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+--- Thread: FA: Spencer Dinwiddie Heads to DAL | 1 yr/vet min (/showthread.php?tid=3329)
RE: FA: Spencer Dinwiddie Heads to DAL | 1 yr/vet min - F Gump - 07-25-2024
(07-25-2024, 07:30 PM)KillerLeft Wrote: The period to study for insight into the intent of their design, I think, is the last 27-5 (might have the loss total wrong) stretch of the regular season when they were possibly the best team in the NBA.
Nope, too far back. Different roster through G 52. First game w the new guys was G 53. But some of that is obsolete, as they said they changed something significant in their setup at (or maybe after) G 63 vs MIA. Over the remainder (incl MIA) which was 18 games (they blew off G's 81,82) they were 16-2.
Doing a cursory glimpse at those 18 using some simple box score observations looks like the same answer - Kleber playing about 40% of his minutes at C. That assumes Gafford and Lively both available, of course, and assuming they aren't playing together. Used rough math. Observations might OVER-count his minutes at C, because I suspect there were some garbage time minutes in there some games. (10 of the 16 wins were by 10 or more.) But close enough.
We'll see what happens in November.
RE: FA: Spencer Dinwiddie Heads to DAL | 1 yr/vet min - Scott41theMavs - 07-25-2024
(07-25-2024, 01:04 PM)RoyTarpleysGhost Wrote: Klay might be ok if we hide him on 3s and 4s but the problem is Luka also needs to be hidden against that type of bigger/slower player.
The one thing I'll say in answer to this is that the first three rounds of the playoffs, in which a hampered-by-multiple-injuries Luka played most of time as effectively on defense as anyone else on the floor, should have put to bed the idea that Luka is a guy you have to "hide" on defense. If he could do that when hurt fairly badly for several consecutive games, then he could be trusted to guard pretty much any two/three in the league. If he could be convinced to play defense like that all the time. The '24 playoffs proved (to me, at least) conclusively, snap the briefcase shut, that it's not a matter of ability at all. Resting on D etc. might have something to do with it, as well as conditioning, but he played winning defense for 17 games while hurt. He can do it.
RE: FA: Spencer Dinwiddie Heads to DAL | 1 yr/vet min - mvossman - 07-26-2024
(07-25-2024, 03:55 PM)F Gump Wrote: Luka/PJ not really relevant to the point, as we have been generally talking about the backups capable of filling 3-needs (Maxi, Naji, Grimes, Exum) and whether Maxi will be a regular part of that equation (specifically, as a PF), to which I say yes. I agree Naji will be used as backup at F (in general) and slotted where needed at the time.
Luka/PJ are relevant because they won’t always be on the court at the same time. What scenario do you see where you would rather have Maxi out there at the 4 instead of Naji?
RE: FA: Spencer Dinwiddie Heads to DAL | 1 yr/vet min - F Gump - 07-26-2024
(07-26-2024, 12:15 AM)mvossman Wrote: What scenario do you see where you would rather have Maxi out there at the 4 instead of Naji?
I play Maxi over Naji at the 4 to the extent I see Maxi as a better PF, and when I think the matchup at PF will better favor Maxi's added size, and to the extent Naji might be playing elsewhere (specifically, at SF, where I see Naji as the likely primary backup to Klay).
RE: FA: Spencer Dinwiddie Heads to DAL | 1 yr/vet min - Razzmatazz_Hopskidillydoo - 07-26-2024
Naji's too small for a PF (yes PJ is about his size but the wingspan difference is huge).
And PJ plays bigger for his size.
That said, I'm willing to give Naji a try at PF, but I prefer Maxi over him.
Maxi has to fall further down the cliff (and Naji to prove he can play a position up from his natural position) for me to consider Naji over Maxi.
RE: FA: Spencer Dinwiddie Heads to DAL | 1 yr/vet min - mvossman - 07-26-2024
(07-26-2024, 01:37 AM)F Gump Wrote: I play Maxi over Naji at the 4 to the extent I see Maxi as a better PF, and when I think the matchup at PF will better favor Maxi's added size, and to the extent Naji might be playing elsewhere (specifically, at SF, where I see Naji as the likely primary backup to Klay).
I agree with the first sentence, I just think that extent will be very limited because I think Naji defense will be at least close to what Maxi can bring against 4s, and his offense is significantly better than Maxi at the 4.
I think Grimes makes more sense backing up Klay. They are very similar players, high volume 3&D guys. My guess is part of our differences are due to you not being sold on Grimes yet.
As for where Maxi fits best:
Maxi + PJ had a net rating of +18
Maxi + Gafford had a net rating of -6
RE: FA: Spencer Dinwiddie Heads to DAL | 1 yr/vet min - mvossman - 07-26-2024
(07-26-2024, 01:58 AM)Razzmatazz_Hopskidillydoo Wrote: Naji's too small for a PF (yes PJ is about his size but the wingspan difference is huge).
And PJ plays bigger for his size.
That said, I'm willing to give Naji a try at PF, but I prefer Maxi over him.
Maxi has to fall further down the cliff (and Naji to prove he can play a position up from his natural position) for me to consider Naji over Maxi.
We played DJJ a lot of minutes at the 4 after Grant crapped the bed. Naji is bigger and stronger than DJJ. I'm not worried about him handling 2nd unit 4s. Maxi is very valuable as a center, he is less so as at the 4 (see numbers above). I feel like as he ages, that will be even more the case in the future.
RE: FA: Spencer Dinwiddie Heads to DAL | 1 yr/vet min - F Gump - 08-03-2024
(07-26-2024, 09:38 AM)mvossman Wrote: As for where Maxi fits best:
Maxi + PJ had a net rating of +18
Maxi + Gafford had a net rating of -6
You forgot:
Maxi + Lively net rating of +10
All of those are regular season.
In the playoffs:
Maxi + PJ had a net rating of -5
Maxi + Gafford had a net rating of -16
Maxi + Lively net rating of +4
FWIW, in both regular season and playoffs, Maxi played more minutes at PF, and the vast majority of those minutes was with Lively. The issue wasn't him playing PF, but playing next to Gafford.
RE: FA: Spencer Dinwiddie Heads to DAL | 1 yr/vet min - KillerLeft - 08-03-2024
(07-26-2024, 09:38 AM)mvossman Wrote: As for where Maxi fits best:
Maxi + PJ had a net rating of +18
Maxi + Gafford had a net rating of -6
Totally agrree. I didn't know that number (thanks), but I remember watching the lineup well, and it was by far the best lineup the Mavs had post-trade. It's a shame Kleber got hurt and this lineup was only given a marginally small, out of practice sample during the playoffs. I'm sure they would've leaned on it a lot in round 2 if he'd been healthy.
The silver lining of that was that Lively leveled up AGAIN during the playoffs. A little with each series, it seems.
RE: FA: Spencer Dinwiddie Heads to DAL | 1 yr/vet min - SleepingHero - 08-03-2024
Landon Thomas (@sixfivelando)
Nico Harrison: “We welcome having Spencer back… an experienced teammate, who understands what we are trying to accomplish. His energy, versatility, and playmaking from the guard position adds invaluable depth to our roster and leaves us well positioned going into next season.”
RE: FA: Spencer Dinwiddie Heads to DAL | 1 yr/vet min - mvossman - 08-03-2024
(08-03-2024, 02:13 AM)F Gump Wrote: You forgot:
Maxi + Lively net rating of +10
All of those are regular season.
In the playoffs:
Maxi + PJ had a net rating of -5
Maxi + Gafford had a net rating of -16
Maxi + Lively net rating of +4
FWIW, in both regular season and playoffs, Maxi played more minutes at PF, and the vast majority of those minutes was with Lively. The issue wasn't him playing PF, but playing next to Gafford.
I think the playoff numbers are at least partially due to the fact that the Maxi + PJ combo would presumably most effect against OKC (Maxi was out) and Boston (Mavs got slaughtered).
Maxi played about twice as minutes with Lively as with Gafford (not sure that is vast majority). Some of that is probably due to Lively being on the second unit. Now that Lively is starting, more of the available second unit 4 minutes are probably going to be with Gafford.
I think there are definitely matchups where Maxi makes a lot of sense at the 5 (and clearly Kidd applied those well during the regular season based on the net rating), but there will be less times he makes sense as a forward. In most (if not all) cases we would be better off with any combination of Luka/PJ/Naji at the two forward spots. There will still be minutes for him there with expanded lineups, but I don't think he will be part of the top 8 in minutes any longer.
RE: FA: Spencer Dinwiddie Heads to DAL | 1 yr/vet min - F Gump - 08-03-2024
(08-03-2024, 01:05 PM)mvossman Wrote: I think the playoff numbers are at least partially due to the fact that the Maxi + PJ combo would presumably most effect against OKC (Maxi was out) and Boston (Mavs got slaughtered).
Maxi played about twice as minutes with Lively as with Gafford (not sure that is vast majority). Some of that is probably due to Lively being on the second unit. Now that Lively is starting, more of the available second unit 4 minutes are probably going to be with Gafford.
I think there are definitely matchups where Maxi makes a lot of sense at the 5 (and clearly Kidd applied those well during the regular season based on the net rating), but there will be less times he makes sense as a forward. In most (if not all) cases we would be better off with any combination of Luka/PJ/Naji at the two forward spots. There will still be minutes for him there with expanded lineups, but I don't think he will be part of the top 8 in minutes any longer.
Yeah, I just disagree with pretty much all of this. It feels like numbers are being used (all small sample sizes) in cherry pick fashion to support a thesis that the numbers don't really support.
I'm told Maxi is primarily seen as a C -- but the fact is, in both regular season and playoffs, he was used more at PF.
I'm told Maxi was not effective as a PF - but the numbers with Lively and the playoff numbers at both C and PF all say otherwise.
I'm told Maxi would have to be used with Gafford primarily in order to play at PF -and I think that's wrong on multiple levels.
As for how much Maxi will play overall, I think Kidd really believes that Maxi is one of his most effective players. So he will get him on the floor. I think last year's 17 mpg is about where he will land again.
Luka will play 0 minutes at F. He's the PG when he's on the floor no matter who else is with him.
Backup mpg at F (which I'm guessing will total ~50 mpg) will be split in some way between Maxi, Naji, and Grimes imo. My guess at the outset of the season is 13, 22, and 15 respectively -- I don't think either Naji or Grimes will be awarded huge mpg until (and if) they force their way onto the floor with superior play.
RE: FA: Spencer Dinwiddie Heads to DAL | 1 yr/vet min - mvossman - 08-03-2024
(08-03-2024, 03:00 PM)F Gump Wrote: Yeah, I just disagree with pretty much all of this. It feels like numbers are being used (all small sample sizes) in cherry pick fashion to support a thesis that the numbers don't really support.
I'm told Maxi is primarily seen as a C -- but the fact is, in both regular season and playoffs, he was used more at PF.
I'm told Maxi was not effective as a PF - but the numbers with Lively and the playoff numbers at both C and PF all say otherwise.
I'm told Maxi would have to be used with Gafford primarily in order to play at PF -and I think that's wrong on multiple levels.
As for how much Maxi will play overall, I think Kidd really believes that Maxi is one of his most effective players. So he will get him on the floor. I think last year's 17 mpg is about where he will land again.
Luka will play 0 minutes at F. He's the PG when he's on the floor no matter who else is with him.
Backup mpg at F (which I'm guessing will total ~50 mpg) will be split in some way between Maxi, Naji, and Grimes imo. My guess at the outset of the season is 13, 22, and 15 respectively -- I don't think either Naji or Grimes will be awarded huge mpg until (and if) they force their way onto the floor with superior play.
Yeah, I disagree with pretty much all of this.
Regardless of which center Maxi played with, he was more effective playing with PJ in small ball. You talk about sample size, but his high plus net rating with Lively (a smaller sample than with PJ) was more due to offensive rating (something that Maxi is clearly not contributing to). His net rating with PJ is due to defense, which seems much more sustainable.
This idea that Luka is the PG at all times is not accurate from a defensive standpoint. Do you really think he chases around PGs?
Naji was brought in to replace DJJ and Grimes was brought in to replace Green, both of whom got more minutes than Maxi. Maxi was 9th in minutes last season, and given that the team is deeper (and he is a year older) it may be farther down the list. I'm not sure why Naji and Grimes need to force their way to their minutes? They were brought in to play roles that were more minutes than Maxi last season.
RE: FA: Spencer Dinwiddie Heads to DAL | 1 yr/vet min - F Gump - 08-04-2024
(08-03-2024, 05:52 PM)mvossman Wrote: Regardless of which center Maxi played with, he was more effective playing with PJ in small ball.
Again this is not accurate info.
In the most recent set of games, the playoffs:
Maxi + PJ had a net rating of -5
Maxi + Lively net rating of +4
This idea that Luka is the PG at all times is not accurate from a defensive standpoint. Do you really think he chases around PGs?
Luka's still the PG on the floor, regardless of who he happens to defend. We all know that. No one ever thought of DJJ as getting minutes at PG, even though he often defended the PG on the other team.
Naji was brought in to replace DJJ and Grimes was brought in to replace Green, both of whom got more minutes than Maxi.... I'm not sure why Naji and Grimes need to force their way to their minutes? They were brought in to play roles that ....
That idea that this one was intended to be a replacement for that one may be accurate on paper and in the front office, but reality is that new kids without a strong resume typically have to prove their worth. I think they will get some run to start the season, but I don't think they will be handed anything. They'll have to work their way up the pecking order, if they can.
These guys were backups elsewhere, not all-stars or something. I think Kidd will kinda cater to the set of players he knows and trusts, that drove the train, until he figures out who he can trust and how. Or not. Think Wood, C. I expect that set he trusts will includes the 4 returning starters plus Klay, plus Lively, Maxi, and probably Exum as well. Not sure about Dinwiddie. Backups from another team? We'll see.
...
RE: FA: Spencer Dinwiddie Heads to DAL | 1 yr/vet min - DanSchwartzgan - 08-04-2024
I wonder if we are all trying too hard to replicate last season in the way we think of lineups/rotations. To me, one of the main things Dallas tried to do this summer was create positional flexibility and redundancy (I think they also tried to get additional ball handling and more movement shooting, but that is a topic for another day).
Flexibility/Redundancy is just a way of getting through the regular season. It helps with deciding what lineups work when the rotation narrows, but for the first 82 games you need to eat some innings. Outside of Gafford, our main veteran bench is multi-positional. Maxi is a 4/5, Naji is a 3/4, Grimes is a 2/3 and Dinwiddie/Exum are a 1/2's. I'm not sure it matters that much what Hardy/OMax are as they may still be in spare developmental minutes mode with all the veterans we have. If a center is out, you have Maxi/Powell. If PJ is out, you have Maxi/Naji. If Maxi is out and a C/PF starter also goes down, Powell/OMax might come into play.
Moving to the wings, if Thompson is out, you have Naji/Grimes and if one of the star guards is out, you have the veteran threesome of Grimes, Dinwiddie and Exum to cover two positions. Similar to Maxi, Exum seems to get hurt a lot. So, similar to OMax, Hardy's opportunity for real minutes probably comes when Exum is out and one of the star guards is also sitting for some reason.
We tend to have this same rotation/minutes conversation every summer (what else are we supposed to talk about), but when the season arrives Kidd spends 20 games experimenting. Then, someone misses time and then someone else and we never really get to see what the rotation is. Even all of this Maxi talk is tainted by injury. First, Maxi was out. When he came back, he got way more minutes alongside a center than without one. Then Lively missed time toward the end of the season and Maxi was the small-ball five some. Our memory says that was a thing, but if you go back and look at the regular season box scores there were very few times Maxi spent more than few minutes at center when Lively/Gafford were healthy.
We have very good redundancy. It looks like overcrowding if you are dead set that Hardy/OMax will get minutes. If you let go of that, it is 11 players with Gafford, Maxi, Naji, Grimes, Exum and Dinwiddie off the bench. Kidd often played 11, but he used DJJ as kind of a feaux starter to create extra minutes for the bench. He doesn't have that luxury with Thompson. So, playing all six bench vets will be tough when we are healthy. But, when are we ever fully healthy? Almost never which is why a team with top 2-3 seed aspirations needs this kind of redundancy. We are at the point where home court might be the edge we need to win a championship. For the first time in a long time, we have the kind of depth needed to sustain us when a couple of guys go down at the same time.
RE: FA: Spencer Dinwiddie Heads to DAL | 1 yr/vet min - loki - 08-04-2024
I was hoping the Mavs would add another 4/5 instead of Dinwiddie, but I understand why they went this route. They can't have another playoff repeat of the minutes with Kyrie off the court. Might as well give yourself one more possible option to deal with the problem.
![[Image: kyrie.jpg]](https://i.ibb.co/f80q8Tg/kyrie.jpg)
RE: FA: Spencer Dinwiddie Heads to DAL | 1 yr/vet min - mvossman - 08-04-2024
(08-04-2024, 03:38 AM)F Gump Wrote: Again this is not accurate info.In the most recent set of games, the playoffs:Maxi + PJ had a net rating of -5Maxi + Lively net rating of +4
This idea that Luka is the PG at all times is not accurate from a defensive standpoint. Do you really think he chases around PGs?
Luka's still the PG on the floor, regardless of who he happens to defend. We all know that. No one ever thought of DJJ as getting minutes at PG, even though he often defended the PG on the other team.
Naji was brought in to replace DJJ and Grimes was brought in to replace Green, both of whom got more minutes than Maxi.... I'm not sure why Naji and Grimes need to force their way to their minutes? They were brought in to play roles that ....
That idea that this one was intended to be a replacement for that one may be accurate on paper and in the front office, but reality is that new kids without a strong resume typically have to prove their worth. I think they will get some run to start the season, but I don't think they will be handed anything. They'll have to work their way up the pecking order, if they can.These guys were backups elsewhere, not all-stars or something. I think Kidd will kinda cater to the set of players he knows and trusts, that drove the train, until he figures out who he can trust and how. Or not. Think Wood, C. I expect that set he trusts will includes the 4 returning starters plus Klay, plus Lively, Maxi, and probably Exum as well. Not sure about Dinwiddie. Backups from another team? We'll see.
So you complained earlier that I use small sample, and then use a smaller sample to make your argument.
I'm not sure what your point/argument is regarding Luka being a PG on offense. Clearly the fact that Luka is generally the second biggest player on the court and generally guards forwards has an impact to lineup construction.
I don't know where you are getting the idea that backups from other teams need to earn their strips (Wood was an exception due to being knucklehead). We started Grant, PJ and freaking Mcgee immediately. All were backups prior. Hell, DJJ was a backup min signing and started almost immediately. Kidd plays what he needs, and what he is going to need off the bench is defense. Given that Naji and Grimes are his best (non center) defensive options off the bench, its more likely they are going to have to play their way out of the rotation (like Grant and McGee did).
RE: FA: Spencer Dinwiddie Heads to DAL | 1 yr/vet min - Ghost of Podkolzin - 08-04-2024
Maxi at the 5 should be limited to garbage minutes. One thing everyone ignores is how little Maxi plays.
For the last 2 years he's averaging around 20% of the minutes available to him. Outside of a few games where he may get on a streak, Maxi is done. I really want Nance Jr.
RE: FA: Spencer Dinwiddie Heads to DAL | 1 yr/vet min - Smitty - 08-04-2024
The Maxi talk is a bit extreme imo. He’s played 930 minutes and 871 minutes the last two seasons. I suspect he’ll play about 800 minutes or less this year. Hardly worth getting worked up about either way.
Powell played 836 minutes last year and we don’t talk about him anymore…
RE: FA: Spencer Dinwiddie Heads to DAL | 1 yr/vet min - Ghost of Podkolzin - 08-04-2024
(08-04-2024, 11:45 AM)Smitty Wrote: The Maxi talk is a bit extreme imo. He’s played 930 minutes and 871 minutes the last two seasons. I suspect he’ll play about 800 minutes or less this year. Hardly worth getting worked up about either way.
Powell played 836 minutes last year and we don’t talk about him anymore…
Ya, this is precisely my point, or better... let's upgrade him.
Thoughts on a PF/C swing replacement? Ideally I'd love Zach Collins, but am good with Nance Jr.