This is not actually a THJ hate thread, although it could become one. This is about the Mavs filling the Seth Curry role from last year. THJ as starting SF isn't working, he's too small and too limited. IMO the best way to maximize THJ this year vs. last year is giving him Seth Curry's bench role. Let him be a floor-spacer off the bench who can open things up for Brunson and Burke to work inside. If he gets hot, keep him in.
shoot THJ and Powell into space
Starting Lineup
PG - Luka
SG - J.Rich
SF - DFS
PF - Johnson
C - Powell (coach won't bench him yet)
Bench
PG - Brunson
SG - Burke
SF - THJ
PF - Maxi
C - WCS
Is that any better?
I doubt Rick will do it, but I hope he gets Johnson as a point forward with Luka. Teams are doubling and wanting to take away Luka's corner pass. With J.Johnson he throws off the defensive scheme, making it unpredictable to defend. At some point Rick has to tinker with the lineup like he did last year.
(12-26-2020, 12:51 AM)jesusshuttlesworth82 Wrote: [ -> ]shoot THJ and Powell into space
I don’t agree, but I’m almost to the point where I’ll go along with this if you promise to load Brunson up with them.
I'd start Luka / JRich / DFS / Maxi / WCS but we'll see how long Rick sticks with Powell.
(12-26-2020, 09:19 AM)StepBackJay Wrote: [ -> ]Don't give up on my guy JB yet!
I know, man. You’re right. It’s too early to give up on any of these guys, for sure.
It just drives me crazy when the guy with the ball doesn’t play well. To that end, the most frustrating things from the first two games were Brunson and THJ getting the green light to create.
Maxi: Man, I really suck right now.
THJ: Hold my beer.
Well...I can think of a lot of people on this "team" who are not yet playing as a "team", but since this is a thread about THJ to the bench I would almost have to agree with that. THJ played much better last year than I expected, but he is still too much of a high volume chucker with a mediocre defense. Josh Richardson has easily leapfrogged him on the starting lineup. So...yeah...THJ to the bench.
There is no "role" for Tim between JRich and Dorian.
Unfortunately, he has more of that chucker tendency when he feels he is higher on the hierarcy among the players on the floor. So, starting him at SG (Richardson at SF) then bench him quickly, and give most of his minutes without JRich but with one of Luka or KP might do the trick (like it did in the Clippers game).
The guy has a beatiful catch and shoot jumper when his feet are set, yet he falls in love with those MJ-like gliding/flailing shots he can't make. After a few attempts, it even harms his regular shooting form.
In the Clippers game, I noticed him deliberately focusing on setting his feet and jumping straight up before shooting a couple of times, and he scored in each of those attempts. That should be his game. He only brings shotmaking to the floor, so he should play a style where he makes his jump shots over 40%.
I was saying this before season started, and nobody agreed, and It's already clear to me now from the season start that this is the case. THJ and J-Rich can't both start on the wing. It's going to be Richardson-DFS, of THJ-DFS. It is already clear from the start of season, Richardson is a lot better and two way player than THJ. Against good teams, we need a bigger wing, and only DFS can fill that role well enough as starter. So that leaves Richardson and THJ in competition. Richardson wins this hands down. THJ needs to be benched for sure, but there will be matchups when the opposing team does not have that bigger star wing, where Rich-THJ wing combo will be the better solution.
I will say this now again. Mavs have potential to form a complete starting lineup of all two way players. This gives a dimension only few other teams have. When you have 5 two way players, and still ability to score, this is very hard to break down. This team is:
Luka
Richardson
DFS
KP
Maxi
That's the only chance of us going all the way. You play your complete two way players and make them form the chemistry and form potentially the best defense in the NBA. Then you have one way players such as Powell, Burke, Brunson, THJ etc etc. on the bench and you can use them in situational role as starters sometimes, and they can come in and score when needed. These players are often good at one or few skills, but are not complete players to be starters.
To me this is clear this is by far the best lineup we can make. This is also unique as all 5 can shoot from outside, all 5 can play defense, all 5 are playing TEAM basketball. You have great blockers and rim protectors in KP and Maxi, and you have DFS and Richardson providing that hustle mentality on defense. You have rim runners in KP and Maxi. You have players that can post up in Luka and KP. And you have two players able to run the offense either as PG or point forward.
I saw THJ got subbed quickly the other day. I could see him being a nominal starter at least while KP is out. Burke is a better running mate to Luka if there's no KP. Otherwise you get shot hunting THJ.
(12-30-2020, 07:38 AM)burekemde Wrote: [ -> ]I was saying this before season started, and nobody agreed, and It's already clear to me now from the season start that this is the case. THJ and J-Rich can't both start on the wing.
I think you are wrong in your assumption, Mavs are still playing two SG. The only change that was made was to insert Burke (another SG) in line-up earlier to replace THJ. THJ than spent more time with the "bench" unit. Player that will have best day will finish each specific game. Mavs need elite shooting and Maxi/DFS doesn't provide that. Elite is not just high percentage but also ability to shoot a lot with limited space given allowed by defense.
While still extremely small sample, it wasn't a problem to play two SG. The problem was THJ played like crap in first two games.
(12-30-2020, 07:38 AM)burekemde Wrote: [ -> ]I will say this now again. Mavs have potential to form a complete starting lineup of all two way players. This gives a dimension only few other teams have. When you have 5 two way players, and still ability to score, this is very hard to break down. This team is:
Luka
Richardson
DFS
KP
Maxi
That looks good as a closing lineup: last 4 - 8 minutes in a close game. There is no reason you can't have that lineup closing, and a completely different lineup starting.
For example, Kleber has shown historically that he does not perform well with large minutes in several consecutive games. He has to be held to 28 minutes or less to get consistent production on offense. If you are going to limit him to 28 minutes, and potentially play him the last 8 minutes of the game, he only has 20 minutes available to play in the first 40 minutes of the game. That is a good reason for him not to start.
Perhaps the Mavs should start another shooter instead. How about THJ?
(12-30-2020, 12:47 PM)Sonic Wrote: [ -> ]That looks good as a closing lineup: last 4 - 8 minutes in a close game. There is no reason you can't have that lineup closing, and a completely different lineup starting.
For example, Kleber has shown historically that he does not perform well with large minutes in several consecutive games. He has to be held to 28 minutes or less to get consistent production on offense. If you are going to limit him to 28 minutes, and potentially play him the last 8 minutes of the game, he only has 20 minutes available to play in the first 40 minutes of the game. That is a good reason for him not to start.
Welcome to the forum!
Perhaps the Mavs should start another shooter instead. How about THJ?
This is a good point, there are many aspects like this also. I think the start and finish to the games are the key. I dont know if there is an official stat for this, but this is how you set the tone. This is psychological also how you impact the opponent by getting the lead. I would start this lineup, and finish with it.
(12-30-2020, 10:14 AM)omahen Wrote: [ -> ]I think you are wrong in your assumption, Mavs are still playing two SG. The only change that was made was to insert Burke (another SG) in line-up earlier to replace THJ. THJ than spent more time with the "bench" unit. Player that will have best day will finish each specific game. Mavs need elite shooting and Maxi/DFS doesn't provide that. Elite is not just high percentage but also ability to shoot a lot with limited space given allowed by defense.
While still extremely small sample, it wasn't a problem to play two SG. The problem was THJ played like crap in first two games.
Im also more inclined to see Burke playing instead of THJ. Burke plays bit more team basketball compared to THJ, although he also loves to shoot whenever possible.
We're getting too stuck on the words "starters " and on traditional position sizes and roles again. Rick doesn't play platooned lineups and THJ and JRich together don't make us too small, especially with Luka on the floor.
Also,
-3 game sample size
-THJ is one our best shooters, and works well with Luka
-3 game sample size
-KP in the lineup is about to change the dynamics being discussed
-3 game sample size
-The Mavdom Timmy hate seems to be irrational to me. "He makes too much money." Not anymore. "He's a chucker." Is a chucker someone who shoots 40% from three while playing the exact role defined for him instead of insisting on more responsibility?"
(12-30-2020, 01:47 PM)fifteenth Wrote: [ -> ]Is a chucker someone who shoots 40% from three
In his last 140 attempts from three he is shooting 36% which is basically his career percentage of 35.4%. There are signs he is regressing to the mean and that the 40% is not some new normal. The year before he shot 34% on 477 attempts.
I think THIS is what makes people nervous about him. There is not a lot of statistical evidence to call him a "40% three point shooter."
(12-30-2020, 02:45 PM)Kammrath Wrote: [ -> ]In his last 140 attempts from three he is shooting 36% which is basically his career percentage of 35.4%. There are signs he is regressing to the mean and that the 40% is not some new normal. The year before he shot 34% on 477 attempts.
I think THIS is what makes people nervous about him. There is not a lot of statistical evidence to call him a "40% three point shooter."
This makes me nervous too. He is regressing for sure.
Too much playing on his own, taking bad shots. Not passing and making flow of the offense, like the tunnel vision of Harrison Barnes. Only difference compared to Barnes, is that THJ actually knows how to pass and where, but still he just takes those contensted shots.
He is great at catch and shoot, where he has time and space. When the offense creates this opportunity for him to finish the plays off.
(12-30-2020, 01:47 PM)fifteenth Wrote: [ -> ]We're getting too stuck on the words "starters " and on traditional position sizes and roles again. Rick doesn't play platooned lineups and THJ and JRich together don't make us too small, especially with Luka on the floor.
Also,
-3 game sample size
-THJ is one our best shooters, and works well with Luka
-3 game sample size
-KP in the lineup is about to change the dynamics being discussed
-3 game sample size
-The Mavdom Timmy hate seems to be irrational to me. "He makes too much money." Not anymore. "He's a chucker." Is a chucker someone who shoots 40% from three while playing the exact role defined for him instead of insisting on more responsibility?"
I started down this path earlier today, but work intervened.
Put another way, I think the board spends too much time focused on who plays the first six minutes of each half. Until we get a third star, Carlisle is going to stagger KP and Luka for much of the game. So, quite a few minutes will be played with one star, but not the other. Who plays best with which star and how the rotation sets up for the "star reunion" at the end of each half is equally important as who gets announced with the starters. BTW, this isn't exclusive to the 20/21 Mavs. For years we saw Terry (and Ginobli) come off the bench because it set up end of game situations better than if they started. Dragic is clearly the best PG on the Miami roster and started during the playoffs. But, he's coming off the bench again in the regular season because it keeps him fresh and allows other (Herro) to try to expand their game in the mean time.
As to what should happen regarding THJ or Max or Powell or DFS...
Powell was by far the best pairing with KP among starters last season (Brunson was better, but not a starter). Maxi was the worst pairing with KP among regulars who are still here (Wright was worse). A closing lineup of KP/Maxi makes sense on paper, but a year ago it didn't actually work very well.
I think THJ is in a tough position in his contract year. Winning means Dallas has to make a priority of integrating JRich well. Plays have to be called that put him in good positions and that probably means fewer of the opportunities THJ got last season. Never fear, THJ and JRich won't share the floor for 32 minutes. They might not share the floor for half of those minutes. The good news (to your point) is KP/THJ was a good two man pairing last year.
I really think the w/o KP minutes will be Luka with Maxi/WCS (or Johnson)/JRich and Burke.
The w/o Luka minutes will be KP with Powell, Brunson, THJ and DFS.
But Carlisle is going to keep trying different pairings until they have good internal data on what works and what doesn't. That can't really even begin in earnest until KP returns.