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+--- Thread: THE GREEN MACHINE: The Subtle Emergence of Josh Green (/showthread.php?tid=1911)
RE: The Subtle Emergence of Josh Green - cow - 10-10-2022
(10-10-2022, 02:32 PM)dirkfansince1998 Wrote: Agree on the Frank being a finished product part. But I think for the role the Mavs wanted them to play last season (on ball defense specialist) he is the better option. If Green isn´t showing me anything new this season I would take 10 minutes of Frank to guard the Booker´s and Curry´s of the league.
I guess the question for the future is included in the second part of your post. Can Green reach another level and earn himself a bigger role.
Still view Hardy as a big gamble. He is a chucker. Too early to to tell if that is a good/bad thing. Have no clue where he fits into the hierarchy.
I think the wonderful thing about Frank is he is the best pro in that he can be inserted cold as needed and probably isn't someone you need to carve out minutes every game for.
Hardy is the biggest unknown. He's a rookie after all. He's shown growth from summer league to the preseason. He's seemingly a hard worker so reward that ethic and growth with opportunity. He's where I'd give our limited development minutes to or at the very last split with Josh for to start the season. Maybe that type of competition will wake Josh up.
RE: The Subtle Emergence of Josh Green - Chicagojk - 10-10-2022
The playoffs were too big for Josh last year. That is completely normal for a young player. The Playoffs are a different animal. When you may not have great confidence in your game yet and the other team not only leaves you open but dares you to shoot, your confidence can disappear quickly if you can't make any of these shots. It is how he responds to failure that will be important. Give Josh some freedom and see how he does. I think you will be able to find a 20 minute plus guard if the current options don't produce either via small trade, buyout or big trade.
If the final choice to start is between Josh and Jaden, than I would prefer Josh at this stage. I am not sure either are the best option though. I don't know if Jaden is ready and not sure giving him 5 minutes at the beginning of each half is the best for his development. Maybe the role Goran said the Mavs wanted forhim would be best for Jaden. Play once a week for 15 minutes and get his experience that way. One of the areas I trust in Kidd is he will not put Jaden in kids gloves. He will give him some freedom and let him learn that way.
Lastly, I think Josh's man to man defense is a little overrated. He has the potential to be a good man to man defender, but he is not there yet. When he says he needs to slow down a little, I think that is the case on defense too. Good offensive players can take their time and get to their spots on him. He needs to learn leverage, positioning, and all the little tricks that veterans know. I did like his defense guarding the point in the first preseason game. Didn't watch the second close enough.
RE: The Subtle Emergence of Josh Green - cow - 10-10-2022
It's fine that the playoffs were too big for Josh last year. I think that's everyone's lasting memory at this point and I wish the disappointment came from bricks and air balls instead of letting your offense play 4v5 but I digress.
What gave me alarm bells was all the offseason chatter, especially leading into training camp. All the hype about Josh taking a leap felt more like everyone in the organization trying to boost his confidence. And then the preseason games came and he really hasn't shown to be any different of a player from last year. We also probably aren't going to know if his confidence issues are gone until the playoffs as he looked like a completely different player last season versus those playoffs.
I'm also struggling to think what Josh does really well. He's comfortable with the ball in his hands, is a willing passer and his elite athleticism shows up a play or two every other game. I'm just not seeing how that translates to a contributor an a championship team. I know he's young and all, but this is his third year and it feels like he's far behind the curve.
If I were Kidd, I'd tell him he has priority on the ~20 minutes available in the rotation but as soon as he screws up, he's getting yanked for Frank or Jaden. That's' either going to break his bending confidence or make him realize this is a business and he needs to fight for his NBA life. It would also help the organization make plans for his long term future with the club.
RE: The Subtle Emergence of Josh Green - Razzmatazz_Hopskidillydoo - 10-10-2022
What disappointed me the most about Josh Green (at least in the last 2 games) is that he still is slotted as a 3andD guard/wing. I'm not really expecting THJ like offense, but to me, guys like Bullock and DFS aren't good ball handlers and facilitators and it is only natural for them to be 3andD players. And these guys are too good at it. Green on the other hand, has some skill in facilitating and ball handling and can be more than just a 3andD guy.
Josh can still be a good player as a 3andD guy, but really.. I expected more when the Mavs picked him.
RE: The Subtle Emergence of Josh Green - Jommybone - 10-10-2022
Please correct me if I am wrong:
1. Josh is the fastest guy on the team.
2. Josh is the best wingman/alley-oop guy on the fast break.
3. Josh has the best physical talents for defending quick point guards.
4. After Doe-Doe and Reggie, Josh is the next most versatile defender on the team.
5. Josh is an NBA-caliber rebounder for his position.
6. Josh is an NBA-caliber ball handler for his position.
7. Josh is an NBA-caliber passer for his position.
8. Josh is an improving FT shooter (57% year 1, 69% year 2).
9. Josh is an improving FG shooter (45%, 51%).
10. Josh is an improving 3-point shooter (16%, 36%).
11. Josh is very, very coachable.
12. Josh is a good teammate.
13. Josh is 21 years old (2 years younger than Luka, 5 years younger than Jalen Brunson).
I hafta think the Mavs are very happy with this kid, his potential, and his progress.
RE: The Subtle Emergence of Josh Green - RoyTarpleysGhost - 10-10-2022
14. Josh is not a good basketball player.
The idea of Josh Green sounds great. Maybe one day reality with align with that idea.
RE: The Subtle Emergence of Josh Green - KillerLeft - 10-10-2022
(10-10-2022, 10:36 PM)Jommybone Wrote: Please correct me if I am wrong:
1. Josh is the fastest guy on the team.
2. Josh is the best wingman/alley-oop guy on the fast break.
3. Josh has the best physical talents for defending quick point guards.
4. After Doe-Doe and Reggie, Josh is the next most versatile defender on the team.
5. Josh is an NBA-caliber rebounder for his position.
6. Josh is an NBA-caliber ball handler for his position.
7. Josh is an NBA-caliber passer for his position.
8. Josh is an improving FT shooter (57% year 1, 69% year 2).
9. Josh is an improving FG shooter (45%, 51%).
10. Josh is an improving 3-point shooter (16%, 36%).
11. Josh is very, very coachable.
12. Josh is a good teammate.
13. Josh is 21 years old (2 years younger than Luka, 5 years younger than Jalen Brunson).
I hafta think the Mavs are very happy with this kid, his potential, and his progress.
Give me Franky Smokes for #3, and we're not really in a position to make a call on #'s 11 and 12, but overall I'm with you here.
RE: The Subtle Emergence of Josh Green - dynamicalVoid - 10-10-2022
(10-10-2022, 10:36 PM)Jommybone Wrote: Please correct me if I am wrong:
1. Josh is the fastest guy on the team.
2. Josh is the best wingman/alley-oop guy on the fast break.
3. Josh has the best physical talents for defending quick point guards.
4. After Doe-Doe and Reggie, Josh is the next most versatile defender on the team.
5. Josh is an NBA-caliber rebounder for his position.
6. Josh is an NBA-caliber ball handler for his position.
7. Josh is an NBA-caliber passer for his position.
8. Josh is an improving FT shooter (57% year 1, 69% year 2).
9. Josh is an improving FG shooter (45%, 51%).
10. Josh is an improving 3-point shooter (16%, 36%).
11. Josh is very, very coachable.
12. Josh is a good teammate.
13. Josh is 21 years old (2 years younger than Luka, 5 years younger than Jalen Brunson).
I hafta think the Mavs are very happy with this kid, his potential, and his progress.
All depends on how long you want to develop the kid really.
You make great points...but what youre leaving out is teams wont respect him in Playoffs leading to 4vs5...very very risky.
He has to improve his 3 asap...only so many game chairs. My unprofessional opinion is the kid unfortunately will never have a great feel for the game offensively. Luckily shooting a 3Ball isnt that hard to figure out....he just needs to do it ASAP. Investing time in the kid learning feel for the game as far as dribbling or finishing at the rim is probably not smart at this point...he just doesnt have it. Shooting and make an open 3 at a decent clip is this kids way in the league. Im praying for him.
RE: The Subtle Emergence of Josh Green - Jommybone - 10-10-2022
I think it’s another year of growing pains before he looks like what you all are lamenting that he isn’t. But I do think he’s pretty likely to get there.
RE: The Subtle Emergence of Josh Green - cow - 10-10-2022
(10-10-2022, 10:36 PM)Jommybone Wrote: Please correct me if I am wrong:
1. Josh is the fastest guy on the team.
2. Josh is the best wingman/alley-oop guy on the fast break.
3. Josh has the best physical talents for defending quick point guards.
4. After Doe-Doe and Reggie, Josh is the next most versatile defender on the team.
5. Josh is an NBA-caliber rebounder for his position.
6. Josh is an NBA-caliber ball handler for his position.
7. Josh is an NBA-caliber passer for his position.
8. Josh is an improving FT shooter (57% year 1, 69% year 2).
9. Josh is an improving FG shooter (45%, 51%).
10. Josh is an improving 3-point shooter (16%, 36%).
11. Josh is very, very coachable.
12. Josh is a good teammate.
13. Josh is 21 years old (2 years younger than Luka, 5 years younger than Jalen Brunson).
I hafta think the Mavs are very happy with this kid, his potential, and his progress.
1. Look at me, I'm Fox. /Luka voice.
2. Dallas was the 2nd worst fast break team in the league last year.
3. DFS, Bullock, Frank
4. Maxi
5. 70th best guard in rebounds per minute his rookie year, 16th best last season (his best trait?)
6. He looks comfortable with the ball and this would be my pick for what he does best before stat hunting for this list.
7. 130th rank in assists per minute last year.
8. Hard not to improve on that stat when you are a shooting guard and still very poor.
9. 2.4 attempts, 3.8 attempts (sample sizes)
10. .64 attempts, 1.5 attempts (sample sizes)
11. Debatable.
12. So are Powell and Pinson.
13. This is his 3rd year. Also a bad idea to compare him to JB and Luka if you want to rewind the clock and look at their level of play at his age.
The Mavs very well might be happy and hindsight and all but I bet they'd take a do over given the opportunity. The next three picks in that draft.
19. Saddiq Bey
20. Precious Achiuwa
21. Tyrese Maxey
Green was a weird pick for the Mavs who traditionally valued more ready players with higher floors than ceilings. Josh is a high ceiling guy and would probably look a lot different on a worse team that could afford him more opportunity.
RE: The Subtle Emergence of Josh Green - Jommybone - 10-11-2022
(10-10-2022, 11:39 PM)cow Wrote: 1. Look at me, I'm Fox. /Luka voice.
2. Dallas was the 2nd worst fast break team in the league last year.
3. DFS, Bullock, Frank
4. Maxi
5. 70th best guard in rebounds per minute his rookie year, 16th best last season (his best trait?)
6. He looks comfortable with the ball and this would be my pick for what he does best before stat hunting for this list.
7. 130th rank in assists per minute last year.
8. Hard not to improve on that stat when you are a shooting guard and still very poor.
9. 2.4 attempts, 3.8 attempts (sample sizes)
10. .64 attempts, 1.5 attempts (sample sizes)
11. Debatable.
12. So are Powell and Pinson.
13. This is his 3rd year. Also a bad idea to compare him to JB and Luka if you want to rewind the clock and look at their level of play at his age.
The Mavs very well might be happy and hindsight and all but I bet they'd take a do over given the opportunity. The next three picks in that draft.
19. Saddiq Bey
20. Precious Achiuwa
21. Tyrese Maxey
Green was a weird pick for the Mavs who traditionally valued more ready players with higher floors than ceilings. Josh is a high ceiling guy and would probably look a lot different on a worse team that could afford him more opportunity.
Some comments here I don’t understand. Sample size seems like a pretty strange criticism of whole-season averages, especially on a per-game basis. At the same age, Jalen was playing for Nova. But whatever.
RE: The Subtle Emergence of Josh Green - cow - 10-11-2022
(10-11-2022, 12:59 AM)Jommybone Wrote: Some comments here I don’t understand. Sample size seems like a pretty strange criticism of whole-season averages, especially on a per-game basis. At the same age, Jalen was playing for Nova. But whatever.
Meaning the sample sizes are really small and that's not a criticism. Small sample sizes make judging can make for fluky percentages, for example he might be a much better free throw shooter but can't show it because he doesn't get to the line. Jalen was a driving force and winning championships at Nova. And what about Luka, the other comparison?
RE: The Subtle Emergence of Josh Green - Razzmatazz_Hopskidillydoo - 10-11-2022
(10-11-2022, 12:59 AM)Jommybone Wrote: At the same age, Jalen was playing for Nova. But whatever.
I guess you are right, JB has a ton of experience going in and I often forget how young and raw Josh was coming to the league.
And he still is young!
I am very critical of Green because he was my second choice at 18, and I felt at that time of the draft, Green in year 3 would be an exciting player. He does provide some excitement still, but I would think Green has a lot more to offer.
But with Green it's not a talent issue. He has it. But his instinct is just to be a JAG.
There is no alpha in him, nor beta, but I hope he gets it all together and be the best complimentary piece he can be.
RE: The Subtle Emergence of Josh Green - Mapka - 10-11-2022
(07-04-2022, 02:01 PM)KillerLeft Wrote: You forgot DFS, I think (I might be missing something about your criteria), but this is a VERY good point, tbqh.
If they're going to trade the kid and NOT commit to him long term, this summer has taught us that realistically, SOONER IS BETTER THAN LATER. Even pennies on the (theoretical) dollar would be better than letting him walk for nothing, eventually.
If we take DFS, Maxi counts too.
RE: The Subtle Emergence of Josh Green - mvossman - 10-11-2022
(10-10-2022, 11:39 PM)cow Wrote: Green was a weird pick for the Mavs who traditionally valued more ready players with higher floors than ceilings. Josh is a high ceiling guy and would probably look a lot different on a worse team that could afford him more opportunity.
Agree on Green being a weird pick (probably impacted by our GM not even being in the room). I don't really see Josh having a high ceiling. Don't see him being a high level offensive creator, a primary playmaker or an elite defensive stopper. His realistic ceiling is a low volume 3&D SG that can make plays in transition (something we don't do a lot of). That's an MLE level player. He has a decent chance to get there and it would probably be a better outcome than the average 18th pick, but there were better options out there that also made more sense.
RE: The Subtle Emergence of Josh Green - cow - 10-11-2022
(10-11-2022, 11:44 AM)mvossman Wrote: Agree on Green being a weird pick (probably impacted by our GM not even being in the room). I don't really see Josh having a high ceiling. Don't see him being a high level offensive creator, a primary playmaker or an elite defensive stopper. His realistic ceiling is a low volume 3&D SG that can make plays in transition (something we don't do a lot of). That's an MLE level player. He has a decent chance to get there and it would probably be a better outcome than the average 18th pick, but there were better options out there that also made more sense.
Maybe I phrased that poorly but they went with the more athletic pick rather than the more skilled pick, hoping the skills would develop to go along with that athleticism for the higher ceiling. Conversely, that type of pick also has a lower floor.
RE: The Subtle Emergence of Josh Green - F Gump - 10-11-2022
Mavs exercised 4th year option on J Green.
RE: The Subtle Emergence of Josh Green - MarkAguirreWrathofGod - 10-11-2022
FGump: when could they sign him to an extension, hypothetically? Is there a minimum/ maximum amount and for how many years? Thanks!
RE: The Subtle Emergence of Josh Green - dynamicalVoid - 10-11-2022
(10-11-2022, 03:12 PM)MarkAguirreWrathofGod Wrote: FGump: when could they sign him to an extension, hypothetically? Is there a minimum/ maximum amount and for how many years? Thanks!
Im reading something that says you are allowed to sign Josh Green anytime during offseason up until the first regular season game. The main rule is that you can negotiate a rookie extension after the players 3rd season. Possibly different rules for a Designated Rookie...but Green isnt that. It also is saying that you can add a max of 4 years to the end of his first contract...so 1 year left on contract plus 4 additional years...totaling 5.
Would have no clue if this is accurate info or not? And no clue if him being a FRP makes the rules different?
RE: The Subtle Emergence of Josh Green - F Gump - 10-11-2022
(10-11-2022, 03:12 PM)MarkAguirreWrathofGod Wrote: FGump: when could they sign him to an extension, hypothetically? Is there a minimum/ maximum amount and for how many years? Thanks!
More years for JG -- He can be extended - 5th year, and beyond - in the window next year between July 1, 2023 and start of regular season. If no deal is reached, he can be signed (RFA) starting July of 2024.