young. If we can believe media. Of course I have no idea about his preferences as a player. But one might think being part of star trio on a contender is more important than putting up stats on a mediocre (at best) squad. Until Grant enters the room But to present a bit more of an argument - Grant didn't get paid max money and would never be considered as a star in Denver RE: ROSTER TALK: DAL with $22.7M - $34.4M in capspace this summer - mvossman - 04-02-2021 (04-02-2021, 02:11 PM)omahen Wrote: Max for Markanen??? Please No! RE: ROSTER TALK: DAL with $22.7M - $34.4M in capspace this summer - cow - 04-02-2021 (04-02-2021, 03:45 PM)omahen Wrote: The grumblings were actually about the coach and the style of play he allows. He is heart and soul of Atlanta and reportedly good buddy with Young. If we can believe media. I think from a star trio perspective is that you need to consider that the dude is young and he probably has aspirations to be a max contract player. Ending up 3rd fiddle on a team makes that more difficult. Grant is who I was thinking of as well, except Collins is probably a level or two above Grant as a player if you align their ages. Winning isn't always the most important thing for these players and I don't really blame them. I'd want to maximize my generational wealth potential too If I were them. RE: ROSTER TALK: DAL with $22.7M - $34.4M in capspace this summer - ballsrchr - 04-02-2021 Well...while Dirk is my favorite Mavericks of all times (and I like a bunch of'em), Luka is getting right on up there as well. I keep hearing how good the Mavericks will be in 4 or 5 years with Luka, etc., etc., etc. So...am I the only one harboring a tiny bit of angst that Luka might not be happy with the direction the Mavericks are taking--and he might not be here in 4 or 5 years? Dirk was one of a kind as a player and for loyalty toward his team. I don't think we'll ever see another like him, nor do I expect Luka to follow in Dirk's footsteps. If the Mavericks let Luka slip through their fingers (and money is not the only factor)...I don't know what I'll do. After 40 years rooting for the Mavs it would be hard to consider moving to another team...but I might... RE: ROSTER TALK: DAL with $22.7M - $34.4M in capspace this summer - BasketballJones41 - 04-02-2021 (04-02-2021, 03:47 PM)mvossman Wrote: Please No! I don’t think it’s going to take anywhere near a max to get him. I bet we could work out a pretty low-cost sign and trade for him in the off-season. The bulls have moved him to the bench and it’s pretty obvious he doesn’t have a future there. I’d be willing to bet that his price is somewhere around $15 million to $18 million range. He’d give you a lot of the same things that John Collins would but on a cheaper deal. The other thing I like about him is that I don’t believe we would have any trouble convincing him to come here. I honestly wouldn’t be surprised if we were his preferred destination. RE: ROSTER TALK: DAL with $22.7M - $34.4M in capspace this summer - SleepingHero - 04-02-2021 (04-02-2021, 12:41 PM)StepBackJay Wrote: You guys are right. lol. I understand why the Mavs didn't trade for Dipo. But at the price he went for it's kind of shocking they at least didn't try. RE: ROSTER TALK: DAL with $22.7M - $34.4M in capspace this summer - omahen - 04-02-2021 (04-02-2021, 03:47 PM)mvossman Wrote: Please No! Of course. He is not near max worthy. 20 per would be most realistic paycheck for him, including the RFA overpay. Until this season he wasn't very efficient shooter and is not a factor on defense. He was even relegated to the bench after the TDL in favour of 33 year old vet Young. Not really a sign Chicago believes in him. (04-02-2021, 03:56 PM)SleepingHero Wrote: But at the price he went for it's kind of shocking they at least didn't try. It was actually reported they did try It was said Houston preffered to sell him to Miami RE: ROSTER TALK: DAL with $22.7M - $34.4M in capspace this summer - StepBackJay - 04-02-2021 (04-02-2021, 03:30 PM)omahen Wrote: Not at all. As we said many times before, it is Collins who chooses where he wants to go, because player has to agree with the SnT. Its either Atlanta because of his R status or where he wants. So the bigger job might actually be convincing him. Ya its possible but then I believe that Mavs are going to give him a max offer and there won't be many of those on the table especially not from good teams. That being said we have learned that you don't have to have cap space to be in the running so you could have a good team able to sweet talk both ATL and Collins into a deal. I have no idea what Collins wants. Mavs will give him a starting job on a high powered offense that's also a playoff team so that's a pretty good pitch. But maybe he wants to be "featured" like Jerami Grant and doesn't care if the team is good or not. Time will tell. RE: ROSTER TALK: DAL with $22.7M - $34.4M in capspace this summer - StepBackJay - 04-02-2021 (04-02-2021, 03:48 PM)cow Wrote: I think from a star trio perspective is that you need to consider that the dude is young and he probably has aspirations to be a max contract player. Ending up 3rd fiddle on a team makes that more difficult. Grant is who I was thinking of as well, except Collins is probably a level or two above Grant as a player if you align their ages. Winning isn't always the most important thing for these players and I don't really blame them. I'd want to maximize my generational wealth potential too If I were them. Mavs would offer him a max deal so he would be a "max" player. We can argue all day whether he should be a max player but the team that signs him will sign him to a max deal so even if he's the "third" fiddle he is still a max RFA guy with potential to be a max UFA in the future. |