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+--- Thread: NEWS: Donnie out | Nico Harrison (Nike) as Pres/GM | Fin as VP | Dirk as Advisor (/showthread.php?tid=1042)
RE: NEWS: Donnie Nelson out as Mavs GM | Forde's Sportsology to assist search - dirkfansince1998 - 06-16-2021
(06-16-2021, 10:02 PM)Kammrath Wrote: You hide him behind the likable persona of Finley. Don't let Voulgaris see the light of day as far as the players. Just let him be the silent observer. Keep him in check, but let him really guide the team building process. Again this is IF you believe in him. I am not saying I do, but the man could be a genius for all I know.
I don´t think that is the role Voulgaris envisions for himself.
RE: NEWS: Donnie Nelson out as Mavs GM | Forde's Sportsology to assist search - KillerLeft - 06-16-2021
(06-16-2021, 10:07 PM)TXBamanut Wrote: Voulgaris simply cannot be the only analytics guy that can do what we ask him to do.
Yeah, I'm not throwing my hat in the ring for either team on this Voulgaris stuff. I don't know if the Luka not liking him angle is overblown or not, and I honestly don't care.
What I do care about is that a person who has been immersed in BASKETBALL, not MATH, for all of their professional life is running the team. Now, I of course believe they should avail themselves of any information that could possibly provide a different angle of understanding and help them do their job effectively, so I hope the Mavs have one of the best analytics teams in the league, now and forever.
But I'm with you - a guy like that is easily replaceable, I bet.
RE: NEWS: Donnie Nelson out as Mavs GM | Forde's Sportsology to assist search - Kammrath - 06-16-2021
(06-16-2021, 10:07 PM)KillerLeft Wrote: This feels like an assumption.
Are you saying "analytics guy" = a 5% increase of hits in the draft (maybe)?
So in other words, you think that whoever the BEST drafter in the league is, they must be an analytics guy? Just trying to understand you.
I am just suggesting that analytics (if heavily leaned on) TEND to offer a more predictable and long term hit rate than things like human observance and intuition. Ainge was a GENIUS for a number of years and now is just a guy without a job. Ainge was on a roll that made him look like he had this huge leg up on everyone, but over time he was shown to not be that special of a GM.
I do not think a successful GM has to be an analytics guy, but I think the probability of being a successful GM goes up if you are an analytics guy.
RE: NEWS: Donnie Nelson out as Mavs GM | Forde's Sportsology to assist search - dirkfansince1998 - 06-16-2021
It´s not like Voulgaris is the only well known analytics guy on the roster. The creator of ESPNs RPM Jeremias Engelmann is working for the Mavs as well. The ultimate +/- geek.
RE: NEWS: Donnie Nelson out as Mavs GM | Forde's Sportsology to assist search - Kammrath - 06-16-2021
(06-16-2021, 10:19 PM)dirkfansince1998 Wrote: It´s not like Voulgaris is the only well known analytics guy on the roster. The creator of ESPNs RPM Jeremias Engelmann is working for the Mavs as well. The ultimate +/- geek.
But is he the analytics guy with the most power? And is Cuban looking to give him even more power?
RE: NEWS: Donnie Nelson out as Mavs GM | Forde's Sportsology to assist search - KillerLeft - 06-16-2021
(06-16-2021, 10:17 PM)Kammrath Wrote: I do not think a successful GM has to be an analytics guy, but I think the probability of being a successful GM goes up if you are an analytics guy.
Ok...one more question.
If given the choice between:
1) a guy who has been in basketball all of his life...he played at the college level, scouted for years, worked successfully as a coach at multiple levels, has a relationship with all the owners, GM's, coaches and agents in the business, etc, BUT, he HATES analytics...doesn't track anything, and always goes with his gut, or...
2) a guy who has one of the 10 best minds for interpreting data in the world...has redefined how we view the universe by inventing groundbreaking new statistical math which can be applied in the field of physics, BUT, he has never SEEN a basketball game...
Which guy do you choose?
RE: NEWS: Donnie Nelson out as Mavs GM | Forde's Sportsology to assist search - Hypermav - 06-16-2021
Remember when Ainge and Nelson were in the least trusted category for GM's ranked by 20 agents.
RE: NEWS: Donnie Nelson out as Mavs GM | Forde's Sportsology to assist search - KillerLeft - 06-16-2021
(06-16-2021, 10:31 PM)Hypermav Wrote: Remember when Ainge and Nelson were in the least trusted category for GM's ranked by 20 agents.
Man, whoever they get, I hope agents like them.
On the other hand, I hope we don't wake up in three weeks to read about how cozy the Mavericks are getting with Klutch.
RE: NEWS: Donnie Nelson out as Mavs GM | Forde's Sportsology to assist search - Kammrath - 06-16-2021
(06-16-2021, 10:26 PM)KillerLeft Wrote: Which guy do you choose?
If I am choosing a GM? Then every time I choose the analytics guy.
For a coach? Totally different for me, because the human element is HUGE in the coaching, teaching, training realm.
I do not think a basketball organization can be "all analytics", but I think KEY areas (like talent acquisition) MUST be analytics driven if you want to compete at a high level consistently.
RE: NEWS: Donnie Nelson out as Mavs GM | Forde's Sportsology to assist search - KillerLeft - 06-16-2021
(06-16-2021, 10:33 PM)Kammrath Wrote: I do not think a basketball organization can be "all analytics", but I think KEY areas (like talent acquisition) MUST be analytics driven if you want to compete at a high level consistently.
Yeah, but every time we start to think like this, @"DanSchwartzgan" pops in to remind us that it's really all about agent relationships, and I think he's right.
I'm more with you than how it seems right now, probably, but i think the human side of the GM gig might be even bigger than it is with the coach. The GM is EVERYONE'S boss. The trainers, doctors, PR, in arena entertainment...everyone.
Not to mention that the GM has to maintain relationships with the OTHER TEAMS, too.
RE: NEWS: Donnie Nelson out as Mavs GM | Forde's Sportsology to assist search - ClutchDirk - 06-16-2021
The new GM should also be good at tampering instead of waiting for FA to start...
RE: NEWS: Donnie Nelson out as Mavs GM | Forde's Sportsology to assist search - SleepingHero - 06-16-2021
(06-16-2021, 09:24 PM)Kammrath Wrote: I am open to that because I could see someone like Voulgaris being INCREDIBLY effective if given full reins and decision making is streamlined, but I definitely PREFER an outside voice being given full authority at this point.
I think just based off the last 48 hours that Harlabob is an immature clown that shouldn't be trusted to lead this team at any point, let alone the most pivotal summer of the last 10 years. So I'm not open to him staying on in any capacity at all.
Outside hire is the only way to right this ship in my mind. Time to break up the old boys club and create a new reputation for the Mavs.
RE: NEWS: Donnie Nelson out as Mavs GM | Forde's Sportsology to assist search - Kammrath - 06-16-2021
(06-16-2021, 10:37 PM)KillerLeft Wrote: Yeah, but every time we start to think like this, @DanSchwartzgan pops in to remind us that it's really all about agent relationships, and I think he's right.
I'm more with you than how it seems right now, probably, but i think the human side of the GM gig might be even bigger than it is with the coach. The GM is EVERYONE'S boss. The trainers, doctors, PR, in arena entertainment...everyone.
Not to mention that the GM has to maintain relationships with the OTHER TEAMS, too.
And this is EXACTLY why I was suggesting hiding someone like Voulgaris behind someone like Finley.
Finley would be "President of Basketball Operations" and would be the boss of all those parties you mentioned. He would also be the guy who relates to the agents and the guy who works through the dynamics of negotiations.....
....BUT then you would have someone like Voulgaris who is the "Head of Roster Management" (or something like that). He would have the authority to guide the roster building and actually direct Finley in who to pursue, what kind of balance to find in trades, and size of contracts.
Does what I am envisioning make any sense?
RE: NEWS: Donnie Nelson out as Mavs GM | Forde's Sportsology to assist search - SleepingHero - 06-16-2021
(06-16-2021, 10:02 PM)Kammrath Wrote: You hide him behind the likable persona of Finley. Don't let Voulgaris see the light of day as far as the players. Just let him be the silent observer. Keep him in check, but let him really guide the team building process. Again this is IF you believe in him. I am not saying I do, but the man could be a genius for all I know.
Further, Voulgaris couldn't hide behind the most likeable milquetoast GM in the league in Donnie (who was already in good graces with Luka). It's obvious the guy feels like he's the smartest guy in the room and will let others know it. Just the fact that there's 1 instance of Harlabob annoying Luka should immediately disqualify him from the job.
RE: NEWS: Donnie Nelson out as Mavs GM | Forde's Sportsology to assist search - Hypermav - 06-16-2021
(06-16-2021, 10:42 PM)ClutchDirk Wrote: The new GM should also be good at tampering instead of waiting for FA to start...
A dark web gambler crypto genius could handle that.
RE: NEWS: Donnie Nelson out as Mavs GM | Forde's Sportsology to assist search - cow - 06-16-2021
Finley could work out great and all but he'd be pretty disappointing given he has track record. It just feels like Mark Cuban's version of the Jason Garrett HC promotion. I wish we'd just clean house. I'm sure more than one person had their hand in our failed draft picks, free agency recruiting and trades.
RE: NEWS: Donnie Nelson out as Mavs GM | Forde's Sportsology to assist search - SleepingHero - 06-16-2021
(06-16-2021, 10:46 PM)Kammrath Wrote: Does what I am envisioning make any sense?
Not really because why would Finley sign up for that job if he's looking to be an actual general manager?
RE: NEWS: Donnie Nelson out as Mavs GM | Forde's Sportsology to assist search - KillerLeft - 06-16-2021
(06-16-2021, 10:46 PM)Kammrath Wrote: Does what I am envisioning make any sense?
Absolutely, and if our reading between the lines over the past few days is anything close to accurate, it seems like what you're describing is pretty much the exact situation that Donnie couldn't stomach, and what ultimately led to him either leaving or being dismissed. I'm not saying it can't work, but they'd have to find someone pretty weak to pull that off. Someone who would NEVER get it into their head that they aren't being taken seriously.
For some reason, my mind went right to Elton Brand and Daryl Morey.
I think my preference (and hope) is that they bring in some huge name with crazy swag like Ujiri who would clean house. Someone by whom even Cuban would be low-key intimidated.
RE: NEWS: Donnie Nelson out as Mavs GM | Forde's Sportsology to assist search - DallasBasketball - 06-16-2021
(06-16-2021, 10:17 PM)Kammrath Wrote: I am just suggesting that analytics (if heavily leaned on) TEND to offer a more predictable and long term hit rate than things like human observance and intuition. Ainge was a GENIUS for a number of years and now is just a guy without a job. Ainge was on a roll that made him look like he had this huge leg up on everyone, but over time he was shown to not be that special of a GM.
I do not think a successful GM has to be an analytics guy, but I think the probability of being a successful GM goes up if you are an analytics guy.
Just want to throw my hat in the ring and say I think Ainge is still a good GM despite Boston not winning a championship recently.
RE: NEWS: Donnie Nelson out as Mavs GM | Forde's Sportsology to assist search - dirkfansince1998 - 06-16-2021
(06-16-2021, 10:26 PM)Kammrath Wrote: But is he the analytics guy with the most power? And is Cuban looking to give him even more power?
I think that is telling us more about Cuban and the way he approaches things. The Chandler Parsons wannabe GM disaster showed that Cuban´s decision making is not based on analytics. Cuban probably doesn´t even know the average guy from the scouting or analytics department.
Voulgaris is not a traditional analytics guy or scout. He is a charismatic and rich gambler that made a name for himself in the basketball world. Sounds like a Cuban guy. Boring mathematician Engelmann probably isn´t as interesting.