(07-03-2025, 02:50 PM)Smitty Wrote: Dan and I went back and forth on the Martin+Max idea yesterday or the day before. I was hesitant at first, but I'd pull the trigger because I think Herb is the best perimeter defender in the NBA, and that's what you need in the playoffs next to Kyrie in the backcourt.

(07-03-2025, 02:57 PM)KillerLeft Wrote: But, you keep suggesting that doubling down on the roster imbalance is the way to go (unless I'm misunderstanding you). I don't WANT the plan to be Kyrie and a bunch of guys who can't handle the ball or shoot, so telling me that's the plan doesn't win this idea a lot of points from me. I definitely agree that Jones would solve the last remaining defensive hurdle - POA. But, the offense would get even worse, and isn't that the real enemy now?

(07-03-2025, 03:14 PM)RoyTarpleysGhost Wrote: OKC
Denver
Houston
Min
LAC
Golden State
LAL
Dallas
San Antonio
Memphis

is my current power rankings for regular season record.

(07-03-2025, 03:16 PM)Smitty Wrote: The roster is already imbalanced and will remain that way for as long as AD wants to have a Big in the lineup with him.

(07-03-2025, 03:11 PM)F Gump Wrote: I follow. Missed it, apparently.

However, I do have to disagree w your mantra above.

I have observed if you shoot poorly where you can't space the floor, you likely sit in the playoffs. So he may be playoff-unplayable. Even more, w 2025 Mavs, shooting seems to be an even bigger issue needing to be addressed.

One quibble - his injury issue imo is not a minor issue at all and is one which I have noted several times. Maybe a deal-killer by itself, frankly. Wonder if Mavs would even consider him at all, until he's known to be healed fully.

(07-03-2025, 02:57 PM)KillerLeft Wrote: I think you're both right (and wrong).

FGump is far too harsh on evaluation of Jones in terms of what he does well, imo. You and I are aligned there. He's such an impactful on-ball defender that if he were somehow magically here, he'd be playing ahead of some of the names Gump is suggesting that he'd be behind. PJW, just as an example, is a different sort of forward than Jones, and I'm really high on PJ, but Jones is in a different class of player, so you'd change your rotation to suit Jones, not try to make Jones work in a world that already includes PJW's role being set. And Marshall isn't even worth thinking about, because Jones would take 100% of his job here before his flight into Dallas landed. 

But, you keep suggesting that doubling down on the roster imbalance is the way to go (unless I'm misunderstanding you). I don't WANT the plan to be Kyrie and a bunch of guys who can't handle the ball or shoot, so telling me that's the plan doesn't win this idea a lot of points from me. I definitely agree that Jones would solve the last remaining defensive hurdle - POA. But, the offense would get even worse, and isn't that the real enemy now?

(07-03-2025, 03:42 PM)F Gump Wrote: You say I am too harsh on HJ. And in the next paragraph, you offer the very issue I have noted re him as a big problem - his poor ability to shoot and space the floor, esp w a Mavs team badly in need of such.

Yes HJ is a very good defender. Never said otherwise.

However you must be able to help on 2 ends, not one. Platoon hoops is a dead end in April-June. Period. Since forever. Why? Because playing 4-on-5 is a recipe for failure, because your inability will impact everyone else on the floor. So I really see no future in chasing one-end only players.

Hate him all you want but PJW is a 2-way player in a real way. So is NM, even if a lower level of skill. If HJ could make 3s, he works imo, however he is meh, so I would pass.

Again - I imagine he's off the Mavs radar anyhow because of injury, so he's not even being looked at.

(07-03-2025, 03:29 PM)Smitty Wrote: Herb 36.6%

(07-03-2025, 04:02 PM)Smitty Wrote: Didn't mean to highjack the thread with Herb Jones talk... It sounds like the player you two are describing is more like Coby White. 6-5 Guard that can initiate and space the floor.
So, let's go get him with Martin+Max

(07-03-2025, 04:04 PM)KillerLeft Wrote: Adding Coby White to this team makes them a championship contender, imo, yes. There would actually be the optionality in play style everyone claims they have already. 

I don't think they can afford him, and I'm not sure Harrison would even want to if he could (kind of the point you've been making).

(07-03-2025, 04:08 PM)KillerLeft Wrote: I'd be on the phone begging Chicago to give me Coby White, and would be suer happy to include Gafford to get it done. But, that's just me.

(07-03-2025, 03:50 PM)KillerLeft Wrote: Well, ultimately, I agree with you. But even before the Luka trade, when I felt it made a lot of sense to target Jones, you pushed back, leading me to believe your appreciation for what he brings to the table might be a little wanting (or maybe mine is too generous?). 

Here's what I would point to to defend where Smitty is coming from (although, again, my vote would be for your side of the argument, I think):

You spent much of last season trying to dream of scenarios that would result in DJJ coming back here from the LAC. You were never a believer in the idea that Naji Marshall was an upgrade to him, whatsoever, and seemed to view that entire turnaround as a pretty big misstep last summer. I don't want to put words in your mouth, but I'm pretty confident that you felt that way remembering past conversations, so...picture the gap in on-ball defensive ability between Marshall and DJJ. My opinion is that Herb Jones represents the same gap in the same ability, but on the other side of DJJ, as in he's that much better. I could be wrong about that, and I certainly agree with your assessments of both the shooting and injury history being a problem. And, I can't really claim to fully understand how anyone from that mess of a team in New Orleans translates to another team. And, I think it's pretty pointless to look around the league for available forwards Dallas should target, regardless of who they are or what they can do, but...

That's what I mean. It's only my opinion, but I think Herb Jones is a borderline special player. A real gem of a get. I really don't think he's any less of a two-way guy than DJJ was, it's just that the context of what Dallas' situation around him would be has changed. I'm not sure DJJ would work here now, either.

(07-03-2025, 04:12 PM)Smitty Wrote: Couldn't agree more. Moves AD to the 5 and gives you two playmakers at guard. Getting closer to living in my perfect basketball world...

(07-03-2025, 04:24 PM)F Gump Wrote: Yes I preferred DJJ over Naji. I saw DJJ as a very good (special in some ways, esp physical gifts) defender - who makes 3s. IMO it is a vital skill for a plus defender who is not so good on O, especially in this era. 3-and-D? Yes. O-and-D? No. Because he must be able to be a help on offense, period.

I saw DJJ as having improved enough on 3-making where he was a keeper and on a plus trajectory on 3's at eoy 2024. Early in last season, it held up. However - on reviewing his year, he may not have improved on 3's, actually, in which case he was no loss.

I believe in 3-and-D, because I want good defenders but many are ONLY good on D, and I feel an inability of a player to play one end is a major obstacle to team success. Your ace of a defender must somehow help on O, so it's not a 4-on-5 game. An old Nellie truism and he was hoops-wise.

ADDING - If I saw HJ as someone who could make 3s, and as someone who would be 100% from injury, I would love a swap for him. I like his defense. Of course. However, I see his issues as real deal killers for me. I need someone who can make 3s, and is healthy.