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THE GREEN MACHINE: The Subtle Emergence of Josh Green
https://twitter.com/themusicalbox48/stat...83879?s=46&t=DCjv3ge0LygOjWtn4mOutg
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Really important stretch for Green.
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I think Josh has made it.  Doesnt mean he needs to throw it in cruise control.

Josh, imo, should really really think about investing in hiring a ex-player that was known for driving to the rim and finishing in traffic or after contact.   This hired person should teach Josh exactly what he is looking at when driving, what happens when someone collapses from the left or right and what they would do to score.   He literally has no ideas after he decides to attack the rim.  He needs someone to teach him some ideas and what to do in a variety of situations after attacking.   I think if he paid someone to do this his attack game would grow significantly.   He has made strides...but he still has attacks where he had no idea what to do after defense solidified or collapsed and the attack got blown up specifically because Josh had no ideas or was not thinking 2 steps ahead.   I think this can be coached into him.

He also needs a left hand dribble.  Guy needs to work on this as well this off-season.

He picks up his dribble too early a lot of times as well.  He needs to work on this, too.

Anyway...he is in the league to stay now that the 3 is looking good.  Its polishing some offensive things.
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(03-11-2023, 11:45 AM)dynamicalVoid Wrote: I think Josh has made it.  Doesnt mean he needs to throw it in cruise control.

Josh, imo, should really really think about investing in hiring a ex-player that was known for driving to the rim and finishing in traffic or after contact.   This hired person should teach Josh exactly what he is looking at when driving, what happens when someone collapses from the left or right and what they would do to score.   He literally has no ideas after he decides to attack the rim.  He needs someone to teach him some ideas and what to do in a variety of situations after attacking.   I think if he paid someone to do this his attack game would grow significantly.   He has made strides...but he still has attacks where he had no idea what to do after defense solidified or collapsed and the attack got blown up specifically because Josh had no ideas or was not thinking 2 steps ahead.   I think this can be coached into him.

He also needs a left hand dribble.  Guy needs to work on this as well this off-season.

He picks up his dribble too early a lot of times as well.  He needs to work on this, too.

Anyway...he is in the league to stay now that the 3 is looking good.  Its polishing some offensive things.

Maybe Dominique Jones could help him with drives to the rim.
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Solid game tonight. 21/10/4 on 9-16 shooting.
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Good game. Completely different player when he's not confined to the usual offense...and that's why if I'm him, I'd leave in the summer of 2024 for another team with more opportunity and a better offensive system. 

I still think he has some good potential but he won't fully develop it here.
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(03-11-2023, 10:24 PM)loki Wrote: Solid game tonight. 21/10/4 on 9-16 shooting.

Yes.
But I feel like Green is still holding back.
He could have carried the team and won, but no -- he deferred to Hardy and THJ way too often.

It's like his 29 point game where it feels like he doesn't even want to hit 30 points.
Seems crazy but some people are just like that, they'd want to be as low profile as possible.
They want to succeed but doesn't want the shine that comes with it.
To me, Green is like one of those people.
He had 29 points -- a quota of points set in his head and he never demanded the ball since nor made any significant moves to score.
Explains why he isn't scoring when with Luka and Kyrie.

IMHo, it's another mental hurdle for him.
He needs to understand, Luka and Kyrie still needs help -- and he's the most equipped player on the team (aside from Wood who we know doesn't play significant minutes because of you know who).
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(03-11-2023, 10:32 PM)SwisherPrice Wrote: Good game. Completely different player when he's not confined to the usual offense...and that's why if I'm him, I'd leave in the summer of 2024 for another team with more opportunity and a better offensive system. 

I still think he has some good potential but he won't fully develop it here.

Yeah the MBT- Morons Been Thinking should already have a strategy and SOLUTION for Green´s contractual situation RIGHT NOW, cause there will be lottery teams that look at his recent featured performances as a #1 or #2 option in a high paced offense without Luka with different eyes. They´ll argue that he can defend, shoot the three and he just needs the right system and minutes to be at least a good 3&D starter for the next decade with the upside for more. That quickly translates into here are 80/4. Plus opposing teams know Cuban is weak. You can lure the younger players away. Here the door is slightly open, where other franchises have five security locks installed. Decnet chance Cuban will do his usual rara-dance of he´s not worth it and Green will do a Brunson.

Of course there is a chance Green´s personality is what it is and he´ll always defer to players that he thinks are better, but usually lottery teams need a while to find these players. Until then Green can ball, increase his trade value and you can flip a player that cost you nothing in free agency for an asset gain.

Thinking about it in light of the Brunson departure, the handling of the Green situation might very well be the eucalyptus that breaks the camel´s back and leads to Luka´s trade request.
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The rant below is not against Green. He is great and really took a step forward. But, I am pretty much fed up with this high paced offense myth. Game yesterday was slow, actually even a bit slower than usual Mavs game. Green minutes were especially slow. Mavs offense was same as every game, they were running same sets, the only significant difference was there was no one who could run a PnR. The result was even a couple of more three point attempts as on average. The data is not out yet, but I am pretty sure there were far less open threes than usual. Defense was still total crap, just a lay-up line or the open three for depleted Memphis team. Tillman (!!!) was feasting on offensive boards. I didn't check the numbers, but I am pretty sure Memphis was just feasting in the paint, same as every other team Mavs play against, no matter who is in the line-up.
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(03-12-2023, 04:21 AM)Mavs2021 Wrote: Yeah the MBT- Morons Been Thinking should already have a strategy and SOLUTION for Green´s contractual situation RIGHT NOW, cause there will be lottery teams that look at his recent featured performances as a #1 or #2 option in a high paced offense without Luka with different eyes. They´ll argue that he can defend, shoot the three and he just needs the right system and minutes to be at least a good 3&D starter for the next decade with the upside for more. That quickly translates into here are 80/4. Plus opposing teams know Cuban is weak. You can lure the younger players away. Here the door is slightly open, where other franchises have five security locks installed. Decnet chance Cuban will do his usual rara-dance of he´s not worth it and Green will do a Brunson.

Of course there is a chance Green´s personality is what it is and he´ll always defer to players that he thinks are better, but usually lottery teams need a while to find these players. Until then Green can ball, increase his trade value and you can flip a player that cost you nothing in free agency for an asset gain.

Thinking about it in light of the Brunson departure, the handling of the Green situation might very well be the eucalyptus that breaks the camel´s back and leads to Luka´s trade request.


I don't think other team's think he's ready to make a claim for being a team's number 1 or 2 option.  He's not there yet. But his development has been on a meteoric rise for sure, especially with his athleticism, hustle, and defense.  Needs to get consistent on O.
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It would seem an easy decision to extend him this summer.  Give Green security and tie him up for 3-4 more years.  Probably get him at a little discount to our position and Green gets 40 million or something to not worry about money for the rest of his life.

Not even our front office can score this up right!  Oh wait.
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(03-11-2023, 02:45 PM)DallasMaverick Wrote: Maybe Dominique Jones could help him with drives to the rim.

Ha..that is a name from the past.  I do t think I followed that draft much that year.  I don’t think I knew anything about Dominique.  Just looked up that draft to see who the mavs passed up with that pick.  That was an awful draft in 2010.
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Rainbow 
(03-11-2023, 10:37 PM)Razzmatazz_Hopskidillydoo Wrote: Yes.
But I feel like Green is still holding back.
He could have carried the team and won, but no -- he deferred to Hardy and THJ way too often.

It's like his 29 point game where it feels like he doesn't even want to hit 30 points.
Seems crazy but some people are just like that, they'd want to be as low profile as possible.
They want to succeed but doesn't want the shine that comes with it.
To me, Green is like one of those people.
He had 29 points -- a quota of points set in his head and he never demanded the ball since nor made any significant moves to score.
Explains why he isn't scoring when with Luka and Kyrie.

IMHo, it's another mental hurdle for him.
He needs to understand, Luka and Kyrie still needs help -- and he's the most equipped player on the team (aside from Wood who we know doesn't play significant minutes because of you know who).

I don't think he has the confidence in himself yet to really take over. He's still trying to pick his spots and be efficient. Maybe another offseason of work will get him where he needs to be. But even with Green being a bit deferential, the results of him and Luka sharing the court have been great. The Mavs have a +10.78 net rating when they play together, but a negative net rating with only one on the floor.

[Image: lukagreenonoff.jpg]
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(03-12-2023, 08:40 AM)loki Wrote: I don't think he has the confidence in himself yet to really take over. He's still trying to pick his spots and be efficient. Maybe another offseason of work will get him where he needs to be. But even with Green being a bit deferential, the results of him and Luka sharing the court have been great. The Mavs have a +10.78 net rating when they play together, but a negative net rating with only one on the floor.

[Image: lukagreenonoff.jpg]

Without trying to confuse me by over explaining on points that really dont matter much at all...

Do these stats mean anything?

This board can try and lie to me and tell me Im seeing something else...but this team rarely shows what it is capable of.   I would take a guess that we play 80 to 85 percent of the time in our "non-Playoff" gear.  

Just seems like unimportant "filler" information.   Playoff data is all that really matters.  Yeah...Im aware...not all teams make it to playoffs.   But not all teams show 4th gear 80 percent of the time when they have a 5th or 6th gear.
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Any statistic needs to be taken in context, but when the difference in the team's performance is that significant it seems pretty foolish to ignore. The sample size in the playoffs so small it makes lineup data like this extremely noisy. Get a bad matchup or have an off shooting game and it can throw everything out of whack. They should be making decisions based off all the available data, not just a 7 game series.
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(03-12-2023, 09:23 AM)loki Wrote: Any statistic needs to be taken in context, but when the difference in the team's performance is that significant it seems pretty foolish to ignore. The sample size in the playoffs so small it makes lineup data like this extremely noisy. Get a bad matchup or have an off shooting game and it can throw everything out of whack. They should be making decisions based off all the available data, not just a 7 game series.

Nah...Powell isnt even playable in Playoffs.  Why even look at his reg season stats?

Couldnt care less about a bunch of chuckers' stats either...those shots get you benched quick in Playoffs.

A bunch of imperfect stats.  Ill stick with eye test.
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Like I said, everything in context. Using regular season data doesn't mean you ignore how the game changes in the playoffs. If Dallas went eye test only, they would be the only team in the league doing so.
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(03-12-2023, 09:42 AM)loki Wrote: Like I said, everything in context. Using regular season data doesn't mean you ignore how the game changes in the playoffs. If Dallas went eye test only, they would be the only team in the league doing so.

I just wouldnt put a lot of resources into lineup plus/minus when:

1) The team or opponent is not trying its hardest, making the stat flawed

2) Eye test can probably get you just as close to what a flawed stat can tell an entire analytics team

What does a flawed stat do for you when lazy players on other teams actually start playing not lazy?  Powell is a perfect example of what happens in Playoffs.   A try-hard that can look ok during reg season,  but when the players he looked ok against start playing for real...your left looking at a piece of paper that lied to you about this player or lineups ability.
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Now I see why Kamm and Dan left. I post one stat I thought was interesting and now I have to debate the utility of looking at data when making decisions. No one is saying there is some holy grail number that tells you everything you need to know
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(03-12-2023, 10:18 AM)loki Wrote: Now I see why Kamm and Dan left. I post one stat I thought was interesting and now I have to debate the utility of looking at data when making decisions. No one is saying there is some holy grail number that tells you everything you need to know.

Its about eye test and if the player can ball or be a good TEAM player in a system.

Mavs need to clean house of:

Powell - just not talented enough on offense or defense

THJ - not a good team player and makes bad decisions with ball in his hands(wont pass or takes bad shots way too frequently for NBA standards)

Hardy - Only if he continues with the "gotta get mine" ways.  He is on a short leash with me.  I love his ability on offense to create, I love his fearless attacking and ability to score at rim and shoot...I do not like his decision making in that he seems to be focused on scoring as opposed to making best bball play too often.  If he makes a lot of bad decisions in Playoffs and doesnt correct those mistakes by TDL next year...I might look to move him.  Apparently this team loves selfish players, so I assume he stays.  I dont want to let him go...but I cant stand one on one ball in the modern era.  He needs reps...and Ill put up with some selfish ways so that he learns the NBA speed...to a point.  So far...I dont know if its him trying to learn quickly or if he is selfish.

Maxi - low skill player.  Size, mobility, defense and shooting make him a keeper in todays NBA.   Not ideal skill wise at all.  If the right deal came up I would move him based on bball skill alone.  His age and niche ability make in a Mav for foreseeable future, though, I assume.  Point is...you cant acquire guys with low skill.   Front Office has to be better than this.  I like Maxi, I think he is useful...just very lacking on overall skills which is concerning.

Mavs need to acquire ballers with on-court skill...not stat sheet skill.
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