ROSTER TALK: Mavs favs for Vogel if no HC job exists. Kyrie handshake deal?

[DanSchwartzgan]

I'm totally fine sending out Powell for air, but no interest in doing that for Timmy if that is the thought?

Timmy for air isn't the thought, but no point getting into my thinking there.  Just pointing out the fit.

[DanSchwartzgan]

My sense of all the Westbrook "rumors" is that they have been wishful thinking for LA, and that's about it. IOW I don't think any doors have ever been there in the first place.

Instead I think LA's choices are to play him or to sit/waive him until his contract runs out.

It's hard to see any value to someone else in getting RW - you don't want him on the court, he certainly won't be a trade chip, you won't re-sign him, you he won't be attracting sign-and-trade offers when he's a FA. It's no value, and huge negative (he's owed massive money, that you have to pay him if you trade for him -- the kind that an owner wants lots of compensation for).

What makes it even more impossible is that LA wants YOU to send value to them (like Kyrie, or the Indy boys). As if he's someone you want. Sheesh.

I think the idea behind LA getting Turner and Hield is they would give up draft compensation.  I think too much is made of the LAL 27 and 29 picks.  Yes, there is a chance they could really suck by then.  But, they are a destination city and franchise and they could just as easily bring in two new superstars once Lebron and AD are gone.  Either way, the vision in such a deal is Indy getting draft compensation.  The question is how much.  Turner walks for nothing in 11 months and I'm not sure Hield is a ton more valuable than Hardaway.  Maybe it is a pick and a swap instead of two picks.  Much depends on protection or lack thereof.

[F Gump]

I think the idea behind LA getting Turner and Hield is they would give up draft compensation.  I think too much is made of the LAL 27 and 29 picks.  Yes, there is a chance they could really suck by then.  But, they are a destination city and franchise and they could just as easily bring in two new superstars once Lebron and AD are gone.  Either way, the vision in such a deal is Indy getting draft compensation.  The question is how much.  Turner walks for nothing in 11 months and I'm not sure Hield is a ton more valuable than Hardaway.  Maybe it is a pick and a swap instead of two picks.  Much depends on protection or lack thereof.

Wow, I don't think the value is nearly the same as you do. But who knows.

If I'm Indy, I don't think MT walks for nothing under any scenario. I think Indy is more likely to try to gauge the fit with Halliburton, then perhaps chase an extension -- with the fallback that they would swap him to someone for at least one pick by himself and probably 2 or more. I do think they would have a good shot to net something like that if he makes it to free agency, but wouldn't expect them to test it.

I also think Hield would be plus value to LA and would be priced accordingly. And getting rid of RW is going to cost more on top of that.

There's also the issue of the aging assets in LA. While they may have no choice, I think the risk of wasting another Lebron year - because of RW making everything unworkable - raises the stakes. And other teams know it ... desperation comes at a price.

[Scott41theMavs]

Wow, I don't think the value is nearly the same as you do. But who knows.

If I'm Indy, I don't think MT walks for nothing under any scenario. I think Indy is more likely to try to gauge the fit with Halliburton, then perhaps chase an extension -- with the fallback that they would swap him to someone for at least one pick by himself and probably 2 or more. I do think they would have a good shot to net something like that if he makes it to free agency, but wouldn't expect them to test it.

I also think Hield would be plus value to LA and would be priced accordingly. And getting rid of RW is going to cost more on top of that.

There's also the issue of the aging assets in LA. While they may have no choice, I think the risk of wasting another Lebron year - because of RW making everything unworkable - raises the stakes. And other teams know it ... desperation comes at a price.

I'm with you on this. RW for MT and BH is a massive negative value for two fairly positive ones. If I'm Indy's GM, it takes at least two, if not three, unprotected firsts to balance that out.

[SleepingHero]

I think Westbrook is out of the league by next season. After his contract runs out who's going to give him any significant role? 

Thunder might bring him back in a feel good type deal to come off the bench, but I seriously think WB would rather retire than take a role coming off the bench for a tanking team. 

Crazy how quick an athlete can go from hero to zero.

[Jason Terry]

My sense of all the Westbrook "rumors" is that they have been wishful thinking for LA, and that's about it. IOW I don't think any doors have ever been there in the first place.

Instead I think LA's choices are to play him or to sit/waive him until his contract runs out.

It's hard to see any value to someone else in getting RW - you don't want him on the court, he certainly won't be a trade chip, you won't re-sign him, you he won't be attracting sign-and-trade offers when he's a FA. It's no value, and huge negative (he's owed massive money, that you have to pay him if you trade for him -- the kind that an owner wants lots of compensation for).

What makes it even more impossible is that LA wants YOU to send value to them (like Kyrie, or the Indy boys). As if he's someone you want. Sheesh.

I agree with you here. I do think that LA has/will get to the point where they will take on a bad contract(s) in the deal in order to lower the cost of the dump plus get decent players. i.e. Fournier, Conley etc players with neutral or negative value

I don’t see how LA could mortgage their future too much more if it’s likely Lebron is only there the next 2 years then he leaves to play with his son

I think the hold up on a deal will be on LA trying to avoid as much future salary as possible. As it stands now they could bring in Kyrie as a FA after next year

[F Gump]

As it stands now they could bring in Kyrie as a FA after next year

Kyrie is probably their intended preference. And he is possible as a FA to LA on paper (where real-life issues can be ignored). But the big road block is that if RW is on the roster and basically the same no-value when the season ends, LA lacks an avenue to offer/sign KI to a max contract (not even remotely close, in fact) if they still have Lebron and AD.

The cap math became more rigid when LBJ extended.

They are kinda screwed if they do, screwed if they don't. Keeping RW is a dead end re KI. But trades sending RW away may bring back players that create a different dead end (players who are also untradable, with ongoing contracts, plus a loss of draft capital).

Not sure if that means they head a diff direction than KI as part of a big 3. Or would they try to persuade KI to work for cheap while LBJ and AD get theirs, or trade AD. But it's very possible that KI idea (as well as the idea of ANY max player to LA in 2023) could be DOA.

[cow]

I wonder what the trade market for AD would is these days.  Even when he was healthy the past season, he didn't look like the same player.  He's a generational talent and not exactly old at 29, but you can't stay on the floor and you have to hope his recent struggles were an aberration.  He certainly has value to teams in a win now mode (Chicago?) but I don't think I'd break the bank for his services.  If I were the Lakers and he plays well leading to the TDL, I'd consider selling high.  I guess that depends on the standing but I just don't see the Lakers as a contender.  

Acquiring Westbrook was a massive mistake but the Lakers but they are absolutely right to not trade '27 & '29.  I get they promised to maximize LeBron's title hopes but they put enough talent around him for one ring and he had his hands in the Westbrook trade.   I just don't think they can turn the current roster into chicken salad.

[ItsGoTime]

I wonder what the trade market for AD would is these days.  Even when he was healthy the past season, he didn't look like the same player.  He's a generational talent and not exactly old at 29, but you can't stay on the floor and you have to hope his recent struggles were an aberration.  He certainly has value to teams in a win now mode (Chicago?) but I don't think I'd break the bank for his services.  If I were the Lakers and he plays well leading to the TDL, I'd consider selling high.  I guess that depends on the standing but I just don't see the Lakers as a contender.  

Acquiring Westbrook was a massive mistake but the Lakers but they are absolutely right to not trade '27 & '29.  I get they promised to maximize LeBron's title hopes but they put enough talent around him for one ring and he had his hands in the Westbrook trade.   I just don't think they can turn the current roster into chicken salad.

Yes, and honestly I don’t think AD is the play, he still has time left to get back to where he was. I think a newly extended LBJ is who they should trade. I don’t expect it to happen, but it should while he still has productive numbers.

[DallasMaverick]

Yes, and honestly I don’t think AD is the play, he still has time left to get back to where he was. I think a newly extended LBJ is who they should trade. I don’t expect it to happen, but it should while he still has productive numbers.

I just remember how the Lakers dealt with Kobe's declining years.  He was massively overpaid, at that point, which prevented any kind of reasonable roster construction.

Just take a gander at this roster:
https://basketball.realgm.com/nba/teams/...rrent/2015

...but the front office was happy to lose games because the fans wanted to see Kobe, and perhaps they felt a rush of gratitude for all he'd meant for the city and the franchise.  And, of course, he wasn't about to take a discount.  And if they'd "cheaped out", the city would have turned on the ownership and management forever (Tom Landry, anyone?).  You don't fire an icon.

I sort of feel the same way about LeBron, at this point.  Yes, he's still pretty productive.  And it seems like he still puts butts in seats.  But roster construction is virtually impossible.

You could make a case that their roster problems have more to do with the acquisition of Westbrook than LeBron's cost/benefit ratio. But both have a lot to contribute.

[ItsGoTime]

I just remember how the Lakers dealt with Kobe's declining years.  He was massively overpaid, at that point, which prevented any kind of reasonable roster construction.

Just take a gander at this roster:
https://basketball.realgm.com/nba/teams/...rrent/2015

...but the front office was happy to lose games because the fans wanted to see Kobe, and perhaps they felt a rush of gratitude for all he'd meant for the city and the franchise.  And, of course, he wasn't about to take a discount.  And if they'd "cheaped out", the city would have turned on the ownership and management forever (Tom Landry, anyone?).  You don't fire an icon.

I sort of feel the same way about LeBron, at this point.  Yes, he's still pretty productive.  And it seems like he still puts butts in seats.  But roster construction is virtually impossible.

You could make a case that their roster problems have more to do with the acquisition of Westbrook than LeBron's cost/benefit ratio. But both have a lot to contribute.

How many more Westbrook moves is Lebron gonna force on management to make up for his rapidly declining skill. Kobe was a Laker lifer too, Lebron is a gun for hire. Trading Westbrook costs the team assets they can’t afford, trading Lebron salvages at least some of the assets lost in the AD acquisition. Hanging your hat on AD as opposed to Lebron has more than likely more years to get another championship team built.


I really think Lebron is the smart move for them, but I understand why they wouldn’t do it as well.

[cow]

Yes, and honestly I don’t think AD is the play, he still has time left to get back to where he was. I think a newly extended LBJ is who they should trade. I don’t expect it to happen, but it should while he still has productive numbers.

If it were me, the play would be AD and then LBJ.  I think you'd get the bigger haul for AD, partly because you could sell him to the highest bidder.  Then you play nice with LBJ and his camp and send him to a contender.  Jump starting the rebuild process makes a lot more sense to me than gambling 27 or 29 (or both) on some playoff success.

[ItsGoTime]

If it were me, the play would be AD and then LBJ.  I think you'd get the bigger haul for AD, partly because you could sell him to the highest bidder.  Then you play nice with LBJ and his camp and send him to a contender.  Jump starting the rebuild process makes a lot more sense to me than gambling 27 or 29 (or both) on some playoff success.

I think the difference is LA can get FA interest, so keeping AD and trading Lebron gets them assets to turn into another player that fits with AD. I mean, a tank for next year’s draft is gonna be a tough thing to do cause it looks like there are lots of teams setting themselves up to do that.

[Smitty]

Just checking in to see if Skin's promise of a big Mavs trade happened yet? Is the thread title still accurate ("gearing up for big trade for wing")? Any updates from anyone reputable?

[Kammrath]

Just checking in to see if Skin's promise of a big Mavs trade happened yet? Is the thread title still accurate ("gearing up for big trade for wing")? Any updates from anyone reputable?

Couple possibilities:

1) The KD situation completely "muddied" (as Skin put it) and even destroyed the possible moves the Mavs were looking to make this summer. 

2) The DM situation is holding up the NBA trade world right now. 

From what I have seen from the reputable sources I would guess number two is the case. But that doesn't mean the Mavs will suddenly and magically make a move if DM is traded either.

[cow]

I think the difference is LA can get FA interest, so keeping AD and trading Lebron gets them assets to turn into another player that fits with AD. I mean, a tank for next year’s draft is gonna be a tough thing to do cause it looks like there are lots of teams setting themselves up to do that.

Agreed.  And I don't think LA will do what I'm suggesting.  But as @"F Gump" points out, even with Westbrook off the books, there is only so much they can do with their cap situation unless players are willing to take discounts.

[F Gump]

Just checking in to see if Skin's promise of a big Mavs trade happened yet? Is the thread title still accurate ("gearing up for big trade for wing")? Any updates from anyone reputable?

As you know, this was sold as something just ahead, and that was all but certain and to wait and see what happens in August. The forum thread title has been maintained as if there has been something cooking all along. 

I don't believe there ever was such a trade looming. Just Mavs FO selling tix after a failed summer by peddling the concept that the Big Mystery Move is still coming (!!!!), and some passing along the propaganda (either willfully, or blindly). It's a Cuban go-to thing in such circumstances. Enjoy.

[sterlingmallory]

1) The KD situation completely "muddied" (as Skin put it) and even destroyed the possible moves the Mavs were looking to make this summer. 

Funny how something always happens every single summer that messes up their grand plans. Every year since the championship this has happened, other than 2018. You could put together an all star team with "almost Mavs" + Dirk: Paul/Iguodala/Pierce/Dirk/Dwight Howard.

[WildArkieBoy]

Funny how something always happens every single summer that messes up their grand plans. Every year since the championship this has happened, other than 2018. You could put together an all star team with "almost Mavs" + Dirk: Paul/Iguodala/Pierce/Dirk/Dwight Howard.

Truth.  Yet, when I mentally add the player performing "Christian Wood Highlights," factor in serviceable center McGee, a thinner Slovenian and pray for 2019-20 Tim Jr., I'm visualizing a stronger team.

In my mind, the talent gap between Dinwiddie & Brunson + one ball handler is the net loss.  

I still have confidence some sort of veteran PG can be acquired somehow.

[cow]

Just sign Schroder.