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+--- Thread: THE GREEN MACHINE: The Subtle Emergence of Josh Green (/showthread.php?tid=1911)
RE: The Subtle Emergence of Josh Green - dynamicalVoid - 10-23-2022
I dont think there will be many nights we have to rely on THJs streaky shooting. If he catches fire...the whole team suffers because they have to watch this chucker sling shots up once its passed to him. His game is beyond terrible...just bench him and eat the two years at this point. Guy does not belong on an NBA court.
RE: The Subtle Emergence of Josh Green - ItsGoTime - 10-23-2022
THJ has 3 years left on his contract.
RE: The Subtle Emergence of Josh Green - cow - 10-23-2022
(10-23-2022, 05:02 PM)dynamicalVoid Wrote: I dont think there will be many nights we have to rely on THJs streaky shooting. If he catches fire...the whole team suffers because they have to watch this chucker sling shots up once its passed to him. His game is beyond terrible...just bench him and eat the two years at this point. Guy does not belong on an NBA court.
This season and two years after. Have to play him at least until the TDL.
RE: The Subtle Emergence of Josh Green - RoyTarpleysGhost - 10-23-2022
It takes one game watching Green play to know he doesn’t know how to hoop.
I guess there’s the off chance you can turn him into a robot that does nothing but shoot threes from one corner ala Bruce Bowen.
Just a very low ceiling pick for #18 overall. Definitely an analytics based pick. Hey wings are the most valuable. Hey this guy has the right measurements for a 3 and D wing. No way you can watch Maxey and Josh Green play and pick Green except for the archetype.
RE: The Subtle Emergence of Josh Green - Razzmatazz_Hopskidillydoo - 10-23-2022
We all know the Mavs usually pick a polished player, so yes the Josh Green pick was surprising.
IMHO, the thinking with Green is that at the very least, he'd a be a 3andD type who can play immediately, but the projection or at least the hope is -- he could be much more in due time. That's the only explanation I can think of where the Mavs went out of character and picked someone raw.
The "play immediately part" obviously has worked out, and the "more than a 3andD"player hasn't worked out either.
But he still young. He can figure it out still, but if I have to guess -- he'd figure it out wearing another uniform.
As I said many times, I don't want him traded, but he will be in the trading block if by December we still see the same Josh Green.
RE: The Subtle Emergence of Josh Green - dynamicalVoid - 10-24-2022
(10-23-2022, 05:51 PM)RoyTarpleysGhost Wrote: It takes one game watching Green play to know he doesn’t know how to hoop.
I guess there’s the off chance you can turn him into a robot that does nothing but shoot threes from one corner ala Bruce Bowen.
Just a very low ceiling pick for #18 overall. Definitely an analytics based pick. Hey wings are the most valuable. Hey this guy has the right measurements for a 3 and D wing. No way you can watch Maxey and Josh Green play and pick Green except for the archetype.
Posters will come running claiming its all a crap shoot.
But boy oh boy do I agree with you. This team has been littered with players that have major holes in their games. My suggestion to Mavs staff is to pick the 6'7 guy with true hoop skills over the 6'11 guy with holes you THINK you can coach out of him. Young and potential cant be used as excuses. You gotta pick hoopers.
THJ, Green and Maxi are not hoopers. We got lucky with DFS 3 shot turning really good because he is not good with ball in his hands either. Dwight Powell is sub-standard. Who ever is evaluating is not doing a good job, imo. Things seem to be getting better though.
RE: The Subtle Emergence of Josh Green - Jason Terry - 10-26-2022
You look at all those pelicans players that play above the rim cutting to the basket and wonder why can’t Green do that. Green has been excellent this year defensively. He has that energy and athleticism. I think he should view himself with a career path similar to DFS. His 3 ball will take years to develop until he gets comfortable enough. In the meantime he needs to contribute offensively more so we don’t have to ride DFS and Bullock so hard. Green needs to find a way to fit better crashing offensive boards, cutting, rolling, pressing on fast breaks etc. We have an athleticism problem and he needs to fill it
RE: The Subtle Emergence of Josh Green - MarkAguirreWrathofGod - 10-26-2022
I would like to see them run more set plays for Josh— he did well with more responsibility in that respect last season. The dribble handoff with him running to his right near the top of key plays to his strengths. Surround him with shooters, he’s good at finding them or he can go to the rim or hit the ft line pull-up. We desperately need someone else who can be a playmaker. Facu ain’t it. They just sag off of him. Our offense lacks imagination. Luka is just so good that he can overcome our limitations in personnel and play calling .
RE: The Subtle Emergence of Josh Green - dynamicalVoid - 10-26-2022
Josh Green should be traded to GSW where he would have a chance to be an NBA player. Luka-ball could kill his career.
If Bullock is not doing well on defense yet and continues to have less than 10 points a game like DFS and Maxi...why not try Green in Bullocks spot with starters for extended minutes? Hes better at defense than Bullocks and cant be too much worse on final box score points for the position. Seems to make sense to me unless that opens the door for team issues by upsetting Bullocks.
If Bullocks is doing terrible...why not cut a few of his minutes and see how Green, Frank or another bench player do there until Bullocks gets it together?
They already played Green with starters in the Phoenix game in the second quarter I believe it was. Green has warts...but would love to see if they can incorporate some plays that take advantage of him slashing or playing above the rim.
Bullock can go APE from 3 some games...but are we sure Green isnt close to Bullock on overall impact of the game when Bullock isnt having good 3 nights? Green might have better handles than Bullock even and similar feel for game. Bullock doesnt seem to touch ball much or drive much so we dont see his flaws as much. He just shoots and plays defense.
RE: The Subtle Emergence of Josh Green - SwisherPrice - 10-26-2022
Yup I feel bad for him...he gets 15 minutes a game to barely touch the ball 1-2 times and then when he misses or makes a mistake, it's always magnified because that's his ONLY opportunity.
Would love for him to just get a few games where he can play 30+ minutes in the Bullock/DFS role and see what he can do. But that is never going to happen, especially with Campazzo probably entering the rotation now.
If you're not one of the Top-3 scorers on this team, the offensive system is just not suited for anyone other than 3 and D-type of players. Their offense doesn't have much motion or set plays, it's basically high screen action between two players and everyone else just stands waiting for something to happen. And that's why they play the slowest pace in the league...which is not very helpful for a young, athletic player like Green.
RE: The Subtle Emergence of Josh Green - Razzmatazz_Hopskidillydoo - 10-26-2022
(10-26-2022, 08:22 PM)SwisherPrice Wrote: Yup I feel bad for him...he gets 15 minutes a game to barely touch the ball 1-2 times and then when he misses or makes a mistake, it's always magnified because that's his ONLY opportunity.
Most of us understand JG's predicament. We're rooting for him and hoping for increased PT and touches.
But we can not justify being supporters if he himself doesn't have the willingness to seize the opportunity however small it is.
We're not asking him to shoot it every chance he gets the ball.
But..
On the very few times he gets the ball, he has to do something meaningful to it.
If he cuts to the basket/gets the ball in scoring position, the purpose should be clear -- to put pressure on the defense and be perceived as a threat.
With Josh..
I feel like every time he cuts or gets the ball in a half court set, his primary goal is to pass regardless of his location in the court. Scoring for him is optional and only when he has a free lane or totally open (which sometimes he even bypasses).
The only time he has confidence is if he is running on a fastbreak.
RE: The Subtle Emergence of Josh Green - dynamicalVoid - 10-26-2022
(10-26-2022, 10:14 PM)Razzmatazz_Hopskidillydoo Wrote: Most of us understand JG's predicament. We're rooting for him and hoping for increased PT and touches.
But we can not justify being supporters if he himself doesn't have the willingness to seize the opportunity however small it is.
We're not asking him to shoot it every chance he gets the ball.
But..
On the very few times he gets the ball, he has to do something meaningful to it.
If he cuts to the basket/gets the ball in scoring position, the purpose should be clear -- to put pressure on the defense and be perceived as a threat.
With Josh..
I feel like every time he cuts or gets the ball in a half court set, his primary goal is to pass regardless of his location in the court. Scoring for him is optional and only when he has a free lane or totally open (which sometimes he even bypasses).
The only time he has confidence is if he is running on a fastbreak.
If he is failing at that...lets see him in a Bullock roll then. Bullock is a nothing burger on offense other than wide open 3s or corner 3s. Green can do that. Reggie isnt being asked to do anything special on offense.
What is your opinion of Josh Green Vs Reggie Bullock on defense? Is Bullock just safer because hes a vet and doesnt make as many mistakes? Or is your opinion that Bullock is much better than Green at defense?
As a casual...it seems like Green is more in your face and disruptive...also more active on rebounds and hustle plays. I guess I kind of feel like maybe he deserves some of the Bullock minutes with the starters.
RE: The Subtle Emergence of Josh Green - Razzmatazz_Hopskidillydoo - 10-26-2022
(10-26-2022, 10:22 PM)dynamicalVoid Wrote: What is your opinion of Josh Green Vs Reggie Bullock on defense? Is Bullock just safer because hes a vet and doesnt make as many mistakes? Or is your opinion that Bullock is much better than Green at defense?
As a casual...it seems like Green is more in your face and disruptive...also more active on rebounds and hustle plays. I guess I kind of feel like maybe he deserves some of the Bullock minutes with the starters.
The 3andD tandem of DFS-Bullock really needs to be trio.
One reason for this is to have insurance for injuries.
Another is the load they have can take a toll.
IMHo, on a good team, Bullock and DFS shouldn't even get the minutes they are getting. Specially Bullock who (IMHo) needs to be at the 24ish in minutes.
It's early in the season and it would be the perfect time for Kidd to insert JG.
Checks all the boxes.
- Develop JG to be a competent member of his 3andD guys.
- See what JG can do with increased minutes.
- JG taking some of Reggie's minutes would trickle down to DFS, as Reggie can sub in for DFS, whereby decreasing the minutes for both.
- Better handles, Reggie is inept in handling the ball, I can't fathom Reggie dribbling up court with JG's speed.
- Better verticals, helps with the rebounds and we know JG's a lob threat, I used to see him get those plays under RC, why don't they have them now?
- Better vision, It's probably because he is thinking of the pass ahead of the play, but still, I'd place money on him to nail a pass or see an angle to pass. Reggie doesn't have that. Passing is cerebral, Josh is the smarter player (should be at least).
- Speed and quickness, which in the break is really evident, but on half court sets, this almost disappears, which isn't puzzling to me because he is asked to camp in the 3 point area, and when he gets the ball he only makes the pass or attempts to shoot. Doesn't attack the close out, like he should. Quickness negated.
I'm not going to say Bullock is better when the last 3 games he isn't outstanding. Let's just say because Bullock is the taller and stronger player, he can defend 2s and 3s effectively and 1s and 4s almost decently when the switch calls for it. Josh's assignments are primarily guards. And the thing with guards and ballhandlers, you need to fight off a boat load of picks every game, not to mention most ballhandlers are quicker than Josh.
So that leaves us with.. shooting the ball. Nevermind that Bullock is the better shooter, but this is what Bullock has over JG:
Bullock cuts to the basket with the purpose of scoring. Bullock gets to a free spot from 3 with the purpose of scoring. Bullock does a fine job at relocating. He doesn't need speed, handles, verticals, or the smarts to do so. He just finds a way to get open. He is a willing receiver and taker of shots.
That's not hard to do right?
But with Josh, at least for now, that seems like a world too far away.
RE: The Subtle Emergence of Josh Green - F Gump - 10-26-2022
I was mildly optimistic - not certain, but positive rather than negative - that Green would emerge this season as a very useful player capable of being a playoff contributor.
From what we've seen so far - not only the negatives, but the nature of them - I am no longer optimistic at all. I was wrong. He has taken steps backwards (at a crossroads where he was desperately needing to improve instead). The way he has shown a total lack of any way to contribute on offense is a killer.
The big problem for me is that this is reportedly a player who worked his butt off all summer, to improve his game -- and this is all we get?? It's a total nothing. I see no reason to keep waiting -- he's showing no signs of improvement.
It pains me to say, but put a fork in this turkey.
RE: The Subtle Emergence of Josh Green - cow - 10-27-2022
(10-26-2022, 11:54 PM)F Gump Wrote: I was mildly optimistic - not certain, but positive rather than negative - that Green would emerge this season as a very useful player capable of being a playoff contributor.
From what we've seen so far - not only the negatives, but the nature of them - I am no longer optimistic at all. I was wrong. He has taken steps backwards (at a crossroads where he was desperately needing to improve instead). The way he has shown a total lack of any way to contribute on offense is a killer.
The big problem for me is that this is reportedly a player who worked his butt off all summer, to improve his game -- and this is all we get?? It's a total nothing. I see no reason to keep waiting -- he's showing no signs of improvement.
It pains me to say, but put a fork in this turkey.
All the hype out of camp felt like leadership was trying to boost his confidence and made me very skeptical. There was also an odd moment in a podcast that Dinwiddie did with Pinson that had Josh walking by in passing. Something about the way the talked about him made me think they had zero confidence in him.
RE: The Subtle Emergence of Josh Green - dirkfansince1998 - 10-27-2022
Right now I wouldn´t mind if they just give him 20-30 minutes. With Bullock and THJ playing like they belong on the current Lakers team there will never be a better opportunity for him to earn minutes. A little bit like a last chance / trial by fire. Give him 5-10 games in november to prove that he belongs. If it works the Mavs have another rotation piece. If not. They know that it is time to move on.
RE: The Subtle Emergence of Josh Green - F Gump - 10-27-2022
(10-27-2022, 12:11 AM)dirkfansince1998 Wrote: Right now I wouldn´t mind if they just give him 20-30 minutes. With Bullock and THJ playing like they belong on the current Lakers team there will never be a better opportunity for him to earn minutes. A little bit like a last chance / trial by fire. Give him 5-10 games in november to prove that he belongs. If it works the Mavs have another rotation piece. If not. They know that it is time to move on.
That's reasonable -- but if it's up to me, that's a big no thanks. I've seen enough. He keeps showing the same (no)thing when he gets a chance to play, and I've decided I am willing to believe he's showing us what he has to offer. I just don't see a real use for the role of "defend on one end, then hide and stay out of the way while the other 4 guys try to score."
RE: The Subtle Emergence of Josh Green - SleepingHero - 10-27-2022
(10-10-2022, 09:32 AM)SleepingHero Wrote: If I'm going to make a prediction, I think Josh stays timid till at least December. By then he'll get into the groove of the season and it'll be a breaking point imo. Either he'll finally play and we'll see breakout Josh getting 20+mpg, or he'll never be anything and Mavs should cut their losses asap.
RE: The Subtle Emergence of Josh Green - DanSchwartzgan - 10-27-2022
(10-27-2022, 12:24 AM)F Gump Wrote: I just don't see a real use for the role of "defend on one end, then hide and stay out of the way while the other 4 guys try to score."
Isn’t that exactly what Bullock does? It is pretty much all Dorian does also. Even Maxi falls into this in certain lineups where another big is doing the pick-setting for the ball handler.
As some point you have to acknowledge standing in the corner is a system choice rather than a player shortcoming. So, I don’t see the logic that says Josh can’t play the same exact role as the player he subs in for because Josh should be doing more when we don’t hold Bullock to the same standard.
RE: The Subtle Emergence of Josh Green - MarkAguirreWrathofGod - 10-27-2022
I agree Dan. I would also say that Josh has shown that he IS capable of more, of doing things Reggie could never do. Josh won us a couple games last year when he was given a larger role out of necessity. Sometimes if you entrust someone with more responsibility, they reward you. I don’t see the downside to giving Green a bigger role; meaning more minutes and greater offensive responsibilities. He is one of our few players with any actual upside.