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+--- Thread: TAKE DAT WIT YOU 9/8 (/showthread.php?tid=1197)
RE: TAKE DAT WIT YOU 9/8 - mavsluvr - 09-09-2021
(09-09-2021, 05:35 PM)Kammrath Wrote: I still don't buy into RC not having the "option." If he didn't then he functionally was NOT the head coach. Head coaches determine the rotations and usages and roles of players. Of course they take input, but they make the call.
I would imagine that was the case, at least as far as the formal organization chart went.
Organizational "input," especially from the boss, always comes with a greater or lesser degree of expectation that it will be considered with respect. I would suppose that Carlisle formally had the option as an adult with agency to tell Bob and Cuban where they could stick Bob's recommendations, but somehow thought it was a better option to consider them and give the ones he thought had some chance of succeeding a shot.
RE: TAKE DAT WIT YOU 9/8 - KillerLeft - 09-09-2021
(09-09-2021, 12:22 PM)Tyler Wrote: Most efficient season, yes. And also perhaps his worst season since his rookie year. IMO, that's the problem with over-relying on advanced stats. There's more to basketball and player development than spreadsheets.
I’m not talking about “spreadsheets.” I’m talking about scoring more points (in the same number of shots or fewer) than the other team. Feeding KP hasn’t resulted in much of that, so far, and that’s the entire point to basketball, no?
RE: TAKE DAT WIT YOU 9/8 - Tyler - 09-09-2021
I see it as a matter of player development. Rarely is the most efficient usage of individual talent immediately evident, especially when multiple variables are involved in a team environment. Sometimes there are growing pains that hurt near-term efficiency but are hugely helpful in the long run.
An extreme example would be never playing Green because the stats say that the team isn't very efficient when he's on the court. But the effect is that he never develops the necessary skills to fit the current paradigm and the team never takes the time to discover his best usage. And the end result is that you waste a good long-term talent in the name of maintaining the status-quo to maximize near-term efficiency.
The KP situation isn't quite like that, but I do think that the team got a bit lazy last year when it comes to putting him in a position to succeed. All I'm sayin' is that I'd like to see what happens when the coaches actively try to build him up rather than force him into a box. IMO, the guy who encouraged Giannis to embrace playing like a PG rather than stereotyping him as a center is a particularly interesting person to take on the KP challenge.
RE: TAKE DAT WIT YOU 9/8 - mavsluvr - 09-09-2021
(09-09-2021, 06:52 PM)Tyler Wrote: I see it as a matter of player development. Rarely is the most efficient usage of individual talent immediately evident, especially when multiple variables are involved in a team environment. Sometimes there are growing pains that hurt near-term efficiency but are hugely helpful in the long run.
An extreme example would be never playing Green because the stats say that the team isn't very efficient when he's on the court. But the effect is that he never develops the necessary skills to fit the current paradigm and the team never takes the time do discover his best usage. And the end result is that you waste a good long-term talent in the name of maintaining the status-quo to maximize near-term efficiency.
The KP situation isn't quite like that, but I do think that the team got a bit lazy last year when it comes to putting him in a position to succeed. All I'm sayin' is that I'd like to see what happens when the coaches actively try to build him up rather than force him into a box. IMO, the guy who encouraged Giannis to embrace playing like a PG rather than forcing him into the post is a particularly interesting person to take on the KP challenge.
Interesting. With KP having been in the league for so many years, and even having been an All-Star, he wouldn't usually be considered a prime candidate for needing much development, normally speaking, I would think. But of course, even the best players can always improve or add certain skills.
Do you have certain skills/development in mind that you think he should emphasize? Setting better screens? Overcoming his propensity to pop instead of roll? Developing the ability to take advantage of smaller players guarding him? I could see any of these, or other skills, working advantageously. I start running out of so many ideas when I think about the defensive end. Anything you think they should do, in particular? Things the coaches should help to be more effective, in addition to using him differently?
RE: TAKE DAT WIT YOU 9/8 - Tyler - 09-09-2021
I don't pretend to know the answers. I just feel that he is capable of more than what we saw from him last year. And based on what we've learned about some of the dysfunction on the coaching and analytics side, I think it's a reasonably safe bet that the problem wasn't all KP. We'll see soon enough.
RE: TAKE DAT WIT YOU 9/8 - Kammrath - 09-09-2021
(09-09-2021, 09:19 PM)Tyler Wrote: I don't pretend to know the answers. I just feel that he is capable of more than what we saw from him last year. And based on what we've learned about some of the dysfunction on the coaching and analytics side, I think it's a reasonably safe bet that the problem wasn't all KP. We'll see soon enough.
100% with you on this.
The good thing is that KP has all the motivation in the world to prove everyone wrong, because he has the built in excuse that it was the previous regime's fault. You could argue that this is one of, if not the last shot for him to prove himself as more than an NBA role player.
RE: TAKE DAT WIT YOU 9/8 - ItsGoTime - 09-09-2021
23/9/2!!!!!
RE: TAKE DAT WIT YOU 9/8 - mavsluvr - 09-09-2021
(09-09-2021, 09:19 PM)Tyler Wrote: I don't pretend to know the answers. I just feel that he is capable of more than what we saw from him last year. And based on what we've learned about some of the dysfunction on the coaching and analytics side, I think it's a reasonably safe bet that the problem wasn't all KP. We'll see soon enough.
Fair enough, thanks.
RE: TAKE DAT WIT YOU 9/8 - Mapka - 09-09-2021
(09-09-2021, 06:41 PM)KillerLeft Wrote: I’m not talking about “spreadsheets.” I’m talking about scoring more points (in the same number of shots or fewer) than the other team. Feeding KP hasn’t resulted in much of that, so far, and that’s the entire point to basketball, no?
You could argue, having fun is also a point of Basketball.
Feeding KP had mixed results. If he was guarded by a guard, he ate them without even seeing them.
He was overwhelmed if guarded by power wings, if they were allowed "a lot of contact". He has to manage that better.
RE: TAKE DAT WIT YOU 9/8 - SleepingHero - 09-10-2021
I for one am tired over spinning tires regarding KP.
I'm ready for the next season to start and I hope he proves everyone wrong. 3 weeks till preseason action. 6 weeks till season begins.
RE: TAKE DAT WIT YOU 9/8 - ClutchDirk - 09-10-2021
I remember a certain series in 2007 where a tall Euro had issues similar to what KP is having also...the question is will he add to his tool box and fix his short comings in the gym..
RE: TAKE DAT WIT YOU 9/8 - dirkfansince1998 - 09-10-2021
(09-10-2021, 01:34 PM)ClutchDirk Wrote: I remember a certain series in 2007 where a tall Euro had issues similar to what KP is having also...the question is will he add to his tool box and fix his short comings in the gym..
KP is several tiers away from even being mentioned in the same breath. Remember 2006. The same guy carried the Mavs to the finals. Was the MVP in the mentioned season. The Dirk vs wings issue was never as bad. Only was in issue in two playoffs series. 2005 Rockets. 2007 Warriors.
The useless "white euro big is the next Dirk" comparisations are already bad when they are mentioned prior to the draft. No need to continue them 5+ years into the career of an player.
RE: TAKE DAT WIT YOU 9/8 - ClutchDirk - 09-10-2021
All I did was compare their issues with certain defensive schemes and that KP needs to work on those issues just like Dirk and at the same level of commitment...I used tall Euro because they are both 7 foot and the defenses attacked them similarly...
And it also reminded me of the crap Dirk got flammed for then also...
RE: TAKE DAT WIT YOU 9/8 - michaeltex - 09-10-2021
KP needs to get away from the GI hairstyle and get shaggy.
I always felt Dirk played better when he was more natural. Seems like whenever he'd get trimmed, he'd go through a tough spell.
Anyway, my wildly unscientific take of the day.
RE: TAKE DAT WIT YOU 9/8 - ItsGoTime - 09-10-2021
23/9/2!!!
RE: TAKE DAT WIT YOU 9/8 - fifteenth - 09-10-2021
(09-10-2021, 01:34 PM)ClutchDirk Wrote: I remember a certain series in 2007 where a tall Euro had issues similar to what KP is having also...the question is will he add to his tool box and fix his short comings in the gym..
I don't have a problem with noting that Dirk had trouble with good defensive wings getting up under him and then comparing that to KP. Maybr KP could figure that out as well! I think that's what you're saying.
But then, @"dirkfansince1998" has a good point too. Dirk was so far advanced compared to KP at a similar time in the league that it detracts a little from the "KP can fix this too" argument.
We'll see!
Now talking about people who shouldn't be compared...
I was watching one of the hundreds of Luka magical highlight videos, and they had a segment showing lots of Up and Unders. I smiled remembering that I used to make use of the Up and Under in pickup games. :-)
RE: TAKE DAT WIT YOU 9/8 - jesusshuttlesworth82 - 09-10-2021
Mavs actually had more important things to worry about last year...like making the playoffs. It was not a given after the team struggled initially with all the Covid tests and such.
Maybe if they have a bigger buffer this year they can let KP work through inefficient stretches of basketball to see if he can get better.
RE: TAKE DAT WIT YOU 9/8 - dirkfansince1998 - 09-11-2021
(09-10-2021, 05:38 PM)fifteenth Wrote: Dirk was so far advanced compared to KP at a similar time in the league that it detracts a little from the "KP can fix this too" argument.
I just don´t see the comparisation. Dirk wasn´t struggling against a single defender. Couldn´t be defended 1v1. He was struggling against a defensive scheme that was build to stop him. Double or triple teams with long and athletic wings. Forcing him to give up the ball or take difficult shots over multiple defenders. Leaving his teammates wide open. Nelson tried to deny Dirk and dared the rest of the team to beat him. With an average shooting series they easily beat the Warriors but Howard was the only that showed up.
Contrary to the popular opinion on most Mavs boards I wasn´t out on Dirk after the series. I was out on the supporting cast that couldn´t make an open shot. Especially Terry. Thankfully he redeemed himself in 2011.
RE: TAKE DAT WIT YOU 9/8 - fifteenth - 09-11-2021
(09-11-2021, 06:34 AM)dirkfansince1998 Wrote: I just don´t see the comparisation. Dirk wasn´t struggling against a single defender. Couldn´t be defended 1v1. He was struggling against a defensive scheme that was build to stop him. Double or triple teams with long and athletic wings. Forcing him to give up the ball or take difficult shots over multiple defenders. Leaving his teammates wide open. Nelson tried to deny Dirk and dared the rest of the team to beat him. With an average shooting series they easily beat the Warriors but Howard was the only that showed up.
Contrary to the popular opinion on most Mavs boards I wasn´t out on Dirk after the series. I was out on the supporting cast that couldn´t make an open shot. Especially Terry. Thankfully he redeemed himself in 2011.
Oh, ok. You and Clutch were talking about two different things. You're right, of course, Dirk had to learn how to deal with double teams running at him. And the Golden State series shined a light on that. And it didn't take him long to learn from that series! I remember a few folks turning on Dirk after that, which was crazy.
BUT, what Clutch is saying happened too. Dirk had to figure out how to handle small defenders getting up into him. I'd have to research to remember when that was a focus, but I'm 99% that it was. I remember the discussions, and that he progressed fairly quickly to be able to punish that tactic.
RE: TAKE DAT WIT YOU 9/8 - soog - 09-11-2021
(09-09-2021, 12:48 PM)mavsluvr Wrote: Yes, I was struck by their manner of mentioning this. It was like they were taking it for granted that the listeners knew that it had happened, and they were offering exposition about the reason for it. That rumor has been buzzing around for awhile, but I don't remember if anyone had seemingly confirmed it yet.
They appeared to be attributing KP's trade request to his dissatisfaction with his role. They indicated that his role was recommended by Bob, and Carlisle accepted the recommendation. If KP wanted out "if the old regime stayed in place," then I have to interpret this as his being dissatisfied with Bob, rather than other parties. I say this because he was planning to stay when Carlisle was still slated as coach, I doubt that Donnie's role would have put him in any kind of direct conflict with KP, and the podcasters said Luka was not the problem.
Is Bob still with the team?