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+--- Thread: THE GREEN MACHINE: The Subtle Emergence of Josh Green (/showthread.php?tid=1911)
RE: THE GREEN MACHINE: The Subtle Emergence of Josh Green - Dundalis - 02-07-2023
(02-07-2023, 09:26 AM)BigDirk41 Wrote: I don't want to trade Green. My opinion has changed to Green being the prize if we had to use to him to get another star player. I think Green plus our #1 should be off the table at this point unless it's for Siakim. I would trade Green for Anunoby and we could add some more players on our side, but not our #1.
I don't want to trade him either. But the Kyrie trade changes things a bit because right now he's a 3 month rental. It feels like they almost have to make deals that give them a better chance to win this season. Given the scenario I'd probably do it with the first.
The more I look at Siakam though the less sure I am that he's THAT much better than OG in terms of fit with our team. He obviously has the much more well rounded offensive skillset with his volume scoring and he's turned into an excellent passer. But he has a career TS of 55%, is shooting 31% from 3, and defensively I think he's a clear rung below OG, who is all NBA defense caliber, maybe even DPOY level. OG is a point of attack defender, while Siakam is more the defensive QB type, we absolutely need that POA defender with DFS gone. OG is also 3 years younger (albeit has been less healthy). Siakam would be amazing, but he will also cost much much more asset wise, almost certainly more than we can even offer at this point.
(02-07-2023, 09:26 AM)BigDirk41 Wrote: What last night showed me was Green would thrive if we played fast paced and quit letting Luka pound the ball. Green is all energy and hustle. He's not as athletic, but reminds me a little of the Matrix.
Quitting letting Luka pound the ball isn't an option. Luka's half court offense is other worldly, and requires him to spend time basically dissecting defenses like a surgeon. Obviously Kyrie as ball handler completely changes that scenario, and Luka will do it less than he has. Which maybe helps Green. But a lot of Green's issues IMO have nothing to do with what other players are doing and are all about his complete passivity both demanding the ball and taking opportunities to attack when he has the chance. He needs to change that mentality regardless of who he's sharing the court with and not just because the coach gave him a green light because the superstars aren't playing.
RE: THE GREEN MACHINE: The Subtle Emergence of Josh Green - ItsGoTime - 02-07-2023
Green and Hardy put on a clinic of how this offense should run last night. Luka can get the defensive rebound and outlet to 1 of Green, Hardy or Irving. They run a 3 man fast break and if it doesn't succeed, kick it out to Luka to set up the half court offense.
RE: THE GREEN MACHINE: The Subtle Emergence of Josh Green - Dundalis - 02-07-2023
(02-07-2023, 10:38 AM)ItsGoTime Wrote: Green and Hardy put on a clinic of how this offense should run last night. Luka can get the defensive rebound and outlet to 1 of Green, Hardy or Irving. They run a 3 man fast break and if it doesn't succeed, kick it out to Luka to set up the half court offense.
With the ball in Luka's hands, the Mavs have the number 1 offensive rating in the league. I get people simply like a faster paced offense, as it's more exciting to watch, but the slow Luka driven offense is literally and statistically more effective than an offense driven by any other player in the league. But with Kyrie around, we will 100% get to see that more frequently. Neither Green or Hardy have the chops or the resume to be trusted with that much when Luka or Kyrie are on the floor.
RE: THE GREEN MACHINE: The Subtle Emergence of Josh Green - ItsGoTime - 02-07-2023
(02-07-2023, 11:12 AM)Dundalis Wrote: With the ball in Luka's hands, the Mavs have the number 1 offensive rating in the league. I get people simply like a faster paced offense, as it's more exciting to watch, but the slow Luka driven offense is literally and statistically more effective than an offense driven by any other player in the league. But with Kyrie around, we will 100% get to see that more frequently. Neither Green or Hardy have the chops or the resume to be trusted with that much when Luka or Kyrie are on the floor.You didn’t read anything I said.
RE: THE GREEN MACHINE: The Subtle Emergence of Josh Green - LifeAquatic - 02-07-2023
(02-07-2023, 11:12 AM)Dundalis Wrote: With the ball in Luka's hands, the Mavs have the number 1 offensive rating in the league. I get people simply like a faster paced offense, as it's more exciting to watch, but the slow Luka driven offense is literally and statistically more effective than an offense driven by any other player in the league. But with Kyrie around, we will 100% get to see that more frequently. Neither Green or Hardy have the chops or the resume to be trusted with that much when Luka or Kyrie are on the floor.
Luka is great. His offense is great. Love him. But his sky high usage also wears him down and depresses output and energy from other guys. Running more is possible with him, he's done it with Slovenia. They can do both. Get other people involved by running more and getting the energy up and let Luka do his thing when they need it, to close out halves and games or when they just need points. That's what Jordan and Kobe used to do, get everyone else going and then take over when you have to do it.
RE: THE GREEN MACHINE: The Subtle Emergence of Josh Green - cow - 02-07-2023
One slight worry I have with Green and Luka sharing time together is Green's willingness to assert himself.
RE: THE GREEN MACHINE: The Subtle Emergence of Josh Green - BigDirk41 - 02-07-2023
This team will play faster with Kyrie. Luka will not be pounding the ball as much. This team is about to change it's style for the good. They didn't bring Kyrie in to be the clear #2. They will share the ball a lot. Luka will still get his scoring off the ball. They will both create for others.
RE: THE GREEN MACHINE: The Subtle Emergence of Josh Green - F Gump - 02-07-2023
(02-07-2023, 01:28 PM)BigDirk41 Wrote: This team will play faster with Kyrie. Luka will not be pounding the ball as much. This team is about to change it's style for the good. They didn't bring Kyrie in to be the clear #2. They will share the ball a lot. Luka will still get his scoring off the ball. They will both create for others.
This is how I see it as well. I hope you (and I) are right, and we see more pace/transition and less one-on-one pounding the ball to drain the shot clock.
RE: THE GREEN MACHINE: The Subtle Emergence of Josh Green - KillerLeft - 02-07-2023
(02-07-2023, 01:50 PM)F Gump Wrote: This is how I see it as well. I hope you (and I) are right, and we see more pace/transition and less one-on-one pounding the ball to drain the shot clock.
I think you're both right on the money with this, and if that doesn't mean anything to you, the fact that Zach Lowe agrees should carry some weight.
RE: THE GREEN MACHINE: The Subtle Emergence of Josh Green - Razzmatazz_Hopskidillydoo - 02-09-2023
Back to Green..
The disparity of capabilities between Green and THJ is wide.
And Green probably knows that too, but choses to defer to THJ out of respect (apart from being inherently unselfish).
If the team remains as is -- Green would surpass Wood as the third best player in no time.
RE: THE GREEN MACHINE: The Subtle Emergence of Josh Green - Dundalis - 02-09-2023
(02-07-2023, 11:36 AM)ItsGoTime Wrote: You didn’t read anything I said.
Yes I did, I just addressed it with the second half of my response. The first part was admittedly more directed at the general output of commentary saying Luka needs to play faster. I will say I'm slowly changing my opinion on Green not being reliable yet in terms of lets say being given 3rd option level of ball handling duties.
RE: THE GREEN MACHINE: The Subtle Emergence of Josh Green - Dundalis - 02-09-2023
(02-07-2023, 12:58 PM)LifeAquatic Wrote: Luka is great. His offense is great. Love him. But his sky high usage also wears him down and depresses output and energy from other guys. Running more is possible with him, he's done it with Slovenia. They can do both. Get other people involved by running more and getting the energy up and let Luka do his thing when they need it, to close out halves and games or when they just need points. That's what Jordan and Kobe used to do, get everyone else going and then take over when you have to do it.
His usage goes down with Kyrie on the court, that's a guarantee. My comment was more about when the ball is in Luka's hands. Luka will outlet pass down court if guys run. But they don't or haven't. But ultimately, Luka will still get a load of entry passes to work the block, and Luka as ball handler will assess and break down defenses the same way he has been which both are heavy clock eating actions. That's not gonna change IMO, it just won't be quite as frequent as it has been. It's Kyrie who will drive the faster pace. I'll also be interested to see if they give Green ball handling duties even when both Luka and Kyrie are on the court. Kyrie was way more off ball than I expected him to be this game.
RE: THE GREEN MACHINE: The Subtle Emergence of Josh Green - DanSchwartzgan - 02-09-2023
https://twitter.com/i/status/1623612542235865088
RE: THE GREEN MACHINE: The Subtle Emergence of Josh Green - ItsGoTime - 02-09-2023
I most loved the monster block on Mann leaving him to lay on the ground and evaluate his life choices that lead to that exact moment!
RE: THE GREEN MACHINE: The Subtle Emergence of Josh Green - Smitty - 02-09-2023
(02-09-2023, 09:07 AM)ItsGoTime Wrote: I most loved the monster block on Mann leaving him to lay on the ground and evaluate his life choices that lead to that exact moment!
Mann would be great here. Wood+Frank for Batum & Mann
RE: THE GREEN MACHINE: The Subtle Emergence of Josh Green - Chicagojk - 02-09-2023
(02-09-2023, 09:03 AM)DanSchwartzgan Wrote: https://twitter.com/i/status/1623612542235865088
I think he should start, but he should definitely be finishing. There were a few times in the second half that he looked exhausted and I was wondering when he was going to get some rest. He didn't get much.
It seems Kidd has been taking him out around 7 minutes left in the first quarter to get a break. So maybe if you bring him off the bench the rotation is a little easier?
But he should be starting but I will be more disappointed if he is not closing all the games.
RE: THE GREEN MACHINE: The Subtle Emergence of Josh Green - vfromlmf - 02-09-2023
If Green defends without fouling like he did last night he'll be a star. Bridges / OG starter kit. The Igoudala comp is starting to feel right. I noticed Mavs are now listing Green at 6' 6" 210 ... strong.
You can throw Kleber, Bullock and Green at Booker & Durant ... but I'd feel much better with another high level wing defender.
18-20 minutes of Thybulle?
Also, pay attention to THJ on that clip above from Iztok ... then compare to Green. lol
RE: THE GREEN MACHINE: The Subtle Emergence of Josh Green - Dundalis - 02-09-2023
(02-09-2023, 10:02 AM)vfromlmf Wrote: If Green defends without fouling like he did last night he'll be a star. Bridges / OG starter kit. The Igoudala comp is starting to feel right. I noticed Mavs are now listing Green at 6' 6" 210 ... strong.It could be interesting, because Bullock looks like a totally different player. But I'm nowhere close to thinking that after half a season of garbage defense 1-2 games of good hustle means our defense is any better. I don't even think we were that good on defense, we just showed way more hustle and energy. There were plenty of breakdowns, and Kawhi IMO showed Green is a 1-3 defender only. For whatever reason Kawhi played like he was comatose the first half. I also do not think Green is 6'6. Looks more like 6'4, 6'5 at absolute max.
You can throw Kleber, Bullock and Green at Booker & Durant ... but I'd feel much better with another high level wing defender.
18-20 minutes of Thybulle?
Also, pay attention to THJ on that clip above from Iztok ... then compare to Green. lol
RE: THE GREEN MACHINE: The Subtle Emergence of Josh Green - KillerLeft - 02-09-2023
(02-09-2023, 10:02 AM)vfromlmf Wrote: If Green defends without fouling like he did last night he'll be a star. Bridges / OG starter kit. The Igoudala comp is starting to feel right. I noticed Mavs are now listing Green at 6' 6" 210 ... strong.
You can throw Kleber, Bullock and Green at Booker & Durant ... but I'd feel much better with another high level wing defender.
18-20 minutes of Thybulle?
Also, pay attention to THJ on that clip above from Iztok ... then compare to Green. lol
Agreed. He calmly forced a contested jump shot from the free throw line in a 1-on-1 situation against Kawhi Leonard last night, and I was impressed. It wasn't lockdown defense, and it was certainly a shot KL could've made, but the amount of poise and control Green had in that situation was a noticeable improvement to me. Maybe the single best defensive possession I've ever seen from him.
RE: THE GREEN MACHINE: The Subtle Emergence of Josh Green - Dundalis - 02-09-2023
(02-09-2023, 11:55 AM)KillerLeft Wrote: Agreed. He calmly forced a contested jump shot from the free throw line in a 1-on-1 situation against Kawhi Leonard last night, and I was impressed. It wasn't lockdown defense, and it was certainly a shot KL could've made, but the amount of poise and control Green had in that situation was a noticeable improvement to me. Maybe the single best defensive possession I've ever seen from him.
He's gonna be a problem defensively for sure, but his overall defense on Kawhi IMO showed how small he is compared to our previous tandom wing defenders in Bullock and DFS. It was pretty easy for Kawhi to shoot over him IMO. He does not look 6'6 to me.