(03-03-2025, 09:12 AM)SleepingHero Wrote: I like ACMFFL's compairson to Jimmy Butler this last TDL. Butler forced his way out, demanded a trade to a contender that will give him an extension, and did everything he could to make it happen. 

KD is obviously done with PHX now. He took offense to be included in trade talks this last TDL, he has clashed with Budenholzer, and PHX as a whole are sinking. Now Shams reports "If PHX doesn't get their act together, KD and the team will work together to find him a trade to a place of his choosing"

That to me has already signaled that KD is out of there, and both of them are just biding their time till the end of the season where they can amicably move on. 

And in the case of Jimmy, he went for Wiggins+Anderson+Mitchell+protected late FRP this year. Wiggins is a solid player that's overpaid and has reliability issues mentally. Anderson was salary filler and end of bench player. Davion Mitchell is a young prospect that hasn't really amounted to much.

Already a Mavs package of Gaff+PJ+Klay is 10x better than that package. But that makes sense given that KD is a better player than Butler.

(03-03-2025, 09:58 AM)Scott41theMavs Wrote: No PJ. I'd rather have him than KD at this point, period.

(03-03-2025, 10:36 AM)KillerLeft Wrote: This is covered ground, of course, but I'll say it again: my hope is that KD isn't even considered. The contract is just too disruptive.

(03-03-2025, 10:48 AM)SleepingHero Wrote: That's fair, although I disagree. The clock is ticking faster now more than ever. And I just look at our current roster and see two different schools of thought plaguing it. Nico constructed one of the best Luka teams the Mavs ever built, then promptly traded away the Luka part of that. It makes guys to me like Naji, Klay, and PJ (although much less on PJ) more expendable. We have maybe 2-3 years left with Kyrie+AD. 

We still need more offensive creation and shooting, and a reliable go-to iso player. Kyrie has been that in spades since the trade, but he is literally the only elite player on this team that can do that. And despite his immense talent, Kyrie is still easier to shut down given his size and game. 

KD alleviates that issue. He also brings size and switchability. KD is one of the few players in the league that can keep pace with Luka's offense and does so on very high efficiency. Now KD cannot create looks like Luka, but Kidd's new system is hell bent on anti-heliocentric ball as possible. So while KD cannot create the looks traditionally, his gravity should open up way more looks for everyone else in this ball movement system. 

And really, are we married to any of the guys that we're shipping out for KD? Gafford and potentially PJ are the only ones that sting, but we wouldn't be building around them regardless if the team heads towards a rebuild. Further as FGump pointed out, they provide pretty great value to a 3rd team that can help mitigate the cost of a potential KD trade. 


Finally we've seen KD+Kyrie play together before and they were a terrifying duo. They took the Bucks to 7 and were 1 KD toe nail  away from potentially going to the  finals. Now add Davis to that instead of Harden and you have a very balanced trio whose strengths play off each other. Health will always be the caveat going forward, but I'd rather we go for it now that the front office has made their choices.

(03-03-2025, 09:58 AM)Scott41theMavs Wrote: No PJ. I'd rather have him than KD at this point, period.

(03-03-2025, 10:51 AM)KillerLeft Wrote: Some good points here - I'm just out on the three max guys model. It's that simple for me. I like having two and a good team around them. Plus, KD is just soooo old. I'm not a guy who thinks any age that starts with 3 is a problem, but a 36 year old max guy who you have to give up most of the rest of your youth to get seems like the worst possible move to me.

(03-03-2025, 01:10 PM)SleepingHero Wrote: Oh 100% on the three max model. It's an archaic way of building in this new CBA and restrains you hard in building a balanced team. KD is also as old as it gets for a superstar. There is no real good way to explain those things away and I agree with you! 


But the reason why I'm advocating for the KD trade is because the Mavs HAD the 2 max+good team model that was proven to work. They chose to go away from that. I don't think Kyrie+AD is good enough to seriously compete for a championship. Yet all we've heard is we're trying to win now and how this move allows them to win more. To me, this was more Nico saying he is going all in no matter what. Adding KD to that duo does make a ALOT of basketball sense on paper. Keeping Lively and Christie as the other 2 guys in the starting lineup also might be just enough to create a deeper team than we've seen recently on this 3 max guy model.

PHX before trading for Beal had CP3+Booker+Durant+Craig+Ayton as their starting 5. And while we can poke holes in it, that is a deeper more balanced team than where they are today. 

Kyrie+Christie+KD+AD+Lively is a helluva starting lineup and I think that's all that Nico cares about right now.

(03-03-2025, 10:51 AM)KillerLeft Wrote: Some good points here - I'm just out on the three max guys model. It's that simple for me. I like having two and a good team around them. Plus, KD is just soooo old. I'm not a guy who thinks any age that starts with 3 is a problem, but a 36 year old max guy who you have to give up most of the rest of your youth to get seems like the worst possible move to me.

(03-03-2025, 03:56 PM)audiosway Wrote: I tend to 100% agree with you. I don't think the 3 super star model works consistently. Especially under the current CBA. I don't want to gut the team over a guy who will be 37 on a max deal.

(03-03-2025, 07:04 PM)F Gump Wrote: There has never been anything wrong with the 3-star model. Many teams over the years have used it to win big, typically more than 1 title.

The obstacle the Mavs face is that the rules governing payroll have been changed, making it difficult (although technically not impossible) to build out enough talent on the roster around the 3 stars. Can it be done despite those rules? It's still really early to say for certain, since these rules only came into existence in 2023.

But say, for example, the Mavs indeed had all 3 of AD, Kyrie, and KD. They would need more, but if they could keep all of PJ, Christie, and Lively, with room to re-sign Exum (yes all of that would be cap-legal), now you have a 7-man core to work with, not just 3. And you can keep those 7 men together as long as you want to, and perhaps you can find and add a key title-chasing vet or 2 at times to take a minimum and jump on the bandwagon. It works and keeps on working just so long as the owner is willing to pay the price in tax, and the players continue to play well. At some point, the run will come to an end, but to me it does look like a really scary team to face:
 
Lively AD
AD PJ
KD PJ
Christie Exum
Kyrie Exum

I've seen objections stated re PJ, but I don't buy it. Someone among your top 6 would have to be sold on the value of being 6th Man, true, but to me it's about having 6 Starter-level talents rather than 5. Great teams of the past made it work. There would definitely be plenty of minutes to go around. You keep the talent, and find ways to work your rotations to utilize ALL the talent. Since when is "the top talent would be too deep" a real problem?

(03-03-2025, 07:04 PM)F Gump Wrote: There has never been anything wrong with the 3-star model. Many teams over the years have used it to win big, typically more than 1 title.

The obstacle the Mavs face is that the rules governing payroll have been changed, making it difficult (although technically not impossible) to build out enough talent on the roster around the 3 stars. Can it be done despite those rules? It's still really early to say for certain, since these rules only came into existence in 2023.

But say, for example, the Mavs indeed had all 3 of AD, Kyrie, and KD. They would need more, but if they could keep all of PJ, Christie, and Lively, with room to re-sign Exum (yes all of that would be cap-legal), now you have a 7-man core to work with, not just 3. And you can keep those 7 men together as long as you want to, and perhaps you can find and add a key title-chasing vet or 2 at times to take a minimum and jump on the bandwagon. It works and keeps on working just so long as the owner is willing to pay the price in tax, and the players continue to play well. At some point, the run will come to an end, but to me it does look like a really scary team to face:
 
Lively AD
AD PJ
KD PJ
Christie Exum
Kyrie Exum

I've seen objections stated re PJ, but I don't buy it. Someone among your top 6 would have to be sold on the value of being 6th Man, true, but to me it's about having 6 Starter-level talents rather than 5. Great teams of the past made it work. There would definitely be plenty of minutes to go around. You keep the talent, and find ways to work your rotations to utilize ALL the talent. Since when is "the top talent would be too deep" a real problem?

(03-03-2025, 10:37 PM)ThisIStheYear Wrote: Would it be a promotion for Lindsey to come back here and take Nico’s job? Nico has to go. If not, I hope these owners go bankrupt.

(03-03-2025, 10:01 PM)F Gump Wrote: "I think PJ would be the perfect utility guy to hang on to in a trade like that. I do think they would try to find a way to keep Klay though."

Nico gonna Nico? Perhaps. I do know that if you keep Lively and Christie, then the swap to keeping Klay (instead of PJ) probably costs not only PJ but also Exum. (I figure he would decline 3.5M but accept 6M, or thereabouts.) PJ is a local guy as well, and adds incredible work ethic and intensity. Give me PJ.

"I just think it would take the talents of a different GM than what the Mavs currently have to get KD AND keep Lively, Christie, and PJ."

That insurmountable hurdle is sad and likely very true. But if we are hoping for good things, I'm gonna hope that Nico can figure it out  -- nah, I gotta hope they get another decision maker for negotiations by the summer, because I think Nico being competent is too much to hope for. In looking back at what has happened with and without Lindsey, we discover Nico has NEVER demonstrated any real skills for the GM job.

(03-05-2025, 03:46 PM)michaeltex Wrote: At the risk of over reaction...

I think DAL only real course is to tear it all down to the studs. Trade anyone who has real value in the market, including PJ, DLive, AD, Christie and Gaff, for cheaper players and picks. Then build a roster as cheaply as possible so there is plenty of cap space available. Then become the target of every team needing to off load contracts for cap management or trade facilitation. This is a 2-3 year philosophy.

Once the picks are re-built, hire the best drafter available and start re-building from top-of-the-draft talent.  The young (cheap) talent will re-energize the fan base while still allowing caps space to continue accumulating picks. This is another 2-3 years.

At the end of 5-6 years you make sure to have a GM who is adept at FA trading and has he cojones to play hardball, so you can judiciously add FAs to the growing young core as you (hopefully) become a serious contender. By now the current contenders will be either starting to age out (e.g., OKC, MEM) or waiting on their HOF election (GSW, DEN, BOS).

TBH, I THOUGHT some version of this was in the Mav's plans. Luka + Kyrie + Klay was the old guard while PJ + DLive + Gaff was the young blood. (Luka is old guard because of all his years as a pro in Europe). Have picks and swaps to continue to make deals as interesting upgrades become available and stay contenders for the next decade.

I thought Cuban did a number in 2011, but Nico's gamble has put him to shame.