(12-04-2023, 01:14 PM)mvossman Wrote: [ -> ]You would obviously have to make that trade from a fit standpoint if nothing else. Do you think there is any chance that would be the deal?
I would think the only way to make it happen would be to find someone who sees Hardaway worth of a first and using that to try to get PJ in a multi team trade. He is quickly losing minutes to Miles Bridges now that he's back, hard to understand how much Charlotte values him or if they'd even make him available.
(12-04-2023, 01:14 PM)mvossman Wrote: [ -> ]You would obviously have to make that trade from a fit standpoint if nothing else. Do you think there is any chance that would be the deal?
Utah doesn't really have a need for THJ so it would have to be a 3-way deal if you're talking about Collins.
I would also rather the Mavericks not trade with Danny Ainge. He has a long history of winning unbalanced trades. I hope we're smart enough to recognize that's he's smarter than us. It's better if we just don't initiate that conversation.
I also don't think John Collins is a particularly good defensive player. He's a good offensive player. That's why he'll make over $25 million this season. He's talented but we should focus on players who are better defensively.
He would help our rebounding and gives us some good size though.
I think we should see what we have in OMax before we give up assets for a big wing. A better backup center remains our biggest need. I think Grant Williams and DJJ might be good enough when paired with Daniel Gafford or Andre Drummond on the 2nd unit.
If you're referencing PJ Washington, the counting stats and the advanced stats are wildly divergent. All advanced stats seem to hate PJ Washington. Whether RAPTOR, the LEBRON metric or EPM, they all say PJ Washington is not a good player. That's so consistent that I think we should avoid him.
(12-04-2023, 01:28 PM)surfpuckmd Wrote: [ -> ]I think we should see what we have in OMax before we give up assets for a big wing. A better backup center remains our biggest need. I think Grant Williams and DJJ might be good enough when paired with Daniel Gafford or Andre Drummond on the 2nd unit.
I think we've seen what we're going to get out of OMax this year. And maybe next season too. He's just not that good guys. He's not.
We cant wait 2 years for this guy to be ready.
And this 2nd unit with Drummond or Gafford, makes the whole unit look better defensively. A rotting corpse would offer more resistance and rebounding than Dwight Powell.
(12-04-2023, 01:32 PM)Nowitzki Way Wrote: [ -> ]I think we've seen what we're going to get out of OMax this year. And maybe next season too. He's just not that good guys. He's not.
We cant wait 2 years for this guy to be ready.
And this 2nd unit with Drummond or Gafford, makes the whole unit look better defensively. A rotting corpse would offer more resistance and rebounding than Dwight Powell.
I think its way too early to make that call on OMax. He looks to have legit NBA defense. If he can just hit a corner three he can be of some value soon. The rest will come at whatever his pace is. I don't think OMax is going to stop us from making any kind of deal. If he ends up being a useful rotation piece it will be a big win.
Powell gets about 8 rebounds per 26. Not great for a center, but better than a rotting corpse. I'm not sure why you are talking about Powell when Holmes has been the backup center recently. He is currently averaging 13 rebounds per 36, which is more than Gafford (historically they are around the same).
If Gafford came cheap I would be interested, but not sure why he would come cheap?
(12-04-2023, 11:34 AM)surfpuckmd Wrote: [ -> ]Here is a trade that would provide us with our ideal backup/platoon center. It would also clear some bad salary off our cap for next year:
Mavericks trade:
Maxi Kleber
Richaun Holmes
2027 1st round pick (top 10 protected, otherwise converts to 2, 2nd-round picks)
to the Wizards i.e.
Daniel Gafford
Danilo Gallinari
Mike Muscala
Gafford is one of the league's best rim protectors and rebounds well. He's also a good lob threat and an effective finisher at the rim. He's only 25 so he's the right age to grow with this team. He corrects our greatest problem which is hopelessness at the backup center position.
Gallinari and Muscala are expiring contracts. Their value is that we could use them later this season for salary matching in a trade to bring back a decent bigger wing. Or, we could simply let them expire this coming summer. My hope is our cap situation would then allow us to have the full MLE in the summer of 2024. We could use it on a big wing or use part of it to retain DJJ.
The Wizards might consider this as they have the league's saddest roster. They will need several years in the high lottery to acquire some talent.
Not sure how Dallas can acquire the 2nds in case the '27 doesn't convey.
I would rather the trade exclude Muscala and use Powell and Hardy with Maxi in lieu of Holmes. I would also attempt to make it a single 2nd rd pick up front, the '27 a pick swap for Washington with an option for an additional 2nd rd pick if they decline.
Probably an unrealistic proposal, but I do like upgrading the 4/5 prospects with Maxi near unplayable.
(12-04-2023, 01:47 PM)mvossman Wrote: [ -> ]I think its way too early to make that call on OMax. He looks to have legit NBA defense. If he can just hit a corner three he can be of some value soon. The rest will come at whatever his pace is. I don't think OMax is going to stop us from making any kind of deal. If he ends up being a useful rotation piece it will be a big win.
Powell gets about 8 rebounds per 26. Not great for a center, but better than a rotting corpse. I'm not sure why you are talking about Powell when Holmes has been the backup center recently. He is currently averaging 13 rebounds per 36, which is more than Gafford (historically they are around the same).
If Gafford came cheap I would be interested, but not sure why he would come cheap?
With Gafford, what would constitute cheap? He's year one of a 3 yr 40 million deal, but for a team thats going nowhere. Maxi is on year 1 of a 3 year 33 million deal. Would they take back Maxi if we add Hardy? Or do they want a 1st rounder?
And yes, its very early to declare anything with OMax. But in my opinion, with what i'm seeing, he's going to need another 12 to 24 months of seasoning before he's ready. Not saying he's toast, he's just bad right now and not ready to help.
And i'm talking about Powell, because we all know he will find his way back into the rotation. The Homes experiment will not last much longer. Speaking of the Holmes experiment, its only been going on a handful of games. So talking about Powell is pretty relevant. He will keep getting minutes unless we find a permanent solution. We've seen it for almost 10 years now.
(12-04-2023, 02:51 PM)Nowitzki Way Wrote: [ -> ]With Gafford, what would constitute cheap? He's year one of a 3 yr 40 million deal, but for a team thats going nowhere. Maxi is on year 1 of a 3 year 33 million deal. Would they take back Maxi if we add Hardy? Or do they want a 1st rounder?
Maxi value is tanked right now and board thinks Hardy has already tanked his value, so that package very likely would not get it done. It probably would take a first and if we somehow managed to get a first for Timmy, I'm not sure this is where I would want to spend it on.
(12-04-2023, 02:51 PM)Nowitzki Way Wrote: [ -> ]And i'm talking about Powell, because we all know he will find his way back into the rotation. The Homes experiment will not last much longer. Speaking of the Holmes experiment, its only been going on a handful of games. So talking about Powell is pretty relevant. He will keep getting minutes unless we find a permanent solution. We've seen it for almost 10 years now.
I think in the past most of his minutes were warranted, either because he was an effective bench big, or because we had no better options. He was always at his best with another big on the floor who could protect the rim and space the floor, but with KP and Wood gone and Maxi oft injured and struggling, I think its going to be much harder to find effective minutes for him. I hope Kidd tries Holmes in the second unit for more than a couple of games.
(12-04-2023, 04:19 PM)mvossman Wrote: [ -> ]I think in the past most of his minutes were warranted, either because he was an effective bench big, or because we had no better options. He was always at his best with another big on the floor who could protect the rim and space the floor, but with KP and Wood gone and Maxi oft injured and struggling, I think its going to be much harder to find effective minutes for him. I hope Kidd tries Holmes in the second unit for more than a couple of games.
I agree. I like Holmes much better for that role also. He's shown in limited time that he can give us more.
(12-03-2023, 10:25 AM)DanSchwartzgan Wrote: [ -> ]In one of the recent games there was some complaining about defensive rotations and guys not knowing where to be. Watch THJ sometime. He squares up on guys and tries hard and we all think he's playing D. But, watch him away from the ball. It isn't good. It is the same old story. We have 3 starters and a bunch of guys who are 5 - 9's in Green, THJ, DJJ and GWill. We need a starting four and we need better at the backup 5 (especially on those nights when Lively has foul issues). That Iztok video you posted makes a fantastic point. The way Lively is developing, by the end of next season (assuming we get that one more guy who pushes GWill to the bench), we are going to be trouble.
My favorite lineup to end a game this year was Luka, Kyrie, Green, Jones and Lively grouping in the Houston game.. I am not saying this lineup is what I want to close every game. But it gave me a visual of what I want to see moving down the road. Long, athletic and active. Lively is the key. He has been much further along than what I was hoping. He has to be a chance to be a unique big. Maybe not all star but a guy who is really, really valuable to his team.
That group that finished the Houston game was able make plays without scoring. The hustle plays and defensive possessions. I think they are still missing that big wing and maybe that one bulldog perimeter player. It may need to be two guys because one guy who can do this is going to be over 30 million in all likelihood. I am not worried about backup center. That can be a veteran minimum guy they rotate in and out if they get the big wing right. Instead of it being one guy, would two of DFS and PJ Washington work? Or switch out to other two B level wings.
My future vision was one of Luka and Kyrie would be on the floor at all times. Jaden would be the third guard to give us another guy who can attack and get buckets (that has not worked yet). We would have a fourth guard (EXUM?). Josh, OMAX, Grant and X would be our four wings. Lively would be our center. I still like that visiion, I just think we may need more size on the wing even if we use our assets to find one more guy.
(12-04-2023, 01:47 PM)mvossman Wrote: [ -> ]I think its way too early to make that call on OMax. He looks to have legit NBA defense. If he can just hit a corner three he can be of some value soon. The rest will come at whatever his pace is. I don't think OMax is going to stop us from making any kind of deal. If he ends up being a useful rotation piece it will be a big win.
Powell gets about 8 rebounds per 26. Not great for a center, but better than a rotting corpse. I'm not sure why you are talking about Powell when Holmes has been the backup center recently. He is currently averaging 13 rebounds per 36, which is more than Gafford (historically they are around the same).
If Gafford came cheap I would be interested, but not sure why he would come cheap?
That's a big IF to me. He might eventually become serviceable, but I don't see it right now—just my opinion.
(12-04-2023, 04:23 PM)Chicagojk Wrote: [ -> ]My favorite lineup to end a game this year was Luka, Kyrie, Green, Jones and Lively grouping in the Houston game.. I am not saying this lineup is what I want to close every game. But it gave me a visual of what I want to see moving down the road. Long, athletic and active. Lively is the key. He has been much further along than what I was hoping. He has to be a chance to be a unique big. Maybe not all star but a guy who is really, really valuable to his team.
That group that finished the Houston game was able make plays without scoring. The hustle plays and defensive possessions. I think they are still missing that big wing and maybe that one bulldog perimeter player. It may need to be two guys because one guy who can do this is going to be over 30 million in all likelihood.
Yes...now imagine if that player was slightly bigger/better than DJJ (and could rebound) and you still had DJJ coming off the bench.
I do still think backup center is an issue. It is probably a 24 minute position (maybe more in the playoffs) until Lively gets out of that 'rookie call' phase of his career (however long that takes). We have basic 'replacement level' guys on the roster already. I think we need more.
(12-04-2023, 04:40 PM)DanSchwartzgan Wrote: [ -> ]until Lively gets out of that 'rookie call' phase of his career (however long that takes).
I definitely don't think it's a coincidence that the best game he's had was also the one where the refs gave him the most freedom against the Thunder. He's definitely working against an unfair whistle so I'll be excited once that's over.
(12-02-2023, 11:38 PM)BolsDamols Wrote: [ -> ]O-Max made a bunch of hustle plays at the start of the run, so he wasn't totally worthless. Still a ways away from contributing on offense though..
Jaden Hardy on the other hand, ugh, its tough to see any positive right now..Cant get by anybody, a turnstile on defense, low IQ plays..
Until he develops any kind of offense, defense and hustle are going to be his calling card to stay in the league. Teams want scoring now from their bigs, and until he gets in the lab and works on his offensive game, he's still going to be operating at a deficit. I'm not trashing him, he just has more to work on than I originally thought when drafted. And Hardy I was never really impressed with either. He made his name in G-League Ignite by being one of their leading scorers. I think the Mavs bringing in Curry hurt him and set him back, as well as having THJ already on the roster. They all are score-first players and don't do much else. I look for any of them to be moved if the right deal comes along by the deadline. Lively looks to be a good pick for them, however.
(12-04-2023, 04:23 PM)Chicagojk Wrote: [ -> ]I am not worried about backup center. That can be a veteran minimum guy they rotate in and out if they get the big wing right.
I agree with everything else you wrote but this. I feel like this mentality is what's gotten into this mess where we're relying so heavily on someone who can't drink legally for another 2 years.
I do agree that if you get a big wing who can also play backup center then you're probably fine handling those minutes in the playoffs by just going small but I think getting another traditional center who is better/more serviceable than Powell/Holmes probably nets you like 4-5 wins over a season honestly. Those minutes with Lively on the bench are just so, so bad right now.
(12-04-2023, 04:40 PM)DanSchwartzgan Wrote: [ -> ]Yes...now imagine if that player was slightly bigger/better than DJJ (and could rebound) and you still had DJJ coming off the bench.
I do still think backup center is an issue. It is probably a 24 minute position (maybe more in the playoffs) until Lively gets out of that 'rookie call' phase of his career (however long that takes). We have basic 'replacement level' guys on the roster already. I think we need more.
Who is your primary target for that DJJ upgrade? Siakam?
I would like to see a healthy Maxi return and see if he can get back to what he used to be. What are you willing to send out at the TDL for that backup center role?
(12-04-2023, 01:32 PM)Nowitzki Way Wrote: [ -> ]I think we've seen what we're going to get out of OMax this year. And maybe next season too. He's just not that good guys. He's not.
We cant wait 2 years for this guy to be ready.
And this 2nd unit with Drummond or Gafford, makes the whole unit look better defensively. A rotting corpse would offer more resistance and rebounding than Dwight Powell.
I think he can be pretty good defensively by next year. I think his NBA future depends entirely on his ability to become a competent 3-point shooter.
Most similar prospects don't work out because they don't become competent shooters. There are some success stories though, e.g. our own Derrick Jones Jr.
I think Grant Williams and DJJ are fine this season as our fours. Either works fine with Dereck Lively. The issue is that they're both too small next to Dwight or Holmes. Too little size and rebounding in those lineups.
(12-04-2023, 01:48 PM)SkenfromLMF Wrote: [ -> ]Not sure how Dallas can acquire the 2nds in case the '27 doesn't convey.
I would rather the trade exclude Muscala and use Powell and Hardy with Maxi in lieu of Holmes. I would also attempt to make it a single 2nd rd pick up front, the '27 a pick swap for Washington with an option for an additional 2nd rd pick if they decline.
Probably an unrealistic proposal, but I do like upgrading the 4/5 prospects with Maxi near unplayable.
I believe we have two future 2nd-round picks available although one is Toronto's 2025 2nd. Perhaps we could swap that with another team for their 2027 2nd-rounder? Your point is valid though. That's an extra step.
Your offer would be Powell, Hardy, Maxi, a 2027 pick swap and a 2nd-round pick for Gafford and Gallinari?
I think that's probably around fair value but I don't know that the Wizards would want Jaden Hardy. They already have some serious chuckers on the roster with Jordan Poole and Kyle Kuzma. I think Poole and Johnny Davis likely occupy the same position on the floor. I'd also prefer to trade Hardy rather than our 2027 1st but I doubt the Wizards would accept the offer.
I think we'd have to put up our 2027 1st for Gafford, unfortunately. There are some other playoff teams that could really use another big. The Pelicans and Thunder both need another big and they have a lot more assets available than we do. Gafford would fit well on either roster. The Lakers would also love to have him.
I hoped to include the Maxi contract in that deal in exchange for some expiring contracts to give us some additional value there. Realistically, I think the Wizards would probably require our 2027 first with minimal protection plus Holmes in exchange for Gafford. I think that deal probably gives us another 3-4 wins this season.
What you all think of Kevin "Red Velvet" Heurter?
He and THJ have the exact same stats this year. Same contract size too.
Heurter is 25 years old. Possibly has fallen out of favor with fans. His game has taken a step back...speculation is because coach told him to work on his all around game not bombing 3's...and supposedly he has. Hes been decent few games Ive seen of him.
Sacramento is looking for a 3point shooting PF to spread floor for Sabonis to work.
Is THJ/filler for Collins still a thing? If it is...
Dallas In: Collins/Heurter
Sacramento In: Maxi
Utah In: THJ/Filler/Draft assets
Of course...Utah and Sac could just do a deal lol. Utah would get out from Collins money a year earlier and have THJ expiring next year. Sacramento gets their stretch 4 who fits with Sabonis and Fox. Mavs take on Collins contract which isnt great but get younger at PF and SG.
(12-04-2023, 04:46 PM)StrandedOnBeauboisHill Wrote: [ -> ]I agree with everything else you wrote but this. I feel like this mentality is what's gotten into this mess where we're relying so heavily on someone who can't drink legally for another 2 years.
I do agree that if you get a big wing who can also play backup center then you're probably fine handling those minutes in the playoffs by just going small but I think getting another traditional center who is better/more serviceable than Powell/Holmes probably nets you like 4-5 wins over a season honestly. Those minutes with Lively on the bench are just so, so bad right now.
I probably worded my response wrong. I will never turn down a deal that makes us better. I fully expect Lively to hit the wall or at least have bad stretches this year. I just wouldn't pay one of our few assets to get a veteran center at this point though.
As for next year, I probably shouldn't have said I don't care about backup center. I would look for guys like Hartenstein or Jerico Sims. A player who doesn't cost a lot but are fit to be good backup centers. Ideally if we find a big wing, there may be times where Grant fills in at small ball 5 in the future. I would also look to buy a second round pick and use it on one of those centers that always fall. A guy in the 5-10 million range or a throw in type in a bigger trade.