(06-27-2024, 06:13 PM)DanSchwartzgan Wrote: Did I read correctly that Denver paid 3 second-round picks to move on from a reasonably useful Reggie's Jackson's $5.2mm contract.  So, does it take 9 seconds to move on from the reasonably useful THJ at $16mm?

Do we still think the Toronto second is going to move THJ to the Pistons AND get us Grimes?

(06-27-2024, 06:17 PM)Chicagojk Wrote: Yeah, that is not a great sign.   I don't want to give up 25 first and wouldn't for Grimes.  If DJJ was really my priority would I give it up for DFS for Hardaway?  hmmm..not sure.

(06-27-2024, 06:13 PM)DanSchwartzgan Wrote: Did I read correctly that Denver paid 3 second-round picks to move on from a reasonably useful Reggie's Jackson's $5.2mm contract.  So, does it take 9 seconds to move on from the reasonably useful THJ at $16mm?

Do we still think the Toronto second is going to move THJ to the Pistons AND get us Grimes?

(06-27-2024, 06:05 PM)SleepingHero Wrote: Im not gonna lose sleep over a bunch of random 2-way guys in this draft.

(06-27-2024, 06:19 PM)KillerLeft Wrote: So you’d prefer DFS over Grimes. Interesting.

(06-27-2024, 06:22 PM)Chicagojk Wrote: I think so.  I am just not sure what Grimes is.    I feel confident even an older DFS can be on the floor in a big playoff moment and I will have confidence in him making a big shot.   I am not sure what Grimes is.

I really want to hold on to 25 for a higher quality player or keeping the pick to draft.

(06-27-2024, 06:26 PM)KillerLeft Wrote: It seems like part of the equation is that you’re not super into DJJ. I’m sold on the part he played in this run, and think he’s about to start showing up on “best defenders” lists.

(06-27-2024, 06:13 PM)DanSchwartzgan Wrote: Did I read correctly that Denver paid 3 second-round picks to move on from a reasonably useful Reggie's Jackson's $5.2mm contract.  So, does it take 9 seconds to move on from the reasonably useful THJ at $16mm?

Do we still think the Toronto second is going to move THJ to the Pistons AND get us Grimes?

(06-27-2024, 06:22 PM)Chicagojk Wrote: I think so.  I am just not sure what Grimes is.    I feel confident even an older DFS can be on the floor in a big playoff moment and I will have confidence in him making a big shot.   I am not sure what Grimes is.

I really want to hold on to 25 for a higher quality player or keeping the pick to draft.

A DJJ. Green, DFS and PJ wing rotation looks solid.  Not perfect and losing 25 hurts and may not be something I would do.   I could be convinced Grimes is the better option.  I just dont know.

(06-27-2024, 03:09 PM)KillerLeft Wrote: I'm caught up on this thread now, and had to go back and search this one out. Too interesting to pass up. I think this helps me understand a lot of what causes you and I to disagree on some of this stuff, despite my general feeling that you really get the game. 

The only thing I agree with from the list above is the Kleber part. He's a 5, has been a 5, and it's pretty undeniable. I agree with the shooting point you're making (uncommon range at the 5 turns to "way too slow of a release" at the 4 in the blink of an eye), and would actually double down and say that foot speed goes from being a huge positive on defense as 5 to a slight negative as 4, too. 

The other three assertions intrigue me. In each case, I'd have said the opposite. 

I don't think ANYONE is "a PG" anymore, at least not in the way that (I think) you mean. To my way of thinking, a guard who can't handle the ball, and I don't just mean bringing it up, but actually able to floor the ball to create an advantage for himself (and yes, for others) isn't useful in today's NBA. We are watching guys like Hield, Hardaway, Robinson, Redick, etc, fade away in live time. That's kind of dying breed now - those who are flourishing in that role are now 6'6"-6'9" and play forward. What some argue is the Mavs "trying to make Hardy a PG" is really just "trying to make Hardy play NBA basketball as a guard" to me. It's interesting to me that so many have a problem with this. 

And THAT'S probably why I see Green as a 3. I think he's a 3/2, to be fair, but I'd FOR SURE put the 3 first. He's really fast...for a 3. Speed doesn't pop at the 2. He's got a great handle and is a great passer...for a 3. Sub-par dribbling/playmaking skills for a guard, imo. He has become a decent shooter...for a 3. His release looks better every year, but he's still passing up way too many shots, and in the blink of an eye, it seems that EVERY guard out there can string complex dribble moves together to create a long jumper (off of the dribble) out of some type of step back or side step. I think he can (or should be able to) GAURD other guards, and I LOVE that about him (in theory). 

Totally agree that DJJ, on offense, is under qualified as a starter. However, he did better than I expected him to do with his shooting this season. Like, way better. Are we sure he can't get even more comfortable as a catch and shoot guy, now that he's FINALLY getting a chance? I'm not, but I do see where you're coming from here. Still, did you see the list I posted the other day about "league leaders in % of their minutes being spent defending the opponent's best scoring ball-handler?" DJJ was in first place by a mile, at 54%. I really, really think we've become a little desensitized to just HOW GOOD the dude was on defense this season. This is no small thing, imho. If you can make the team better by replacing him as a starter, cool, and it's not like he's so good I don't think that's possible. And, I think he'd still be impactful off the bench. But, he was INTEGRAL to the team's success down the stretch and in the playoffs, so it's not like I'm going to be disappointed if he's the opening night starter, know what I mean?

(06-27-2024, 06:20 PM)SleepingHero Wrote: Different situations really. DEN is desperately trying to retain KCP. They're about 5 mil from the 1st apron now and still have to carve out some more space to get to the number KCP is looking for and stay under the 2nd apron.


So I still do (foolishly) think THJ can net us Grimes without the inclusion of anything more than the TOR 2nd just because of how stacked the 2025 class is supposed to be.

(06-27-2024, 06:20 PM)SleepingHero Wrote: Different situations really. DEN is desperately trying to retain KCP. They're about 5 mil from the 1st apron now and still have to carve out some more space to get to the number KCP is looking for and stay under the 2nd apron.


So I still do (foolishly) think THJ can net us Grimes without the inclusion of anything more than the TOR 2nd just because of how stacked the 2025 class is supposed to be.

(06-27-2024, 07:39 PM)Smitty Wrote: Hardy - when I say PG I don’t mean 90’s PG. I mean initiate the offense, on ball PnR as the ball handler, making decisions out of double teams, etc.. I’d call Kyrie a PG even though he’s a SG here. But Hardy is a carbon copy of Tim Hardaway Jr to me. Play exclusively off ball, CnS threes, a bit of two dribble pull up in the mid range. I never want Tim to be a decision maker in the same way I don’t want Hardy to be one.

Green - he is undersized as a forward, on switches he’s not big enough to have any real impact on the opponent’s shot. Because he’s so bad at screen navigation, he gets matched up on forwards regardless but he needs to get better at it. On offense I think he’s more than capable of being a decision maker, running some PnR actions, moving off the ball/slashing and being a traditional 2 but LuKai are here so naturally his role will only be an undersized forward. Still not his natural position, which is my point.

(06-27-2024, 08:47 PM)KillerLeft Wrote: You make some good points. I just reach different conclusions than you do. I think it's pretty clear that Hardy has developed quite a bit as an offensive decision maker, and if you limit him to catch and shoots and 2-3 tried and true two-dribble shot solutions, I think you're turning your back on what the Mavs liked about him, which is, in my opinion, his plethora of really polished iso counters, mostly in the mid-range. I think he's really quite advanced in some ways, offensively. And, I think he's starting to make the right pass, and accurately, when he actually looks to pass. For me, all he has to do is stop over-penetrating. BUT, I sure as heck don't want to take away his license to penetrate, because he's REALLY good at it, and that's something the Mavs need. In order for him to play that way, he needs the ball, and in order for him to have the ball, he needs to be able to play PG, at least a little, especially in this kind of offense. I honestly thought the progress he made this year on this front was encouraging, and I'm expecting a big year from him next season if he's here. 

I agree with some of what you're saying about Green's defense. He's never going to bother someone like Jason Tatum, for example. So, from that perspective, I agree that he's not that type of forward. But, as long as Luka Doncic is on this team, they'll need smaller quicker guys who can play forward on offense and credibly guard down. Totally agree that screen navigation has to improve if he's to be worthwhile at any position for much longer. And my goodness, do we see a different player on offense. His handle is decent, and he CAN make passes. I like when he has the ball in transition. But "running some PnR?" I couldn't disagree with that more if I tried, and compared to him, I think Hardy is Chris Paul. Right now. 

Still, thanks for responding. I wish more people got into this stuff around here, personally. I'll argue with you anytime.

(06-27-2024, 09:14 PM)Smitty Wrote: I think we disagree on those two and that’s perfectly fine and normal. I appreciate your willingness to dive into this stuff on here. I respect your opinion whether you believe it or not.

In the past few months we’ve had a few moments but I hope you know I mean no disrespect, ever! I love that we have this forum to discuss these things. This is probably your type of thing more than it is mine because I’m terrible at putting my thoughts on paper but when I say you’re the loudest voice here, it’s a token of respect because you and others like you keep this place alive!