HOLY KRISTAPS: All Things Porzingis | TRADED to WAS - Printable Version +- MavsBoard (https://www.mavsboard.com) +-- Forum: Boards (https://www.mavsboard.com/forumdisplay.php?fid=1) +--- Forum: Dallas Mavericks and the NBA (https://www.mavsboard.com/forumdisplay.php?fid=2) +--- Thread: HOLY KRISTAPS: All Things Porzingis | TRADED to WAS (/showthread.php?tid=56) Pages:
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RE: HOLY KRISTAPS: All Things Porzingis | Would you trade him? - ItsGoTime - 05-09-2021 You’ve hit on so many of the questions we’ve thought and raised in this 1 post! Great job. My preference is to move on from him as long as we get an equal or better package value in trade for him than what we gave up to get him. If we can’t get that, I’d rather keep him and see what another year done for him and the team. In all honesty though, I think the FO is more of the mindset of keeping him unless they are blown away in trade for him. RE: HOLY KRISTAPS: All Things Porzingis | Would you trade him? - dynamicalVoid - 05-09-2021 (05-09-2021, 10:20 AM)DanSchwartzgan Wrote: The Decision Nice write. I keep saying this...and I will keep saying this... We have to see these guys in a playoff atmosphere. Am I just way off base with this notion? I get that the Mavs have a group of mathematicians they hire to track reg season stats...but how much weight can you put into that stuff? Example: I was in a convo with some people about KP...they seem to think we will see different version of KP in playoffs. More aggressive rim rolling and more aggressive on defense. I agree with this. It suggests that there is a different gear that can be reached. I cant put weight into stats that I assume are stats arrived at on a less than top gear performance. This doesnt even include what a team can do when given the green light to play at their absolute most organized state. Whos to say that the Mavs starting five AS A UNIT - WITH THE GREEN LIGHT isnt a monster. Sure...maybe Joel Imbiid individually kills KP as a player...but maybe KP gels with this unit. I get that you have to look at stats to try and improve your starting five numbers(example = lets trade our 45% FG Shooting Guard for this other Shooting Guard with 58% FG percentage)...but I want to see what the UNIT can do in playoff atmosphere. Or...I want to see the guys you talk about trading IN A PLAYOFF ATMOSPHERE before discussing 3rd gear reg season stats. Theyre pointless, imo. RE: HOLY KRISTAPS: All Things Porzingis | Would you trade him? - ItsGoTime - 05-09-2021 (05-09-2021, 11:15 AM)dynamicalVoid Wrote: Nice write.This suggests that KP himself is intentionally not going as hard as he can during the season. Either that or someone is forcing him to play that way. I think that is very far from his nature as a player, either way. We heard DFS’s rally cry to the team after the Brooklyn win. I think the more realistic thought is that his play and hustle depends on the way he perceives the game is going to go. If he feels frozen out while on the court, it snowballs downward from there and becomes hard to get out of. That, to me, makes more sense of the stats pointed to from Dan. RE: HOLY KRISTAPS: All Things Porzingis | Would you trade him? - dynamicalVoid - 05-09-2021 (05-09-2021, 11:24 AM)ItsGoTime Wrote: This suggests that KP himself is intentionally not going as hard as he can during the season. Either that or someone is forcing him to play that way. I think that is very far from his nature as a player, either way. Everyone talks about how K Leonard has a different gear in the playoffs. This implies he could go harder in reg season games. KP cant? I just want to see this team with the Green Light. I want to see them when they are playing organized basketball...setting double screens to get Maxi an open look from 3...swinging the ball around the perimeter 4 times. I guess you can say that shooting open 3's produced from an organized play isnt skillful...thats why they dont run them in reg season because they want to see who can hit contested shots or create a shot or create for others. RE: HOLY KRISTAPS: All Things Porzingis | Would you trade him? - ItsGoTime - 05-09-2021 (05-09-2021, 11:33 AM)dynamicalVoid Wrote: Everyone talks about how K Leonard has a different gear in the playoffs. This implies he could go harder in reg season games. KP cant?KL knows with a surety how to do this. KP has no clue, and is still figuring a lot of things out. There’s a difference between KL and Luka in that regard as well. RE: HOLY KRISTAPS: All Things Porzingis | Would you trade him? - ItsGoTime - 05-09-2021 I will say, there is a pretty good possibility ghat he gets fully up for every playoff game regardless of his emotions on how he feels his team is helping him succeed like whst we got in the bubble. I think that’s different than “finding snother gear” though. To me, that’s screwing his head on straight for a bigger goal. RE: HOLY KRISTAPS: All Things Porzingis | Would you trade him? - SleepingHero - 05-09-2021 (05-09-2021, 11:24 AM)ItsGoTime Wrote: We heard DFS’s rally cry to the team after the Brooklyn win. I think the more realistic thought is that his play and hustle depends on the way he perceives the game is going to go. If he feels frozen out while on the court, it snowballs downward from there and becomes hard to get out of. +41. I agree with this wholeheartedly. Hopefully KP doesn't let that happen in the playoffs. RE: HOLY KRISTAPS: All Things Porzingis | Would you trade him? - Kammrath - 05-09-2021 (05-09-2021, 10:20 AM)DanSchwartzgan Wrote: Breaking it down further, KP has been a net neutral or positive in 21 of the 40 games he's played. Dallas is 20-1 in those games and the one loss is a one point loss to Phoenix on Feb. 1st. The wins include POR, SAS, MIL, NYK, BOS, ATL, LAC, SAS, BRK, IND, MEM, GS, CHO and DEN among the top 10 in each conference. So, they aren't all against weaker sisters. Basically, if KP wins his time on the floor, Dallas does also. "it is hard to overcome a night of negative floor time from KP" This is the bottom line for me. The Mavs simply cannot afford to have their highest paid player and second most talented player be a consistent negative. The Mavs don't need to replace KP with a player even as talented, they just need to replace his salary with consistent positive to neutral play. If they do that I think they are a contender. I 100% think KP massively under-performing his contract is the singular reason this team won't have homecourt in the playoffs and won't have a puncher's chance in the playoffs. Occasionally positive KP is not good enough to overcome regularly (more than 50% of the time) negative KP. I think it is dangerous for the Mavs to roll the dice on him another season, they need to turn his salary into consistently solid players. That's it. Anything else is frosting. RE: HOLY KRISTAPS: All Things Porzingis | Would you trade him? - SleepingHero - 05-09-2021 (05-09-2021, 10:20 AM)DanSchwartzgan Wrote: The question is what is that team's peak versus the peak of a team that retains KP and does a better job of filling in the obvious gaps. Just want to say this is an article worthy post and thank you for posting it. I'm like you and don't really know which is the best move. I think it's pretty clear I've been staunchly on team keep KP. I still heavily lean that way but mostly because of circumstantial reasons rather than his own play. At the end of the day I want the Mavs to win and win a lot. KP is a unique player and presents unique building challenges and I often wonder if it's even worth overcoming them to reap the rewards. My issue was that I scavenged around the league to look for players that met the bare minimum talent return I'd seek in a KP trade and came up with only 6. Bradley Beal Zach Lavine Brandon Ingram CJ McCollum Pascal Siakam KAT Obviously if the Lakers called and offered Lebron I'd say yes right away (while pondering if he's damaged goods) but I feel this is the minimum talent level of a player we should be getting back in a KP trade. Clear cut stars that can't really lead a team on their own. John Collins, Malcom Brogdon, Lonzo Ball, and Jaren Jackson Jr. are all on the cusp for me as well but I felt weren't good enough on their own to match KP's talent level. Problem is, and that has been beaten to death, it remains to be seen if KP can even get a return of that level. And I feel if the Mavs sold any lower they'd be setting themselves back significantly. Thus, I'm resigned to the idea of keeping KP and making it work. Not like that's a bad thing either, because as you pointed out when KP is on and working, the Mavs do incredibly well. Further, I just cannot see Donnie trading away KP after a tumultuous year for the entire league. I mean they're still including him in team events and autioning him off! ( https://e.givesmart.com/events/lNa/i/_All/dMWq/?search= ) If we are still seeing issues by the end of 2022, then I'll change my tune but till then I think we can write KP's name on the team's roster in pen for next year whether we like it or not. RE: HOLY KRISTAPS: All Things Porzingis | Would you trade him? - ThisIStheYear - 05-09-2021 He drives me crazy as a fan, but Zinger is averaging 20 and 9 and has made a huge leap forward in true shooting percentage this year, even with the injury problems. The defense has slipped though, either because he’s less mobile, he has to cover for too much with Luka being very challenged keeping up with quick guards, or because opponents have just figured out how to attack him. And, of course, he’s just not available as much as you’d want, even if you are okay with significant load management. I can live with a load management scheme that has him play in maybe 58-60 games each year if that means he’s reliable for the playoffs, but I’m not convinced. So, I’m totally on the fence, and okay if he goes, or stays, as long as he has a positive attitude. If he’s going to miss so many games, he’ll need to adapt to the Mavs more than they adapt the scheme to him. And that’s been fine on offense as with even with all the hand wringing and inconsistent availability, he’s had arguably his best season ever on that side of the court. On defense, maybe inserting Josh Green into a starting role next season would help. That guy covers as much ground on defense as any player I see. RE: HOLY KRISTAPS: All Things Porzingis | Would you trade him? - MFFL - 05-09-2021 (05-09-2021, 12:56 PM)Kammrath Wrote: I 100% think KP massively under-performing his contract is the singular reason this team won't have homecourt in the playoffs and won't have a puncher's chance in the playoffs. I 100% disagree The Mavs were screwed by Covid. We were hit among the worst in the NBA. Then we had TWO snowstorm games that had to be made up as two more back to backs in the second half If anyone had asked me at the beginning of the year where the Mavs would have finished in the West, I would have guessed somewhere from 3rd to 6th (which is about where we are anyway) I'm not judging this team until after the playoffs RE: HOLY KRISTAPS: All Things Porzingis | Would you trade him? - StepBackJay - 05-09-2021 I really the defense thing is him sort of saving himself or not being 100% condition. I honestly would like to give it 1 more year unless he is a cancer behind the scenes. KP needs a full off-season of conditioning and a normal season without a condensed schedule. I am fine with him sitting out every 2nd night of a B2B. We just have to see playoff KP. I really think we are going to be happy with playoff KP bc we are going to get semi-rested, fully engaged KP. This is especially important on defense and boards. KP's offense comes and goes but his defense should be as good as it's going to get come playoff time. On offense I also expect him to be much more aggressive in the high PnR game with Luka. We know he has been mostly passive in these situations, setting *light* screens just to get the switch and then staying at the 3 point line. That being said in a handful of big games we have seen what I think is a preview of playoff KP where he is rolling hard to the rim and setting actual good screens. I really think it all goes back to load management honestly. RE: HOLY KRISTAPS: All Things Porzingis | Would you trade him? - DanSchwartzgan - 05-09-2021 Lots of good thoughts...a few responses: Coasting, especially on D? Yeah, that is certainly a possibility. Need to see this team in a playoff atmosphere before jumping to conclusions? Yeah, absolutely. TiTY's Suggestion of inserting Josh Green as a starter next season. This is part of what it might take to make KP and Luka work defensively. The most striking numbers that I wrote (to me) were the 20-1 result when KP is net neutral or net positive and how bad the Luka/KP pairing are at PnR defense. IF (pauses for emphasis), IF KP is to be kept, we have to figure out how to more consistently get positive on-court games out of KP and fixing the PnR D is probably the key. S-Hero: Thanks for the compliment. I think there is an approach to this that wouldn't require a guy at the level you are suggesting. But everyone, 2-9 has to be of a certain quality. In some ways adding that 1A or #2 guy makes improving 7-9 more difficult. Kamm: I liked your line about replacing KP's salary with "consistent positive to neutral play". That is kind of what I'm saying above to S-Hero. What I'm not convinced of is that we can't get more consistent positive to neutral play by improving the cast of players around KP and their fit with him. 20 and one the half of the time he's positive or neutral is substantial. Can you wipe out a big chunk of the bad games by keeping Maxi (and a second Maxi-like player) on the floor with KP at all times? Does more PT with Green help? I don't think I helped myself. If the team moved on from KP with what I thought were the "right" moves, I could support that. I'd say to myself that PnR D with Luka is too much to overcome. If the team kept KP and made what I thought were the "right" move to fill in around him, I could support that too. I'd say to myself the upside was just too great to give up on Luka and KP as a duo just yet. RE: HOLY KRISTAPS: All Things Porzingis | Would you trade him? - dynamicalVoid - 05-09-2021 (05-09-2021, 03:14 PM)DanSchwartzgan Wrote: Lots of good thoughts...a few responses: I see this brought up a lot. I saw with my own eyes Chris Paul abuse KP in the pick and roll...Im sure other guards can do it as well. Assuming KP was trying his hardest on D. How big of a problem is this? I dont work in a front office. I have heard that the PNR is the big thing in basketball these days...so you have to be able to defend it if true. Is 30M for a front court player who cant defend the PNR a recipe for moving on from said player? I dont know. Do the positive things KP does outweigh questionable PNR defense? I dont know. I guess I need to see him in the playoffs again to get a better understanding. Seems like the PNR defense is a big deal. I just want to see the player in a seriously competitive atmosphere before I give a final evaluation. I dont know if he is coasting in a cruise gear or not. Of course...I am basing all this off the ASSUMPTION every player plays his hardest in the Playoffs. I assume KP will the trying harder and I assume the opponents will be trying their hardest. Its not rigorous scientific fact that KP or our opponents will play at their best in playoffs. RE: HOLY KRISTAPS: All Things Porzingis | Would you trade him? - dirkfansince1998 - 05-09-2021 My big problem with the wait another season approach is the cap situation. Luka´s max changes things and it would be nice to have the right core pieces around him before he gets his new contract. A Luka + KP duo needs different role players than a Luka + x duo and once they have signed whoever they are targeting they won´t get another shot for quite some time. In this case it would be even more difficult to find the right deal for KP if the Mavs decide that it is time to move on. This season the Mavs could restructure the entire roster/payroll. Redistribute 65m in capspace. RE: HOLY KRISTAPS: All Things Porzingis | Would you trade him? - Jason Terry - 05-09-2021 Not just defending the PnR which has been an issue and could expose us in the playoffs...........the BIG light that has turned on recently was: our inability to run the PnR offensively IMO, the downfall of the Maxi-KP front court is this inability to run PnR offensively. This is the key that has made our offense look so terrible all season long. It’s easy buckets with Luka and neither Maxi nor KP can do it. We’ve made life hard on ourselves all season without it........Defensively, Maxi is the unicorn that can do it all and cover for the KP shortcomings. Hence the decent numbers in their pairing and the decent numbers of the regular starting lineup The guys said it best on the TNT broadcast the other night. Paraphrasing but “KP is a great player in theory but as a 7 footer he doesn’t give you any of the benefits of having a 7 footer on the court” i.e. screens, boards, paint protector. Essentially making KP a 6’8” spot up 3pt shooter in a 7’4” glass body Having said all that it’s still wait and see what happens in the playoffs.........he shows he can do EVERYTHING when the bright lights are shining then maybe he’s worth building around the shortcomings........even then......it’s important to note that many(probably most) in the trade KP crowd think that he has requested a trade and does not want to be here, so all the speculation and wait and see may be a moot point RE: HOLY KRISTAPS: All Things Porzingis | Would you trade him? - dynamicalVoid - 05-09-2021 (05-09-2021, 08:53 PM)Jason Terry Wrote: Not just defending the PnR which has been an issue and could expose us in the playoffs...........the BIG light that has turned on recently was: our inability to run the PnR offensively Is KP's size and athletic ability not quite right for the offensive PNR game? Or...is he reluctant to participate in PNR in fear of reinjury? Seems like a 6'8 to 6'11 athletic high flyer is most suitable. Someone that can throw their body around and adjust quickly mid air. You also have to have a good feel and read on whats happening and good chemistry with the ball handler. I dont know if chemistry or feel/read are the issue, athletic limitations, not liking that style of play, fear of increased risk of injury or something else is the issue. I get that he has shown an issue with being able to defend on the PNR. Also...Are the Mavs the first experience KP has had with PNR? Def sounds like there are fit issues. RE: HOLY KRISTAPS: All Things Porzingis | Would you trade him? - dynamicalVoid - 05-10-2021 https://www.mavsmoneyball.com/2021/5/10/22427462/the-nba-play-in-race-is-making-the-mavericks-better#comments Maybe I got too excited and copy and pasted this article before reading it clearly... But doesnt the very first paragraph of this article imply that teams dont go top gear most the season? This article was written last night or this morning. I just cant take most of these reg season stats seriously. I can get behind the shooting percentages...because I dont think guys are trying to miss shots. I do think that guys work on shots in game that could hurt their percentages(example: bank shot that KP, Durant and Westbrook use regularly)...but I dont think guys are trying to miss shots in the NBA. I am not anti-math. I am anti- evaluating and making final conclusion on players/teams before seeing them against stiff competition. Yes...a lot of teams dont make playoffs and decisions have to be made. Also...you can say its such a small small percentage of professional athletes that carry the "rise to the occasion" gene....but guys have it. I think the Mavs very on Deshawn Stevenson had this gene. RE: HOLY KRISTAPS: All Things Porzingis | Would you trade him? - StepBackJay - 05-10-2021 (05-09-2021, 09:33 PM)dynamicalVoid Wrote: Is KP's size and athletic ability not quite right for the offensive PNR game? Or...is he reluctant to participate in PNR in fear of reinjury? Seems like a 6'8 to 6'11 athletic high flyer is most suitable. Someone that can throw their body around and adjust quickly mid air. You also have to have a good feel and read on whats happening and good chemistry with the ball handler. I dont know if chemistry or feel/read are the issue, athletic limitations, not liking that style of play, fear of increased risk of injury or something else is the issue. We have seen KP roll hard in some big games. I honestly think we need to reserve judgment for the playoffs. 2 things I think we should see unveiled in the playoffs: 1. More aggressive KP, especially in high screen PnR with hard rolls to the basket. We have seen it before. 2. Lots of Luka on the block, especially in the 4th quarter with KP flanked out to the perimeter. The defender in the middle is stuck btwn two bad options and Luka will either get a good shot or get KP an open shot. Just knowing Rick I think he saves some stuff for the playoffs, for better or worse. RE: HOLY KRISTAPS: All Things Porzingis | Would you trade him? - HanspardsShowerVoice - 05-10-2021 PnR has been a Mavs staple ever since Rick got here, and yes ... we've done a ton of PnR with KP too. It's not some secret sauce, and if it's your only trick it will get shut down in the playoffs when teams have a long series to prep and gameplan for how they want to handle it. The Mavs will have to be more dynamic in the playoffs than just running PnR over and over again, and that's where the 5 out motion offense with KP also comes into play. We're not some super team with 2-3 All NBA players, so just being a 1 trick pony offense believing our talent is just going to be other team's talent if we execute a basic offense an a high level isn't going to get us very far. |