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+--- Thread: TRADE: Dinwiddie + Bertans to DAL | KP + 2nd to WAS (/showthread.php?tid=1765)
RE: TRADE: Dinwiddie+Bertans to DAL | KP+2nd to WAS - Mavs2021 - 02-10-2022
(02-10-2022, 07:09 PM)dirkfansince1998 Wrote: Championship nostalgia is strong with all of us. Again Peja was great against the Lakers and Blazers. But he averaged 3ppg against the Thunder and Heat. Did not play in the last two games. Him entering the floor in the finals lead to instant Heat runs.
I trust Bertans to have a few good shooting night. And maybe he turns out to be slightly more useful on defense.
Why did we even end up comparing Broken Peja vs. Bertans?
This person argued that the current roster is as good as the Championship roster or some f***** up sh*t like that. I don´t even know what that person was trying to say. It was so stupid.
But to humour myself.
How much money was broken down Peja making to average 8/2 on 40% 3pt shooting?
How much money is Bertans making on this allegedly MOVEABLE contract to average 6/2 on 32% 3pt shooting?
Ah the lightbulb moment.
RE: TRADE: Dinwiddie+Bertans to DAL | KP+2nd to WAS - dirkfansince1998 - 02-10-2022
I think the current outrage is more about Mavs fans coming to terms with the reality of the situation. Majority vastly overrated his value. It sucks but outside of punting on the next three years and waiting for his contract to expire the Mavs really had no other option.
I might start to complain when I see other offers but trading him was the right decision. Not only because it creates more flexibility. Also because it allows the Mavs and the new front office to move on.
(02-10-2022, 07:24 PM)Mavs2021 Wrote: Why did we even end up comparing Broken Peja vs. Bertans?
This person argued that the current roster is as good as the Championship roster or some f***** up sh*t like that. I don´t even know what that person was trying to say. It was so stupid.
But to humour myself.
How much money was broken down Peja making to average 8/2 on 40% 3pt shooting?
How much money is Bertans making on this allegedly MOVEABLE contract to average 6/2 on 32% 3pt shooting?
Ah the lightbulb moment.
That´s not my battle to fight. Just added some context because many of us tend to (rightfully) glorify players from the 10/11 run.
RE: TRADE: Dinwiddie+Bertans to DAL | KP+2nd to WAS - Jason Terry - 02-10-2022
Luka went to the decision makers and said get this scrub KP the scarecrow off this team now and this is how much the league values KP. Does anything else even matter? This is about Luka being happy and being the franchise player. Watch his next interview. Watch how he plays going forward. Luka was not happy with KP both on or off the court. We may have got worse on paper today………..but today we are a better team
KP had negative value. Any “defense” he played those few plays over the last few years was a mirage. All he was was a maxed out 3pt shooting 7 footer and couldn’t even do that this year
RE: TRADE: Dinwiddie+Bertans to DAL | KP+2nd to WAS - KillerLeft - 02-10-2022
https://twitter.com/sportssturm/status/1491869023734091776?s=21
RE: TRADE: Dinwiddie+Bertans to DAL | KP+2nd to WAS - hakeemfaan - 02-10-2022
(02-10-2022, 07:27 PM)dirkfansince1998 Wrote: I think the current outrage is more about Mavs fans coming to terms with the reality of the situation. Majority vastly overrated his value. It sucks but outside of punting on the next three years and waiting for his contract to expire the Mavs really had no other option.
I might start to complain when I see other offers but trading him was the right decision. Not only because it creates more flexibility. Also because it allows the Mavs and the new front office to move on.
No one overrated him here. C’mon man. Stop making up stuff to prop up your arguments.
The current outrage is about making a move just for the heck of it, not getting better in any way short term or long term, not getting a pick back from a team that was even more desperate than the Mavs, and taking a step backwards than getting closer to contention in any way.
Why be so quick to move on if you are not getting better in any way? Hold on and punt to the next season. If a catastrophic injury is the worry there are injury exceptions.
Now if it comes out tomorrow that he went and demanded a trade behind the scenes like he did with the Knicks, I can understand their rush to get him out. Even in that scenario the Knicks front office did a better job than the Mavs front office.
But you can keep spinning the false nar
RE: TRADE: Dinwiddie+Bertans to DAL | KP+2nd to WAS - SkenfromLMF - 02-10-2022
I miss the good old days when we made a bad trade and at least had a Trade Exception to linger with us while we looked toward expectations of the off-season!
RE: TRADE: Dinwiddie+Bertans to DAL | KP+2nd to WAS - hakeemfaan - 02-10-2022
(02-10-2022, 07:30 PM)Jason Terry Wrote: Luka went to the decision makers and said get this scrub KP the scarecrow off this team now and this is how much the league values KP. Does anything else even matter? This is about Luka being happy and being the franchise player. Watch his next interview. Watch how he plays going forward. Luka was not happy with KP both on or off the court. We may have got worse on paper today………..but today we are a better team
KP had negative value. Any “defense” he played those few plays over the last few years was a mirage. All he was was a maxed out 3pt shooting 7 footer and couldn’t even do that this year
Luka needs to be in shape and not hog the ball too. Fantastic talent but the team already move on from their GM and coach because of him. Now if you say it is KP today, who next? At least KP was always in shape and didn’t seem to carry any flab. So maybe Luka needs to follow some of KP’s off court routines?
KP’s defense last year was poor but he was coming off an injury. This year he was much better. Plus offensively also he was moving much more without the ball. His numbers prior to his injury was really good.
What should have happened is we get a rugged PF to complement KP but what happened is we focused too much on his weakness ( not enough strength down low). Let us see how this team does going forward. I am all for teams that play together and not just be focused on names but our defense did not get better today. Our overall talent did not get better today. Our draft situation did not get better today. But hey KP is gone. So let us rejoice.
His value is mainly affected by his injury history.
RE: TRADE: Dinwiddie+Bertans to DAL | KP+2nd to WAS - Mavs2021 - 02-10-2022
(02-10-2022, 07:27 PM)dirkfansince1998 Wrote: I think the current outrage is more about Mavs fans coming to terms with the reality of the situation. Majority vastly overrated his value. It sucks but outside of punting on the next three years and waiting for his contract to expire the Mavs really had no other option.
I might start to complain when I see other offers but trading him was the right decision. Not only because it creates more flexibility. Also because it allows the Mavs and the new front office to move on.
It does not create more flexibility. I just don´t know what you people are talking about. They cost more money over a longer period of time and no these two contracts are not more tradeable, just because they are split.
Who in the world wants to trade for two injury-riddled roleplayers that drastically underperform on big salaries?
We paid two 2nd round picks each to get rid of the expiring $10M deal of Richardson and the $17M two year deal of Delon Wright. That´s what they make annually for another 3-4 years for being worse players.
RE: TRADE: Dinwiddie+Bertans to DAL | KP+2nd to WAS - dirkfansince1998 - 02-10-2022
(02-10-2022, 07:40 PM)hakeemfaan Wrote: No one overrated him here. C’mon man. Stop making up stuff to prop up your arguments.
The current outrage is about making a move just for the heck of it, not getting better in any way short term or long term, not getting a pick back from a team that was even more desperate than the Mavs, and taking a step backwards than getting closer to contention in any way.
Why be so quick to move on if you are not getting better in any way? Hold on and punt to the next season. If a catastrophic injury is the worry there are injury exceptions.
Now if it comes out tomorrow that he went and demanded a trade behind the scenes like he did with the Knicks, I can understand their rush to get him out. Even in that scenario the Knicks front office did a better job than the Mavs front office.
But you can keep spinning the false nar
I mean look at the trade proposals. Was any of the proposed trades close to the actual return. Going by them it looks like people expected positive value in return. Recency bias is extremly strong on boards like this but I don´t think teams make decisions based on 20-30 game sample sizes. KP´s value did not change dramatically just because he had a better start to the season. That´s not a false narrative. That´s what I saw on this board. Basically every single day for the last few month.
I just don´t agree with your take that the Mavs took a step back. For that the team would have to be worse without KP.
I don´t think the Mavs were quick to move on. They wasted nearly three seasons hoping that KP could turn into the player they wanted him to be. In my opinion they should have made the move last season. Would have given them more options (over/under cap, create capspace).
RE: TRADE: Dinwiddie+Bertans to DAL | KP+2nd to WAS - Mavs2021 - 02-10-2022
(02-10-2022, 07:42 PM)SkenfromLMF Wrote: I miss the good old days when we made a bad trade and at least had a Trade Exception to linger with us while we looked toward expectations of the off-season!
We still have the trade exception. Cuban was just to cheap to use it. If he wasn´t so cheap, he ´d have traded Porzingis to Houston for John Wall. He would have eaten the additional luxury tax bill in 2022/2023 and have had a clean slate in 2023 to really start building around Luka.
RE: TRADE: Dinwiddie+Bertans to DAL | KP+2nd to WAS - cow - 02-10-2022
(02-10-2022, 07:33 PM)KillerLeft Wrote: https://twitter.com/sportssturm/status/1491869023734091776?s=21
The folly of this line of thinking is you are putting a ton of confidence in Mark Cuban and the MBT to execute with more flexible assets. How'd we do with our most recent trades, picks, free agent signings and TPEs?
RE: TRADE: Dinwiddie+Bertans to DAL | KP+2nd to WAS - sterlingmallory - 02-10-2022
(02-10-2022, 05:04 PM)Mavs2021 Wrote: We are talking about contracts that are as long or even longer than KP´s contract.
I keep seeing people say this but there's more to it than that. Dinwiddie's contract is the same length as KP's (unless you actually think KP would actually opt out of that final year lol and spoiler alert, he won't). They both expire after 23-24 AND Dinwiddie's final year is not fully guaranteed. It's only guaranteed for 10 million. This could be useful in a trade after next year.
Bertans contract lasts one year longer than KP and Dinwiddie, BUT that final year is only guaranteed for 5 million. This could also turn into a decent trade piece too.
I understand the negative reaction people are having to this trade, but from a money standpoint, it's not as bad as you'd think.
RE: TRADE: Dinwiddie+Bertans to DAL | KP+2nd to WAS - dirkfansince1998 - 02-10-2022
(02-10-2022, 07:50 PM)Mavs2021 Wrote: It does not create more flexibility. I just don´t know what you people are talking about. They cost more money over a longer period of time and no these two contracts are not more tradeable, just because they are split.
Who in the world wants to trade for two injury-riddled roleplayers that drastically underperform on big salaries?
We paid two 2nd round picks each to get rid of the expiring $10M deal of Richardson and the $17M two year deal of Delon Wright. That´s what they make annually for another 3-4 years for being worse players.
Dinwinddie´s contract isn´t fully guaranteed. And I cannot help you if you still haven´t understood the concept of salary matching. It´s a lot easier to construct a trade and match the salary for smaller contracts. Match 16m with the MLE + rookie. Now try to do the same with a max contract. Includes more pieces or another big contract.
RE: TRADE: Dinwiddie+Bertans to DAL | KP+2nd to WAS - Winter - 02-10-2022
(02-10-2022, 07:24 PM)Mavs2021 Wrote: This person argued that the current roster is as good as the Championship roster or some f***** up sh*t like that. I don´t even know what that person was trying to say. It was so stupid.
No, that's not at all what that person was trying to say. In fact, it wasn't even close. You just didn't get it.
That person was responding to the guy who inferred that one superstar and a huge payroll was ridiculous and not going anywhere. I reminded him of 2011 and that one superstar and a bunch of older guys can be formidable.
RE: TRADE: Dinwiddie+Bertans to DAL | KP+2nd to WAS - Branduil - 02-10-2022
KP's value was obviously much worse than even the most pessimistic of us thought. I guess a guy on a max contract who misses half of his games, plays okay defense sometimes when he does, is highly temperamental and demands an offense built around him even though he has no well-developed skills and doesn't even really shoot that well despite his reputation as a stretch big, just didn't have a lot of suitors around the league.
Worst part is definitely giving up a 2nd, hard to believe Wash still wouldn't do the deal without tossing that in, classic Cuban move.
Now it's time for Kidd and co. to build the offense around our superstar instead of catering to the albatross contract who mucked up our spacing and rhythm.
RE: TRADE: Dinwiddie+Bertans to DAL | KP+2nd to WAS - Winter - 02-10-2022
(02-10-2022, 07:57 PM)dirkfansince1998 Wrote: Who in the world wants to trade for two injury-riddled roleplayers that drastically underperform on big salaries?
That would be the team with one seriously injury-riddled starter that underperforms on a big salary.
RE: TRADE: Dinwiddie+Bertans to DAL | KP+2nd to WAS - dirkfansince1998 - 02-10-2022
(02-10-2022, 07:53 PM)Mavs2021 Wrote: We still have the trade exception. Cuban was just to cheap to use it. If he wasn´t so cheap, he ´d have traded Porzingis to Houston for John Wall. He would have eaten the additional luxury tax bill in 2022/2023 and have had a clean slate in 2023 to really start building around Luka.
And why would the Rockets do that. KP has an additional year on his contract. Would you have added a pick to compensate them?
RE: TRADE: Dinwiddie+Bertans to DAL | KP+2nd to WAS - Mavs2021 - 02-10-2022
(02-10-2022, 07:58 PM)Winter Wrote: No, that's not at all what that person was trying to say. In fact, it wasn't even close. You just didn't get it.
That person was responding to the guy who inferred that one superstar and a huge payroll was ridiculous and not going anywhere. I reminded him of 2011 and that one superstar and a bunch of older guys can be formidable.
Does the level of basketball they are able to play also enter this equation of salaries and ages, or is that a neglectable variable. Cause right now Jalen Brunson and DFS are the 2nd and 3rd best player on the Mavericks, while they´d be the JJB and DeShawn Stevenson on our Championship team.
(02-10-2022, 08:04 PM)dirkfansince1998 Wrote: And why would the Rockets do that. KP has an additional year on his contract. Would you have added a pick to compensate them?
Hey how about a 2nd round pick.
RE: TRADE: Dinwiddie+Bertans to DAL | KP+2nd to WAS - hakeemfaan - 02-10-2022
(02-10-2022, 07:22 PM)dirkfansince1998 Wrote: I think that is where we disagree. I just don´t see KP as a 2nd or 3rd level star. Would argue that Brunson is more likely to fill that role than KP ever was. Mavs losing two close games doesn´t change that when the overall body of work is as big as the Mavs without KP. 40-28 without him over the last 3 seasons. Or more recently 9-3 since new year. Including the "best" wins of the season against the "best" teams in the league (Chicago, GS, Memphis, Philly).
Only brought up RC to emphasize that this isn´t a recent development. Concerns about KP´s impact and role aren´t new. That´s why many of us wanted to trade him at the last deadline or in the summer. Mavs decided to swallow the pill and move him today.
Maybe the Mavs aren´t better but I don´t see a scenario where losing KP makes them worse. I am not happy about the return but it just confirmed what I already thought. League isn´t buying into the hype or into his numbers. Other teams aren´t blind they are seeing the same things that we used to complain about.
Let us talk about the 3 years. That first year in the bubble we would have beaten the Clippers if KP had not got hurt. He was having a monster series.
Last year was definitely a step backwards and a lot of negativity towards him comes from that. However he was coming off an injury, took longer to heal and there was a lot of dysfunction going on around the team. You keep talking about RC but do we know what RC really wanted to run. It was Luka’s show and everything you heard from Donnie ( post season first mention was about Luka needing to facilitate more) to RC ( all the stories about Luka not listening to him and not respecting him). Plus KP too sulked and pouted as he probably felt that Luka was having too much of an influence on everything. Whether he was correct to feel that way or not, it was a bad move to pout.
So I am throwing the whole last year away. The team had a new start this year and KP was playing better defense and moving better without the ball as well. I know you keep diminishing his overall talent but you don’t put the numbers he was putting up on both ends of the court with just being an average player. That’s where we disagree.
Yes valid question why no one in the league valued him much then. That contract and injury history would scare off a lot of teams. That’s why all of us kept hoping that he would have a 10-20 game staying healthy stretch. We were confident that if healthy he could fill up the stat sheet and we were hoping to sell high. So while yes he did not have a go to move and had certain weaknesses, I would not just say that he was low on talent. He was pretty productive and impactful when healthy. Plus again we got two players also with serious past injuries, on not so great contracts, and having bad years while not even being as good defensively.
We will disagree on this. As I said it would have been a bit more palatable if we got a FRP and didn’t just blink so fast. IMO even if Bertans and Dimwiddie play well we took a step backwards today.
RE: TRADE: Dinwiddie+Bertans to DAL | KP+2nd to WAS - cow - 02-10-2022
(02-10-2022, 08:04 PM)dirkfansince1998 Wrote: Would you have added a pick to compensate them?
That's the pickle. It really just depends where you stand on Dinwiddie who the Mavs obviously like. I think you'll lose a pick eventually when it's time to move Beltrans. We swapped one of the worst contracts in the league for one of the worst contracts in the league, just one that is more manageable. The trade probably isn't crazy lopsided but I still think we came out on the short end of the stick and I have zero faith in us executing what's next. I kind of prefer the rip the bandage off all at once approach but then again, I probably would have just shelved KP.