(07-31-2025, 11:17 AM)KillerLeft Wrote: I think the situations are pretty comparable, yes. 

I think Luka has become overrated, and fairly significantly. Now, if/when he actually becomes the player I expected him to be after his first couple of seasons, I'll give it to him. But, I'm happy I don't have to hope it happens in a Mavs uniform anymore, because I was losing hope.

(07-31-2025, 11:29 AM)mvossman Wrote: Man, I feel like this is your dislike of his playstyle bleeding into your assessment of his play.  When this team gets into the playoffs I think it will be apparent how much we miss his elite offensive creation.

(07-31-2025, 11:41 AM)KillerLeft Wrote: I don't disagree with either statement. I think the team WILL miss his creation, no question. But, I also believe that he is FAR from understanding how to apply his skills to beat an elite team in a 7-game series. He doesn't make his team better, contrary to popular opinion around here - his team just benefits from him being great. That's not the same thing, and you have to be good the first way if you're going to have the ball in your hands all the time. Maybe he'll figure it out, but when I read the phrase "revenge tour"...that isn't the right mindset to make the kind of adjustment I, personally, believe needs to be made.

(07-31-2025, 11:59 AM)mvossman Wrote: I think if we make quality incremental moves this team would eventually have won it all.

(07-31-2025, 12:10 PM)KillerLeft Wrote: Well, we agree on a lot, but this is where we disconnect.

(07-31-2025, 12:14 PM)mvossman Wrote: Yep.  You had asked earlier are we better off now (after landing Flagg) than we would have been if Nico sat on his hands at the TDL (assuming we don't land Flagg anyways).  I think we would have had a better chance winning a championship in the next 7 years (including last season) if Nico stands pat.  I'm afraid Flagg timeline wont fit with Kyrie/AD and there is a very good chance he won't be as good of player (although more well rounded) than Luka.

(07-31-2025, 01:58 PM)mvossman Wrote: So Luka gets some positive pub and the Mavs have to throw out some dirt (vis Marc Spears).  This organization lack of class is very disappointing.

(07-30-2025, 10:28 PM)KillerLeft Wrote: Nah. At some point, someone called the Mark Aguire trade "the defining moment in franchise history." 

There is no such thing. People die. New people are born. The world keeps spinning.

(07-31-2025, 11:59 AM)mvossman Wrote: Man, I just don't see this either.  He beat what I consider an elite team in OKC in a 7 game series.  We started a vet min guy, a rookie and a guy we just traded for at the TDL.  There was a lot of room to improve on a team that just won the West.  I think if we make quality incremental moves this team would eventually have won it all.

(08-01-2025, 04:56 AM)F Gump Wrote: "We only needed to tweak the roster a bit to get to the next level imo. Moving Maxi/OMax and a pick for a solid rotation caliber 3/4 wing was about all we  needed."

Yes, I would have liked to see it play out with Luka too.

However ... The idea that titles were inevitable if they had just continued on the same path with tweaks to upgrade is somewhat true, but ignores a MAJOR part of that expectation. To be real (rather than wishing to relive a memory that never was) the next level did require Luka to be healthy and in shape. If not, he had peaked already. I'm not saying it was a given that he was doomed to injury-plagued years and staying out of shape, but it was DEFINITELY the case for the whole 2024-25 season, and we can't assume that what we saw in 2024-25 was going to be the exception rather than the rule, either.

I also have to admit his heliocentric style may have reached its peak.
(1) The league catches up fast, when you do well, and figures out how to counter and hit your weaknesses.
(2) No matter how you upgrade the roster, if your offense is one-on-five with the rest of your team reduced to minor roles, and your defense is four-on-five (because one of your players is more interested in resting and barking at the refs with some degree of regularity), it's going to be an uphill battle to beat a team that uses all 5 players on both ends. I always assumed he would become more team oriented as he gained experience, but not sure that was ever REALLY the case.
(3) As an enjoyment feature, I am with KL that a lot of Luka's habits had gotten tiresome, especially the one where if he couldn't see a way (or didn't have the energy) to make a good play-possession, he might just settle for a step-back 3 from wherever, and sometimes early in the shot clock because he had the ball and he could. Very frustrating that he felt he would rather just chuck it rather than give the teammates or the possession a quality opportunity. This was getting worse, not better.
(4) Oh, and this part -- "Moving Maxi/OMax and a pick for a solid rotation caliber 3/4 wing was about all we  needed" -- c'mon, that's fantasy to the point of ridiculousness. As if we can just name our offer, even with mediocre assets (two barely playable guys with multi-year obligations to be saddled with), and take whatever we want to fit our needs. I have to think that if THAT was ever out there to be had, it would have happened long ago, and the instant it was offered.

Anyhow, whatever. Luka Era is over. Now I wanna see what the Flagg Era has to offer.

(08-01-2025, 04:56 AM)F Gump Wrote: "We only needed to tweak the roster a bit to get to the next level imo. Moving Maxi/OMax and a pick for a solid rotation caliber 3/4 wing was about all we  needed."

Yes, I would have liked to see it play out with Luka too.

However ... The idea that titles were inevitable if they had just continued on the same path with tweaks to upgrade is somewhat true, but ignores a MAJOR part of that expectation. To be real (rather than wishing to relive a memory that never was) the next level did require Luka to be healthy and in shape. If not, he had peaked already. I'm not saying it was a given that he was doomed to injury-plagued years and staying out of shape, but it was DEFINITELY the case for the whole 2024-25 season, and we can't assume that what we saw in 2024-25 was going to be the exception rather than the rule, either.

I also have to admit his heliocentric style may have reached its peak.
(1) The league catches up fast, when you do well, and figures out how to counter and hit your weaknesses.
(2) No matter how you upgrade the roster, if your offense is one-on-five with the rest of your team reduced to minor roles, and your defense is four-on-five (because one of your players is more interested in resting and barking at the refs with some degree of regularity), it's going to be an uphill battle to beat a team that uses all 5 players on both ends. I always assumed he would become more team oriented as he gained experience, but not sure that was ever REALLY the case.
(3) As an enjoyment feature, I am with KL that a lot of Luka's habits had gotten tiresome, especially the one where if he couldn't see a way (or didn't have the energy) to make a good play-possession, he might just settle for a step-back 3 from wherever, and sometimes early in the shot clock because he had the ball and he could. Very frustrating that he felt he would rather just chuck it rather than give the teammates or the possession a quality opportunity. This was getting worse, not better.
(4) Oh, and this part -- "Moving Maxi/OMax and a pick for a solid rotation caliber 3/4 wing was about all we  needed" -- c'mon, that's fantasy to the point of ridiculousness. As if we can just name our offer, even with mediocre assets (two barely playable guys with multi-year obligations to be saddled with), and take whatever we want to fit our needs. I have to think that if THAT was ever out there to be had, it would have happened long ago, and the instant it was offered.

Anyhow, whatever. Luka Era is over. Now I wanna see what the Flagg Era has to offer.

(08-01-2025, 05:35 AM)HoosierDaddyKid Wrote: FG, you nailed it.

(08-01-2025, 10:49 AM)DL2RimRocker Wrote: And the whole out of shape argument just seems a bit out of proportion. If Luka's game was dependent on athleticism the concern would certainly be completely valid. But Luka was normally the slowest and least athletic person on the floor but still was able to get to any spot he wanted. 

(08-01-2025, 11:23 AM)KillerLeft Wrote: You make some good points, but I disagree with the above. 

Go watch Luka in the bubble playoffs and tell me his athleticism hadn't become a concern. Part of it was that Carlisle's understanding of how to create operating space far exceed's Kidd's (but apparently, Luka's preferences were part of the reason for abandoning that space, too), but THAT version of Luka was routinely beating his man off the dribble, living in the paint. That's the player I liked watching.

(07-31-2025, 05:44 PM)RoyTarpleysGhost Wrote: ?

(08-01-2025, 10:18 PM)DL2RimRocker Wrote: I cant disagree with that but I will say Luka does know how to use his fat body to his advantage at times. 

Bottom line for me is that I just dont see an alpha on this team and that will become evident and problematic for them in tight games and in the POs.
I thought that was one of Houston's biggest problems last year. 

There were a lot of things I didnt like about Luka as mentioned by you, FG and myself, but he was an alpha on this team and had the knack for getting buckets in crucial times. Most of the top tier teams have at one but I cant say we clearly do.

(07-31-2025, 12:20 PM)KillerLeft Wrote: And I disagree (with the idea they were clearly on a path to winning, not commenting on the comparison), but more importantly, I'm not sure I'd have even enjoyed a championship built around Luka (at least the version of him we were starting to get consistently). He had become tough to root for. The last fun Luka moment for me was when he buried the Suns in the first half of that game 7, and those moments had become fewer and fewer. It had gotten to the point where all of them were about him putting up huge scoring totals.