ROSTER TALK: Mavs favs for Vogel if no HC job exists. Kyrie handshake deal?

[sterlingmallory]

Saw a successful 3 team trade proposal that exchanged THJ for Seth Curry. Would you do it?

In a heartbeat, especially if we got back expiring contracts to make the trade work financially. Seth can bring most of the scoring ability that THJ provides plus can be a decent part time playmaker. Both are great shooters, but Seth is even better. Both suck defensively so that's a wash. Seth is an expiring contract so if we got back other expirings with him we could completely eliminate THJ's contract after this year. Give me Seth all day long. He's cheaper and fills our needs better. He's older than THJ but not that by that much: 32 vs 30.

[KillerLeft]

Saw a successful 3 team trade proposal that exchanged THJ for Seth Curry. Would you do it?

I would not. But I admit it's worth a conversation.

[sterlingmallory]

I would not. But I admit it's worth a conversation.

Why not if you got back another expiring to make the money work?

[KillerLeft]

Why not if you got back another expiring to make the money work?

Because I feel Hardaway is the better player. I like Curry, and I think it's a conversation because his ability to attack closeouts and create off the dribble is a little better than THJ's, but Curry, to me, is just not as good at getting shots off. I don't know if it's his size or just that he cares too much about his percentage to pull the trigger enough, but he just doesn't get enough shots off for me. 

Listening to guys like Redick, Duncan and others on podcasts, I've come to understand that relocation shooters really need to think in terms of "how to get 10 shots up" in a game. It's harder than we think for guys like THJ and Curry because the defense actively works to deny them attempts. They aren't the same as like Kleber, DFS, who just stand in one spot to occupy a defender. If those guys get left, they shoot. Simple. For guys like THJ, Curry, Redick, JET, Rip Hamilton, whomever, the challenge is how to create shot opportunities by moving off-ball. Seth Curry might make them at a higher percentage, but I feel like Hardaway is more effective at creating those opportunities.

[ItsGoTime]

In a heartbeat, especially if we got back expiring contracts to make the trade work financially. Seth can bring most of the scoring ability that THJ provides plus can be a decent part time playmaker. Both are great shooters, but Seth is even better. Both suck defensively so that's a wash. Seth is an expiring contract so if we got back other expirings with him we could completely eliminate THJ's contract after this year. Give me Seth all day long. He's cheaper and fills our needs better. He's older than THJ but not that by that much: 32 vs 30.

It was a legal trade that didn’t need expiring contracts to make it happen (Nets and Pacers were the other trade partners in a much bigger deal for them, Simmons and Harris to Ind and Turner and other stuff going to Nets). We just got the money savings.

[sterlingmallory]

Because I feel Hardaway is the better player. I like Curry, and I think it's a conversation because his ability to attack closeouts and create off the dribble is a little better than THJ's, but Curry, to me, is just not as good at getting shots off. I don't know if it's his size or just that he cares too much about his percentage to pull the trigger enough, but he just doesn't get enough shots off for me. 

Listening to guys like Redick, Duncan and others on podcasts, I've come to understand that relocation shooters really need to think in terms of "how to get 10 shots up" in a game. It's harder than we think for guys like THJ and Curry because the defense actively works to deny them attempts. They aren't the same as like Kleber, DFS, who just stand in one spot to occupy a defender. If those guys get left, they shoot. Simple. For guys like THJ, Curry, Redick, JET, Rip Hamilton, whomever, the challenge is how to create shot opportunities by moving off-ball. Seth Curry might make them at a higher percentage, but I feel like Hardaway is more effective at creating those opportunities.

Fair, Hardaway is the better overall player, but I don't think it's that big of a difference. Especially not enough to offset the benefit of 1) getting off of the last 2 years of Hardaway's contract and 2) getting a back up playmaker so we don't have to rely on Frank, Green, and Hardy.

[ItsGoTime]

Because I feel Hardaway is the better player. I like Curry, and I think it's a conversation because his ability to attack closeouts and create off the dribble is a little better than THJ's, but Curry, to me, is just not as good at getting shots off. I don't know if it's his size or just that he cares too much about his percentage to pull the trigger enough, but he just doesn't get enough shots off for me. 

Listening to guys like Redick, Duncan and others on podcasts, I've come to understand that relocation shooters really need to think in terms of "how to get 10 shots up" in a game. It's harder than we think for guys like THJ and Curry because the defense actively works to deny them attempts. They aren't the same as like Kleber, DFS, who just stand in one spot to occupy a defender. If those guys get left, they shoot. Simple. For guys like THJ, Curry, Redick, JET, Rip Hamilton, whomever, the challenge is how to create shot opportunities by moving off-ball. Seth Curry might make them at a higher percentage, but I feel like Hardaway is more effective at creating those opportunities.

I will say, Curry seemed to be unlocked a bit when he went to Phi. Wonder if the Seth we saw here is the same player? That’s what has me intrigued because otherwise, the Seth we had here? I fully agree with you (also assuming THJ embraces the bench role).

[sterlingmallory]

It was a legal trade that didn’t need expiring contracts to make it happen (Nets and Pacers were the other trade partners in a much bigger deal for them, Simmons and Harris to Ind and Turner and other stuff going to Nets). We just got the money savings.

Even better. Let's go ahead and call it into the league office please. I'm sure Cuban would love it too if it would get us out of luxury tax range.

[Scott41theMavs]

Even better. Let's go ahead and call it into the league office please. I'm sure Cuban would love it too if it would get us out of luxury tax range.

I thought Curry was excellent for us that year he was here, and was sorely missed when he left. I think he's as bad at defense as THJ, so that problem isn't solved, but I think he's a better creator, better at running the team if needed, and more efficient. Then there's THJ's albatross contract vs. Seth's bargain contract. The only problem, really, is that Seth would very likely be 1) a rental, or 2) a '23 overpay. He sure isn't going to give the Mavs a bargain again. His return would be TC all over again. Hopefully we wouldn't TC him, but I don't want to see the Mavs saddle themselves up with new albatross contracts either.

[KillerLeft]

Especially not enough to offset the benefit of 1) getting off of the last 2 years of Hardaway's contract and 2) getting a back up playmaker so we don't have to rely on Frank, Green, and Hardy.

Well, unless there's some kind of play for cap space coming that we don't know about, I have zero motivation to get off of Hardaway's contract. I think he's a good player on a good deal that's getting better by declining each year. I don't really consider it a negative, and if it becomes a problem, waiting until you need to move it will only make him/it more valuable, probably. 

I would trade Hardaway in a deal to make the team better - don't get me wrong. I just don't want to make the team worse by moving him. 

I also think Curry is more of a playmaker than Hardaway, but only marginally, and not in any truly meaningful way. Like, I wouldn't want either being the primary ball-handler for any portion of games. They're both off-guards, to me.

[Kammrath]

https://twitter.com/All_Things_Mavs/stat...4057609216

[mvossman]

I thought Curry was excellent for us that year he was here, and was sorely missed when he left. I think he's as bad at defense as THJ, so that problem isn't solved, but I think he's a better creator, better at running the team if needed, and more efficient. Then there's THJ's albatross contract vs. Seth's bargain contract. The only problem, really, is that Seth would very likely be 1) a rental, or 2) a '23 overpay. He sure isn't going to give the Mavs a bargain again. His return would be TC all over again. Hopefully we wouldn't TC him, but I don't want to see the Mavs saddle themselves up with new albatross contracts either.

I feel like the term "albatross" is being used very loosely here.  Timmy might be a few million overpriced right now, but with that descending contract if he has a season like his last two healthy seasons he will probably be an asset.  That is a long ways from "albatross".

Seth didn't "give the Mavs a bargain".  He had significant health concerns missing an entire season, and he played less than 19 minutes a game the prior season.  He was never getting more than the MLE at that time and I think part of the reason the Mavs traded him was health concerns (which look to be unfounded after the fact).

I do think Seth would be a significantly better option than anything we currently have as a third point guard option.  I know that is not his ideal role, but if I remember correctly he was very good in the P&R and just having him as an option for that role would make me feel better about this roster construction.

On the other hand, I don't think Curry is the kind of player they are looking for.  I get the feeling they are trying to go with size at all 5 positions.  I'm not sure they want to trade a key role player with size for one without.  Of course that would mean the Sexton rumors are BS, but then they never made any sense to me anyways.

[michaeltex]

I agree with the size comment. I think JK wants a big line up on the floor at all times.

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https://twitter.com/All_Things_Mavs/stat...4057609216

Is Pinson really so bad he'd be behind a wet-behind-the-ears rookie? Why is he taking a roster spot in that case?

[Chicagojk]

I agree with the size comment. I think JK wants a big line up on the floor at all times.

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Is Pinson really so bad he'd be behind a wet-behind-the-ears rookie? Why is he taking a roster spot in that case?

Good question.  I do think Pinson gets sort of a bad wrap.  He is a borderline NBA player.   Probably with a ton of others who either are hanging on in the NBA or ones that don't have NBA contracts and trying to get one.   

He has a very good basketball IQ, but is limited.   He is also not a great shooter.  If he could be a consistent open shooter, he might be a guy who could play some rotation minutes.   

Although it appears he is a really good teammate and teams are more willing to invest on those type of players sometimes.   

Personally, I will be disappointed if the 15 roster spot remains unfilled to start the season while putting a priority in resigning him.

[cow]

Pinson earned a roster spot last year with is play during all the COVID absences.  He looked very comfortable on the floor.  Borderline NBA player is a great description and could certainly fill the "break in case of emergency" role while he brings the off the court intangibles.

[IamDougieFresh]

                                                                                                          

G    GS  MP  FG  FGA  FG%  3P 3PA  3P%  2P 2PA  2P% eFG%  FT FTA  FT% ORB DRB TRB AST STL BLK TOV  PF  PTS

76  76 29.8 6.7 14.5 .461 3.0 6.9 .436 3.7 7.6 .484 .565 1.8 2.0 .903 0.6 3.8 4.4 2.7 1.2 0.4 1.5 2.6 18.2

82  82 35.8 6.2 14.7 .422 2.6 6.4 .401 3.6 8.3 .437 .509 1.6 1.9 .841 0.4 3.3 3.7 2.2 1.0 0.5 1.9 2.9 16.6

Who are these 2 VERY SIMILAR players and why does this make me want to drink bleach?

Hint: Single season stats from each player's second season.

[dirkfansince1998]

                                                                                                          

G    GS  MP  FG  FGA  FG%  3P 3PA  3P%  2P 2PA  2P% eFG%  FT FTA  FT% ORB DRB TRB AST STL BLK TOV  PF  PTS

76  76 29.8 6.7 14.5 .461 3.0 6.9 .436 3.7 7.6 .484 .565 1.8 2.0 .903 0.6 3.8 4.4 2.7 1.2 0.4 1.5 2.6 18.2

82  82 35.8 6.2 14.7 .422 2.6 6.4 .401 3.6 8.3 .437 .509 1.6 1.9 .841 0.4 3.3 3.7 2.2 1.0 0.5 1.9 2.9 16.6

Who are these 2 VERY SIMILAR players and why does this make me want to drink bleach?

Hint: Single season stats from each player's second season.

Hint: One makes the Mavs draft failure hall of fame. The other is a prime candidate for the basketball hall of fame.

[Chicagojk]

So would ya?

https://instagram.com/stories/tyterry_/2...item_share&igshid=YmMyMTA2M2Y=

[DanSchwartzgan]

I've been threatening to do a Collin Sexton post for a while, but just haven't felt motivated.

Then, I heard Dan on Hardwood Knocks do an entire pod on Sexton and Iztok on 77 Heaven talking about doing the deal that helps to set up "THE" deal in the summer of 23 (when you can trade 24/26/28 and do pick swaps on the odd number years once the draft has passed).  He pointed out the trade target might not be obvious in terms of current team need.  Maybe it is someone like Dinwiddie who has been devalued for some reason, but has upside from where he is currently valued.  Sexton comes to mind for me...especially in the mid-teens as that is probably a very trade-able contract.  I'd argue more trade-able than Hardaway.

So, here is the math.  THJ to Detroit for Kemba.  The Pistons can't quite fit that under the cap unless the send out a small contract like Lee or Livers, so it is two for one with someone coming back with Kemba.  I'll use Livers and now THJ fits under the cap in Detroit and Dallas is $575,000 under the apron.  The hard cap is solved as long as we end up below the apron when the dust settles.  If Cleveland ends up with Powell, Frank or Green and Livers, you can start Sexton at $14mm-$16mm depending on whether it is Frank or Green and depending on how much room you want under the apron for flexibility.

You still have to overcome BYC (but you have a $5mm trade spread again).  You also have to keep Cleveland under the tax, compensate them for Sexton and figure out a place for Powell to end up as Cleveland doesn't need another center.  None of that is insurmountable.  Cleveland has some cheap contracts at the end of their bench.  BYC can be overcome by sending one of those to a fourth team...presumably one like Utah that could use an expiring big.

That's enough detail for now.  What it comes down to is would you do expiring Powell for expiring Kemba?  Either is in the 11-15 range on the roster and wouldn't get regular minutes.  I say who cares.  Then, would you trade THJ for Sexton?  You get what you need in terms of bench creation and I think a mid-20's sixth man of the year who has scored 20+ in his career (but whose stock is down because of injury) would be way more trade-able than Hardaway.  Finally, would you add Frank or Green to the package to get Sexton's starting money into that mid-teens area and give Cleveland something to show for their trouble?

[Chicagojk]

Looks like Moses Wright won't be with Dallas on a two way spot this year.

https://twitter.com/CBAenEspanol/status/...8703577089